Animals as food.....

[Mike]

Along with this thought I then wonder about those animals that are now carnivores. Why did God change their plan from omnivore to carnivore even though they are not guilty of sin?

Hey, this is a good point, IMO.

Animals in the wild didn't have a meeting to determine what they could & couldn't eat (that I've heard of ). So, they were plant eaters in the beginning and then had the instinct to begin doing a very natural thing: hunt other wild. I'm open to other thoughts on this matter, but this seems to be an independent indicator that their nature was changed.

 

[l'Chante]

I'm vegan. Not because of anything that stands anywhere in the Holy Bible, but because I'm grossed out by anything that no longer has a pulse. I don't care if it's road-kill or a steak on my plate. I'm not, I repeat, I'm NOT going to put any dead animal in my mouth. Ew! (Yes, I'm covered my goose bumps now) As I said before; nature and I have this agreement - I don't eat their children and they don't eat mine. Thus far it's working perfectly for both of us. If I feel like a taste of the 'other white meat', I'll smooch my fiancé. That is as close as it will ever come.

Another thing that I have a problem with is body fluids. This of course includes anything that dropped out of a chicken's private place or came out of a cow's best asset. It's not going into my mouth!!! Not debatable.
My health issues have very little to do with what I eat, and a lot with bad genes. As a matter of fact; I don't consume any of the hormones that animals are fed, no cholesterol and no preservatives, colorants and flavorants that meat and processed meat contains. I get plenty of vitamins and fiber, and I'm doing great. Amen

 

[Pard]

L'c, are you aware that you can eat some animals when they still have a pulse? The Japanese excel at such delicacies. There is a Japanese place downt he road from my church and I went there and they gave me a live octopus to eat and it was really weird, but it did have a pulse still

And Tim, you get the burgers I'll get the Bratwurst?

 

[l'Chante]

AAARGH!! Ian, you horrid, horrid, person you!

 

[warhorse]

I saw this by Drew on the "Animal Rights" thread, and decided it was a topic all it's own and made this thread...



I know that some Christians do indeed believe, in spite of Genesis 9, that it is sin to eat animals.

Yes, in Genesis 9, God did give the animals to be eaten...but, was that just a "temporary" thing...something to keep Noah and the others alive until they could plant crops and harvest them?

Since God created all as vegetarians...animals included...doesn't it stand to reason that, although it is permitted to eat them...it is better to follow God's original plan and be vegetarian?

Thoughts?

Wasnt it God himself who slew a calf to cover the nakedness of adam and eve. I am not sure God would consider animals as alive, as man is the only creature that he breathed life into.

 

[Elijah674]

And again.... God allowed us to eat meat. Who are you, oh man, to say otherwise? So, I'll ask the same question to you as "Christ_empowered". What are you going to replace your diet with if you have no meats?

Why not ask an vegetarian or a vegan?? Just 'search the web' with vegan diet and get 'some' Hos. 4:6 True documented 'facts'. We have the same problems of overeating as do non vedgtarians, yet, never does that enter in as needing flesh food. All natural food as in creation will supply mankinds needs. Even natural vitimans if needed.

And Legalists? The total Vegan diet was the diet God gave Adan & Eve and on, up until the flood. And perhaps it might be understood that 'these' legalists were not Jews, nor were they ever to sin! (meaning that they would live forever being be 'legalists'!;))

Even after sin & the flood, God WARNED, but did give His OK to stay on dangerous ground in eating flesh! (freedom for as long as they wanted?) [CLEAN FOOD FOR FLESH ONLY]. Gen. 9:5 finds that these ones 'lives' were REQUIRED by God to be SHORTENED when this diet was followed!

And the 'fruite' in bottom/line, is found with the lifespan going from around 1000 year olds to todays age. But Gen. 11 tell's the Truth of the Lord's Words.

One of my wifes best friend lives alone, has good eyesight, excellent weight, very high IQ, drives, and is a fine Christian that everyone would like who is a Christian, and is just short of 100 years. (In her low 90's) She is vegan & not just vegetarian. (like my wife & I are)

And NO, one could live to be 100 + and still be lost, yet, what Christian would want to die before they are useless? Or saved?? (Matt. 28:18-20 or Lukewarm of Rev. 3:16??) Surely ones Psalms 19:13's 'presumptous' loss of years will find soul's that have had no opportunity to Know of Christ!

And to live a knowingly shortened presumptous life is not sin?? 1 Cor. 3:16-23

--Elijah

 

[handy]

Wasnt it God himself who slew a calf to cover the nakedness of adam and eve. I am not sure God would consider animals as alive, as man is the only creature that he breathed life into.

Slaying the animals as sacrifice is a wholly different subject than eating them. That animals were sacrificed as a result of sin is clear. (And even then, this is the result of the fall, not what God created them for.)

 

[GojuBrian]

ok,so what exactly is a cow's natural habitat? and a chickens? they arent really good predators but would be prey and what besides wolves eat them? so in some the livestock for its own sake since some predators arent in large amount dont eat livestock in mass.

i do know the coyote kills cows,chickens and sheep and goat.still there would have to be a balence and agian where would these things roam?especially a chicken?

ROFL!!! A cow's natural habitat,lol.

Well, millions of years ago cows had teeth and claws. They hunted the peta. The peta was a leaf eating animule of the worst order and deserved their cow bite death.
Since they were domesticated they evolved hooves and grinders for eating the hay we feed them.
The chickens natural habitat is in my freezer.

Save a cow, EAT a PETA!!!

I'll bet a cow and chicken hunt would be boring, but you would get your limit!

 

[tim-from-pa]

And Tim, you get the burgers I'll get the Bratwurst?

Did I show you this picture yet of a place in Germany that sells huge amounts of food? Here's their hamburger:

 

[th1b.taylor]

WOW!!! What a thread Dora! I'll have to ring in here with the truth, I'm very happy that God gave the meat of the animals for food. I have often spent eight hours smoking a Turkey for thanksgiving and being from Texas and the Great Southwest, what would the world be without Bar-B-Que?

To debate this issue can be productive to understanding. One of the greatest converts of mine is a Vegan and I love the entire family, greatly! They all know and understand that there is liberty in Christ and we have no disagreement! They have left England and are on the field in Africa, translating the scriptures for various peoples there.

Now specifics! The argument that the Genesis permission to eat the animals was temporary is, at best, ill conceived! I have said it so many times I can not possibly enumerate the times but I'll say again here, "You cannot understand any scripture without the light of all scripture shinning on it!" (Acts 10:10-13) Peter is commanded by God to kill and to eat. That is all any need to see to understand and if one has submitted to God they are indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God and as long as they do not quince the Spirit they know!
<div_prefs id="div_prefs"></div_prefs>

 

[handy]

Now specifics! The argument that the Genesis permission to eat the animals was temporary is, at best, ill conceived! I have said it so many times I can not possibly enumerate the times but I'll say again here, "You cannot understand any scripture without the light of all scripture shinning on it!" (Acts 10:10-13) Peter is commanded by God to kill and to eat. That is all any need to see to understand and if one has submitted to God they are indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God and as long as they do not quince the Spirit they know!

Yes, I agree. And to those who believe this was just a dream to signify the gospel being opened to the Gentiles...OK (although the gentiles were never considered "unclean")...

But another "clincher" is that Jesus Himself ate meat...and He wouldn't have done so if there was anything inherently sinful about it.

 

[handy]

Tim-from-pa, are you sure that place is in Germany? A German pub with Budweiser signs and Steelers and Pirates memorabilia?

And especially a hamburger that could feed an entire third world nation?

Look's incredibly American to me!

 

[Drew]

Drew, it's no assumption. Those here who are pushing others to follow dietary laws as part of Christianity are way out of line. Total legalism.

This assertion needs to be supported. You cannot simply assume that people who advocate for certain dietary practices are "legalistic".

I have made an argument, you are making assertions. And my argument is that Christians are called to participate in moving God's redemptive plan to its ultimate destination. And since it would appear that death will be done away with, what better way to start than to cut down on needless animal death by changing the way we eat.

 

[Drew]

And again.... God allowed us to eat meat. Who are you, oh man, to say otherwise?

Not a good argument - God allowed the Jews to get divorced. Does that mean we should get divorces?

So, I'll ask the same question to you as "Christ_empowered". What are you going to replace your diet with if you have no meats?

I believe it has been clearly established than one can have a healthy meat-free diet.

 

[Drew]

Matthew 15
<SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV1984-23650>16</SUP> “Are you still so dull?†Jesus asked them. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV1984-23651>17</SUP> “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV1984-23652>18</SUP> But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’ <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV1984-23653>19</SUP> For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV1984-23654>20</SUP> These are what make a man ‘unclean’; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean.’â€

It really seems to me that if this were an issue dear to God's Heart, we wouldn't have Jesus saying what He said and we wouldn't have Peter receiving his revelation. The Word is very consistent in focusing on the heart of a person. If eating meat was not the best option, wouldn't there be something to draw upon other than the first 8 chapters of Genesis??

I politely suggest you are misunderstanding what Jesus is talking about. He is most certainly not making any kind of declaration about "health" issues - He is addressing the provisions of the Law of Moses, declaring that the time of "unclean foods" has come to an end.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with matters of health. It was the Law of Moses, including the kosher food laws, that marked out the Jew as "special". By declaring that the Law of Moses no longer applies, Jesus is really saying "The Kingdom of God is available to all, not just Jews".

Jesus is not making any kind of judgement on matters of diet and health.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Not a good argument - God allowed the Jews to get divorced. Does that mean we should get divorces?

This is a strawman argument. God explained in Malachi and in the gospels his position on divorce. So, stay on the subject, please.

 

[Drew]

This is a strawman argument. God explained in Malachi and in the gospels his position on divorce. So, stay on the subject, please.

My objection is not a strawman.

The point is that we have precedent for God "allowing" something that is less than ideal. He allowed divorces, even though this not God's ideal.

You have argued that since God allows us to eat meat, "who are you to say otherwise". From the divorce example, we know that what we are "allowed" is not necessarily what we should actually do.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Tim-from-pa, are you sure that place is in Germany? A German pub with Budweiser signs and Steelers and Pirates memorabilia?

And especially a hamburger that could feed an entire third world nation?

Look's incredibly American to me!

Yes, it's called Waldgeist. My brother and sister-in-law were over there when they visited Germany.

 

[tim-from-pa]

For your reference Drew, so that nothing is lost in the conversation, this is what I am reacting to:

Then Adam and Eve fell and we are "allowed" to eat meat. Fine. But the Biblical narrative is going somewhere - to the defeat of death and the restoration of Eden. If this is so, then we, the church, should participate in that project, abstaining from meat.

OK, I'll admit that you are not dogmatically saying not to eat meat, but the tone in all honesty does suggest the church should strive to abstain from meat, a position I believe is false and not biblically based. I believe most here would interpret your statement that way.

Actually, there will be a time when people will be vegetarians again --- in the Millennium. Nobody, no church, no PETA, no animal rights, or any other planet savior has to work so hard trying to push that. It will come eventually. But for the time being, we live in this age.

 

[Drew]

OK, I'll admit that you are not dogmatically saying not to eat meat, but the tone in all honesty does suggest the church should strive to abstain from meat, a position I believe is false and not biblically based. I believe most here would interpret your statement that way.

Well I am indeed leaning to suggest that we strive to not eat meat. And I have provided a Biblical argument for this. And I believe that the "we are allowed to eat meat" line does not really counter that argument. You say you believe my position is unBiblical, but I see no argument.

Actually, there will be a time when people will be vegetarians again --- in the Millennium. Nobody, no church, no PETA, no animal rights, or any other planet savior has to work so hard trying to push that. It will come eventually. But for the time being, we live in this age.

The problem with this argument is that, I suggest, you overlook the Biblical mandate that we are to anticipate this future state of the world by trying to model it now. Your line of thinking would seem to be this: "God is going to do something good in the future, but let's not do anything to achieve that now".

That seems a little odd, don't you think. Other people use this same line of reasoning re guns. They argue thus: "God will get rid of guns when Jesus comes again, but in the meantime 'lock and load'"

The problem with this shoud be obvious - if "beating swords into plowshares" is a good part of the future world, why not start that project now.

If you want, I can provide more Biblical defence as to why we are indeed to "model" the future, fully redeemed world in the present.