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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
An honest Calvinist view of Total Depravity.
- Thread starter JLB
- Start date
Nothing but an attack on the Gospel of Gods Grace, man by nature is dead to God in Salvation matters. Eph 2:1-5
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
jasonc
Member
He can't be serious ,that is not true .
I can post the the devotional on the five points that are honest despite that I'm not a five pointer .
This is dishonest .
Sola scriptura is bad ?
Seriously the poster denies that ,then blasts the rcc ? That's is a Lutheran thing not a reformed.
jasonc
Member
It’s all dubbed over, probably using AI to generate the voices. You can see that what they are supposedly saying doesn’t match up with their mouths. I think it’s meant to be satire, but is going to convince at least some people because of confirmation bias.
jasonc
Member
I did notice .the most obvious part given that .is that the term age of accountability which is never taught in the reformed churches that are full five pointers . We do have members who don't fully agree in the view on that .
The other blaring thing is that abortion statement is obvious not true as both sides of the coin are anti abortion!
I should have read the description under the video—it states they used AI to promote false beliefs about total depravity.
Yes I agree. However, it’s what Calvinist’s teach.
Do you believe and therefore promote the Calvinist teaching that says, a person must first be saved, born again, regenerated before they can believe the Gospel?
JLB
I do because its True, the Gospel is hid to them that are lost so they believe not, they cant because they lost 2 Cor 4:3-4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
The lost have their minds blinded, so until that is taken care of by regeneration, they cannot and will not believe the Gospel
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16
- for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes
So please tell us how a person is born again, regenerated, saved… without hearing and believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
JLB
Thats for saved people, the Gospel is the power of God to the saved, them already believing.
See lost people the Gospel is hidden from them, their minds are blinded and they believe not 2 Cor 4:3-4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
How can a lost person whose mind is blinded, believe the Gospel ?
No. It's a gross misrepresentation of what Calvinist's teach. The irony of calling it the Honest Calvinist Conference when the whole video itself is dishonest. It's something that a supposed believer should not be doing regarding the beliefs of other believers.
Take the first speaker, Steven Lawson, for example. The video has him saying, "Normally, when we teach on the doctrine of total depravity, we rip various passages from the Bible, ignoring the context, and insist they mean something entirely different than the biblical authors intended." That's one of the dumbest arguments against other believers' beliefs that's going these days. Anyone can say that about anyone they disagree with, so it gets us nowhere. It's rhetoric that's meant to convince the unthinking believer.
Well, something needs to happen before a person can believe the gospel. The Bible makes that clear.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (ESV)
2Co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (ESV)
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (ESV)
First, Jesus was very clear that the Father must first draw people to Christ. Second, there are two problems: 1) the "gospel is veiled to those who are perishing" because their minds have been blinded to "the light of the gospel," and 2) people are "dead in . . . trespasses and sins" and follow "the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience."
To me, it seems impossible, then, that those who are spiritually dead and whose minds are veiled to the truth of the gospel, are able to choose to believe the gospel of their own "free will." It also seems that the idea of free will often presented by Arminians is false; it's a worldly, libertarian idea--that one is absolutely free to choose without hindrance. But is that the case? Biblically, no. How can it be when Paul says that unbelievers are spiritually dead and have the spirit of "the prince of the power of the air" at work in them? How can someone who is spiritually dead and is being influenced at all times by sin and Satan, with their mind veiled to the truth of the gospel, be free to choose to believe the gospel? They cannot be at all free to choose.
So, what is the answer? Paul gives it to us in Eph 2:4-5--it is solely by the grace and mercy of God. His mercy and grace are so great, that while "we were dead in our trespasses, [he] made us alive together in Christ." It is entirely a work of God from start to finish. Without the Father first drawing us to Christ and doing some sort of work in us by his Spirit, we will never believe the gospel.
Whether one must first be regenerate, I don't know, but it would depend on how one defines it. What is clear is that God must do some work first before we can even see the truth of the gospel and "choose" to believe. Maybe the answer is in between the Calvinist and Arminian camps--God's work in us first actually enables us to freely choose. Of course, that raises the notion then of, if we can see the truth of the gospel through the work of the Spirit, why would anyone then reject the gospel?
It's complicated and for me there is no clear answer, other than God must first work in us to some degree. Yet, we have enough free will, within certain bounds, that we are still morally culpable for our sins and rejecting Christ.
jasonc
Member
About where I am .
electedbyhim
Member
Being grounded in the doctrine of Christ is all that will matter on that Day.
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9
JLB
Do you believe a person must hear and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ in order to become saved?
Maybe you could at least answer this simple question.
My answer is yes, a person must hear and believe the Gospel to become saved.
JLB
electedbyhim
Member
Of course. Why do you ask such a silly question, to which you would know the answer if you've ever read anything I've posted in this thread?
They do, but if that's all there is, then you're begging the question by assuming that they are not spiritually dead and don't first need a work of the Holy Spirit in order to be able to respond, much less just to see the truth of the gospel.