Apostasy

[Davies]

I wanted to share a quote from an article written by Ron Graham that I thought was very clear on what apostasy is.

"In the Greek the word for falling away is “apostasia†or apostasy, and it actually means to refuse to accept a certain belief or faith. It refers to those who have forsaken or rejected the true faith by turning to false doctrines, doctrines of demons. Any teaching that denies the deity of Jesus Christ is a false satanic doctrine. The religions of Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah Witness, Scientology, as well as many more, all fall under the umbrella of doctrines of demons. Yet they are convinced that they have the true faith, the true doctrine, thus they promote falsehoods and lead many others down the same destructive path. The only possible way for someone to be led astray is to neglect the study of the truth – in the infallible Word of God. Everything we are taught by others must be filtered through the Word of God. The scriptures are our only link to truth and our shield protecting us from the deceptions of the doctrines of demons. One of the worst corrupting influences is our own feelings. Feelings can be deceptive, filter every feeling trough the Word of God. "

A couple of things, apostasy includes the rejection of what is true, and we all know the truth is not relative especially when it comes to God. When we reject the truth, it's because we have accepted doctrines of demons. That wasn't very subtle of Ron, but what else do you call believing in a lie? And finally, what struck me the most is that feelings are deceptive and are the wrong filter to use when trying to determine the truth. I think this may be one of the primary reasons a person rejects the truth of Scripture, especially the parts that are clear for everyone to understand.

I decided to check another article he had on the subject and found this quote:

"God, in His word, isn’t condemning those who honestly misinterpret a verse or make a mistake, but who are open to correction. He’s speaking about blatant and persistent false representation of His word. Lying for the purpose of fulfilling one’s own agenda, such as monetary gain, that’s the heretical teaching God hates."

I think he provides a good balance when interpreting the Bible incorrectly. If we aren't open to correction based on what the Bible says, then I think that's when we are on very dangerous ground. http://www.raptureready.com/featured/graham/g105.html

- Davies

1 Timothy 4:1
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Great Apostasy

4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

- Davies

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"In the Greek the word for falling away is “apostasia” or apostasy, and it actually means to refuse to accept a certain belief or faith. It refers to those who have forsaken or rejected the true faith..."

13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." (Luke 8:13 NIV)

And instead of simply acknowledging that they don't like the demands of the faith they clothe that rejection of the truth with academic reasonings. That's why I say just strip it down to what it's all about--this matter of sin. Apostates and unbelievers are still in the great debate with God about what should be good and evil. It's impossible to be saved while still engaged in that debate with God.

 

[Aardverk]

I wanted to share a quote from an article written by Ron Graham .............
"God, in His word, isn’t condemning those who honestly misinterpret a verse or make a mistake, but who are open to correction. ......."

I think he provides a good balance when interpreting the Bible incorrectly. If we aren't open to correction based on what the Bible says, then I think that's when we are on very dangerous ground.

Hi Davies, sorry for the delay. I wanted to take you back to the 'evil heart' concept and your quote from Ron Graham is just here as an intro.

We ALL interpret scripture. Some of us will get it right and some will get it wrong. We should ALL, in my opinion, keep an open mind OR we can never be corrected. The problem is recognizing WHO can correct us. IF I were to accept someone, you for example, as a greater authority than me, I would simply have to accept whatever you said as correction. Unfortunately, we each, very rapidly, perceive beliefs in another person that we do not share and any idea of 'authority' disappears instantly. We have all seen two or more highly intelligent, devout people arguing here on matters which may appear trivial.

It is difficult to give clear example but let me try to illustrate my point. There are many 'rules' in the bible. Most of them we accept and try to live by but many are simply ignored. Silly example maybe - you should stand in my presence but I bet you never do stand in the presence of an old person. I bet you never kill anyone for working on the Sabbath either nor kill anyone for all the other reasons we are instructed to kill people.

The point I am trying to make is that the Bible should definitely NOT be taken literally. We have to live our lives in the present, not according to some rules written by an unknown person centuries or even millenia ago.

Now - what about this accusation of me, or many others, having an evil heart just because of what some unknown person wrote in a letter (Hebrews). I really don't want to do an analysis of Hebrews but I will just remind you that it refers to what the writer was told by an apostle. The writer is not claiming to be an apostle. Yes, I do know that many people think it was written by Paul. That does not make it a fact, nor would it make the instruction any more valid.

I feel, and 'feeling' is the best I can offer, that we should lead our lives, as much as possible in the model demonstrated by Jesus i.e. in love, peace and tolerance. Can you imagine Jesus pointing his finger at someone who did not believe [insert what you like] and declaring that he/she had an evil heart? If you can, your image of Jesus is very different from my image of Jesus.

We sometimes, always perhaps, have to decide what God would like us to do. We like to feel that we know what God wants, that he has given us some sort of message via our instincts yet we MUST question that instinct. In another thread recently Jethro Bodine made the point that IF his belief of guidance from God actually upset his wife, that would demonstate to him that his belief in that guidance was obviously wrong because God would not want him to upset his wife (apologies Jethro if I have misrepresented what you said). Now, I don't necessarily agree with Jethro's interpretation but what a sensible check-mechanism to impose on yourself. IF we have no check-mechanisms, we can so easily lead ourselves astray and accuse people of having evil hearts even though they may not have a shred of evil in their being. Did Mother Theresa have an evil heart? She certainly had doubts!

I will stop there for fear of becoming too long winded and making too many points at once. My message is simply - don't condemn people for believing something different from you. Jesus never did that, so why should you?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We sometimes, always perhaps, have to decide what God would like us to do. We like to feel that we know what God wants, that he has given us some sort of message via our instincts yet we MUST question that instinct. In another thread recently Jethro Bodine made the point that IF his belief of guidance from God actually upset his wife, that would demonstate to him that his belief in that guidance was obviously wrong because God would not want him to upset his wife (apologies Jethro if I have misrepresented what you said).

Almost.

If doing something I think God wants me to do violates something else God said to do then I know I'm not hearing from him. In the case of my wife, if I think God is telling me to do something but doing it will cause actual harm to my wife (not just upset her) then I know I'm not hearing from God. So you see this isn't really about instinct. It's about knowing the commands of God and keeping yourself within those commands in all things. That takes the vagueness and inconsistency out of how some people think God leads people. It's not as vague and subject to the person's own circumstances and desires as you may be suggesting.


Let's talk about who Jesus would call evil, and some of these first covenant laws you brought up.

I'll be back.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I feel, and 'feeling' is the best I can offer, that we should lead our lives, as much as possible in the model demonstrated by Jesus i.e. in love, peace and tolerance. Can you imagine Jesus pointing his finger at someone who did not believe [insert what you like] and declaring that he/she had an evil heart? If you can, your image of Jesus is very different from my image of Jesus.

Jesus said this:

"11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" (Matthew NIV)

"23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name. 24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. 25 He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person." (John 2:23-25 NIV)


Jesus knew full well that men are evil by nature.

Perhaps the defining mark of the apostate/unbeliever is their inability to accept God's condemnation of them as evil. This is what I was getting at before. When you boil it down, the fundamental resistance that unbelievers have is they can't acknowledge their responsibility concerning sin guilt. I believe this is what motivates their mission to redefine God and the Bible, through all the various ways that they do that.

The bottom line is, they simply cannot accept what the Bible says about sin, righteousness, and the judgment to come, so they invent their own version of truth about these things. This failure to acknowledge sin guilt is what keeps them from being able to believe and trust in the forgiveness of sin. That is why they can't believe in order to be saved. You have to accept the truth about sin guilt before God grants the faith to believe in and accept his gracious gift of forgiveness for sin guilt. Until the great debate about sin ends in a person they will be locked out from the grace of salvation.

I honestly believe the best witnessing technique there is is to get right to the heart of the matter and ask the individual which sin is it that they think is unreasonably held against mankind and which they think no one should be held responsible for. It'll save a lot of wasted time and effort dancing with the various other topics unbelievers bring up to cloud the discussion about faith in God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And as far as this tolerance thing goes. Does tolerance mean allowing people to redefine sin? I say, 'no'. Tolerance means giving people lots of space and time to come to grips with the truth about sin, righteousness, and the judgment to come. God does that. We should, too. It's called 'long suffering'. But that hardly means telling someone God will dumb his message down to accommodate someone's challenge to the justice of His definition of sin.

 

[Aardverk]

Jesus said this:

"11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" (Matthew NIV)

Perhaps the defining mark of the apostate/unbeliever is their inability to accept God's condemnation of them as evil. This is what I was getting at before. When you boil it down, the fundamental resistance that unbelievers have is they can't acknowledge their responsibility concerning sin guilt. I believe this is what motivates their mission to redefine God and the Bible, through all the various ways that they do that.

The bottom line is, they simply cannot accept what the Bible says about sin, righteousness, and the judgment to come, so they invent their own version of truth about these things.

There are two major issues here.
1. You misunderstand the nature of most apostates.
2. You are judging your fellow man against your own, questionable, interpretation of scripture.

(To be consistent with yours, all my quotes are from Matthew NIV)

1. You have made your own mind up about why apostates exist. You maintain that they have a wish to redefine sin whereas in reality, they simply have a crisis of confidence, a crisis of belief. For suffering that crisis, you wish to condemn the poor man/woman as having an 'evil heart'. Do you really think that is wise and helpful? God does not condemn people for having a crisis if confidence, he condemns them for deliberately being evil - that is very different! It is certainly not your place to judge your fellow man.
7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 7:2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

2. You have quoted Matthew 7:11 as if it supported your view. It does not! There is nothing that even remotely sounds as if Jesus was condemning people for lack of faith, for lack of certainty. I would say the complete opposite. Take John the Baptist; even he was uncertain about who Jesus was despite wondrous events that he had personally witnessed. Did Jesus condemn him? No, quite the contrary, he said that John had risen the highest of all men.

3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

4:12 When Jesus heard that John had been put in prison, he returned to Galilee. 11:1 After Jesus had finished instructing his twelve disciples, he went on from there to teach and preach in the towns of Galilee. 11:2 When John heard in prison what Christ was doing, he sent his disciples 11:3 to ask him, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?" 11:4 Jesus replied, "Go back and report to John what you hear and see. 11:11 I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Don't you understand that you are insulting people when you accuse them in the way that you do? Do remember that we are told not to insult people.

5:22 ....... But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. 5.23 "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 5.24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

You insult your brothers by saying that they have evil hearts and you are driving them away from Christianity and God. Try instead to support and encourage them and show them the love and tolerance that Jesus would. Finally, even if you think you know what is in the mind of God, do not presume that you do. You can not know my mind let alone God's.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You insult your brothers by saying that they have evil hearts and you are driving them away from Christianity and God.

I realized I had an evil heart and it turned me TO God and Christianity. What people think about what the Bible says about sin is the great dividing line between those who are Christians and those who are not. Pride is ultimately what keeps a person out of the kingdom.

And you're proving my point. I made the charge that people who reject Christianity can't bring themselves to acknowledge sin guilt, and that they, along with every single person born into this world, has an evil heart. Those who can't admit that can't be saved. And they go to great lengths sometimes to prove themselves correct regarding the sin/evil heart issue. Either through debate, or the effort of 'righteous' deeds--which by the way, they probably learned about from Christianity. How ironic.

Try instead to support and encourage them and show them the love and tolerance that Jesus would.

Supporting and encouraging them means teaching them to acknowledge the truth about sin and man's sinful nature, not changing that truth to accommodate them. And then telling them the good news about the forgiveness of sin through faith in Jesus' sacrifice, and the giving of a new heart and a new nature through the Holy Spirit to those who unconditionally acknowledge their guilt and ask for forgiveness.

This is Christianity. If you don't want to accept it that's fine. But you should understand what Christianity is all about and make it clear why you don't accept it. So far you're making it clear you simply do not accept what the Bible says that every man is sinful and guilty before God and in need of a new heart. That is a defining mark of an unbeliever. How can a person ask for, and receive forgiveness for something they are sure they are not guilty of? That's why they can not be saved.

 

[Davies]

Hi Aardverk,

Though I believe in my heart what the Bible says about the heart of man, and I could quote many verses to support my point, I don't have to look any further than myself to know that evil exists. Of course, the case is made clearer when we Jesus bleeding to death on the cross and suffocating from the weight of His own body hanging from the nails in His hands and feet. What do you think that picture of Jesus dieing in your place says about you? I know what it says about me. The longer I live, the better the understanding I receive. What do I learn from the cross? Without Jesus' sacrifice, I would be condemned with no hope because of the evil I have done, especially after coming to know Christ. If anything, having read the Bible and knowing what is right and wrong, I'm even more guilty of greater crimes than the unbeliever. I have entertained the thought of saying,'Yes Lord, I deserve to go to hell for forever,' and when I think that's not true, I prove to myself I have sin in me. Thank God for His forgiveness and tender mercies that He died in our place. We won't go to heaven because we are good people, but we will go to heaven because we are bad people who have been forgiven by the good God. Pray that we will be found faithful to Him.

- Davies

 

[Aardverk]

I realized I had an evil heart and it turned me TO God and Christianity.

OK, so you had an evil heart but that does not mean that everyone with doubts has an evil heart.

Think again Jethro about the apostates. You have it in your head that they are rejecting YOUR beliefs but that is not necessarily so. What if the apostate is/was a Muslim, a Mormon, a Jew, a Catholic, a Cathar, a Lollard, etc and their ongoing, entirely laudable and conscientious study of theology prompted them to leave their particular religion or their particular denomination because they had arrived at a greater level of knowledge and understanding. They are therefore undoubtedly apostates but where does that make them evil??? Clearly it does not.

You don't seem to have recognized yet that by labelling someone 'evil', which will always sound stupid and offensive to that person, you are driving them away. If that is what YOU want to do, OK, there is nothing I can do to stop you. Just ask God if he wants YOU to drive people away from Christianity. Remember, the fault is certainly not always with the apostate, it is often with the clergy and the congregation.7:5 ..... first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. And of course 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

What people think about what the Bible says about sin is the great dividing line between those who are Christians and those who are not.

Actually there are bigger divisions between different Christian denominations. Do not kid yourself that YOU are the only Christian who has the right answers. Pride?

And you're proving my point. I made the charge that people who reject Christianity can't bring themselves to acknowledge sin guilt, and that they, along with every single person born into this world, has an evil heart.

What is this - some sort or 'original sin' analogy? No, Jethro, we are not born with an evil heart. Again, you are making gross assumptions and adopting a very clear 'holier than thou' attitude just because we have some differences in belief. I admire your confidence but you are coming over rather like someone trying to demonstrate their holiness! 6:5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.

Tell me Jethro, when did Jesus say that people with doubts have evil hearts? He never criticized anyone with doubts but YOU do. He never drove anyone away but YOU do. Instead of being a fisher of men, you are poisoning the water! Think carefully.

Supporting and encouraging them means teaching them to acknowledge the truth about sin and man's sinful nature, not changing that truth to accommodate them. And then telling them the good news about the forgiveness of sin through faith in Jesus' sacrifice, and the giving of a new heart and a new nature through the Holy Spirit to those who unconditionally acknowledge their guilt and ask for forgiveness.

This is Christianity. If you don't want to accept it that's fine.

No, that is YOUR form of Christianity. A form that many find thoroughly objectionable. Sadly there are plenty of people who try to impose their own beliefs on others but there are also many more who are open, warm, loving and tolerant who wish no more than to help their fellow man and to follow the example of Jesus. They are the Christians who get my admiration.

But you should understand what Christianity is all about and make it clear why you don't accept it.

I have explained several times why I no longer call myself a Christian - basically, I can not honestly recite the creed and I certainly do not accept the bible as literally true - and very clearly, neither do you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro:
"Supporting and encouraging them means teaching them to acknowledge the truth about sin and man's sinful nature, not changing that truth to accommodate them. And then telling them the good news about the forgiveness of sin through faith in Jesus' sacrifice, and the giving of a new heart and a new nature through the Holy Spirit to those who unconditionally acknowledge their guilt and ask for forgiveness.

This is Christianity. If you don't want to accept it that's fine."


No, that is YOUR form of Christianity. A form that many find thoroughly objectionable. Sadly there are plenty of people who try to impose their own beliefs on others but there are also many more who are open, warm, loving and tolerant who wish no more than to help their fellow man and to follow the example of Jesus. They are the Christians who get my admiration.

No, this really is the gospel taught in the Bible. It's not loving to change the message so as not to offend people, but then see them cast out of God's presence at the Judgment.

Unless you're really wanting to talk about this in the hope you can overcome your doubt I really don't want to talk about this to you. I made the decision long ago that I fit in best in helping those who already believe grow in their relationship with God, not in helping unbelievers establish that relationship. I made an exception with you, but you're going down the usual road of anger and offense so I'm not going to go any further.

 

[Aardverk]

No, this really is the gospel taught in the Bible. It's not loving to change the message so as not to offend people, but then see them cast out of God's presence at the Judgment.

Unless you're really wanting to talk about this in the hope you can overcome your doubt I really don't want to talk about this to you. I made the decision long ago that I fit in best in helping those who already believe grow in their relationship with God, not in helping unbelievers establish that relationship. I made an exception with you, but you're going down the usual road of anger and offense so I'm not going to go any further.

No, I'm not angry Jethro nor am I offended. I have encountered this judgmental yet self righteous attitude far too many times to be angry. I'm sad though; sad for you and for your victims that you don't even feel able to justify your behavior in insulting those unfortunate people with doubts. Just be clear, that is NOT what Jesus told us to do. Hebrews is simply an anonymous letter that somehow got selected for inclusion. You know that as well as I do.

7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 7:2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."​

I don't think you understand those words yet but you will Jethro, you will.

 

[Davies]

7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 7:2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."​

I don't think you understand those words yet but you will Jethro, you will.

Good morning Aardverk,

Don't forget Matthew 7:6.

Matthew 7:6
New King James Version (NKJV)
6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

I think it's important to be able to know when someone isn't interested in the Gospel at all. It's not a judgment to learn when someone is not interested in what the Bible has to say, and when the communication seems to be only going one way, like an argument, then it's better to let it be. I think it's the lack of communication that Matthew 7:6 refers to, not a disparagement of the person you keep the Gospel from.

Your responses leave the perception you are angry.

- Davies

 

[Aardverk]

Matthew 7:6 New King James Version (NKJV)
6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

I think it's important to be able to know when someone isn't interested in the Gospel at all. It's not a judgment to learn when someone is not interested in what the Bible has to say, and when the communication seems to be only going one way, like an argument, then it's better to let it be. I think it's the lack of communication that Matthew 7:6 refers to, not a disparagement of the person you keep the Gospel from.

Your responses leave the perception you are angry.

I have no idea why you think I am angry. Is it simply because I have the temerity to disagree? You refer to communication only going one way - which way do you think that was?

You refer to someone, me presumably, not being interested in the Gospel yet I have studied theology for well over half a century and I still do. I am hardly a disinterested person Davies. That being the case, if someone not only disregards my considered view but also accuses me of having an evil heart, I feel that it is reasonable for that person to justify their accusation. Don't you? If not, it is simply an insult which WILL drive most people with wavering beliefs away from Christianity and from God - and that is what this thread is about - apostasy.

Matthew 7:6 is simply one of those many passages with circular arguments presented to us in the bible. Effectively it is saying, if someone does not accept or recognize the truth of the Bible (or insert what you wish) that they are a dog or a swine, unclean and unable to appreciate things. I am sure you appreciate that is a deliberate choice of words, and there are many similar passages, that are written simply as a trap that the waverer, apostate, doubter etc can not argue against. It is a simple and deliberate 'Catch 22'. That does not of course make the words factual.

Of course, the whole Bible is true, we know that because it says so in the Bible I could write down something along those lines about my beliefs - would that make my beliefs any more reliable? Of course it would not. You only believe that the Bible is true if you choose to believe it is true. Many people claim that they believe every word and then they ignore great passages of it, for very good reason - it is obviously wrong to kill people left, right and center just because some unknown person wrote down the instructions to do so a couple of thousand years ago.

If we care for our fellow man, we should bend over backwards to help and support someone having doubts about their faith. Accusing someone with doubts of having an evil heart is, to me, an evil thing to do. Anyone I talk to who is having doubts, I advise to stay in their church and just don't take some people's insults and self righteousness too seriously - they have no more idea of the truth than you do. Despite apparent certainty from some people, no one can be certain of anything to do with faith - that is why it is called 'faith'.

 

[Davies]

I have studied theology for well over half a century and I still do.

Having studied the Bible as much as you have, you should understand the heart of man is evil.

Jeremiah 17:9
New King James Version (NKJV)
9 “The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?

I think Jethro has shared some compelling Scriptures as well with Jesus own words.

You only believe that the Bible is true if you choose to believe it is true.

This statement is popularly known as post-modernism. Just because anyone chooses to believe the Bible doesn't make it true. When it comes to reality, the truth is no relative. Perhaps are feelings are relative, but belief doesn't equal truth.

Many people claim that they believe every word and then they ignore great passages of it, for very good reason - it is obviously wrong to kill people left, right and center just because some unknown person wrote down the instructions to do so a couple of thousand years ago.

That's a straw man.

If we care for our fellow man, we should bend over backwards to help and support someone having doubts about their faith. Accusing someone with doubts of having an evil heart is, to me, an evil thing to do.

No one is accusing anyone of having an evil heart. It's already an established fact that man has an evil heart, or else Jesus died in vain on the cross.

Despite apparent certainty from some people, no one can be certain of anything to do with faith - that is why it is called 'faith'.

By Faith We Understand

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

You have a very different definition of faith then from what the Bible says.

- Davies

 

[Aardverk]

Having studied the Bible as much as you have, you should understand the heart of man is evil.

“The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9 (NKJV)

Having studied people and theology, including the Bible, I have no reason to believe that 'the heart of man is evil'. That really is not the case for all men by any means Davies and that is not what Jeremiah 17.9 means. Most commentaries agree that 17.9 is NOT a generalization but is talking about those individuals who do have an evil heart. That conclusion is confirmed by 17.10:
"I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve."Jeremiah 17:10 (NIV)
In other words, it is NOT up to you to judge your fellow man. See also: Matthew 7:1-2

Just because anyone chooses to believe the Bible doesn't make it true.

Agreed.

That's a straw man.

That is not an argument, it is an evasion.

No one is accusing anyone of having an evil heart.

Both you and Jethro accused me and any apostate of having an evil heart - or did I misunderstand both of you? You are also accusing mankind generally of having evil hearts.

By Faith We Understand

Please have a look in a dictionary.

You have a very different definition of faith then from what the Bible says.

Have a look in a dictionary if you need a definition OR you will get into a Catch-22 circular argument again.

If you wish to continue insulting and rejecting people with wavering faith, sadly I can not stop you. I ask that you consider though - is that what Jesus would have done?

Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. Matthew 5:22 (NIV) and of course Jeremiah 17:10 (above).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Like I said, unbelievers and apostates who struggle with believing are still engaged in the great debate with the Bible about the definition of sin and evil and/or God's fairness and justice in holding man accountable for it.

The Christian faith starts with the unconditional acknowledgement of sin. People who can't do that can't be saved. The grace of forgiveness can not be given to someone who won't acknowledge their sin guilt. Redefining sin does not make sin guilt go away. The only way to be forgiven is to openly and unreservedly confess your sin guilt and trust in God's promise to remove that sin guilt and declare you righteous and give you a new heart. That is the gospel. That is what the Bible says. That is why this forum exists.

 

[Aardverk]

The Christian faith starts with the unconditional acknowledgement of sin.

The problem is Jethro that you are only considering your particular brand of Christianity. MANY Christians have very different views to you. You obviously think you are right, they think they are right. Who do you think you are to judge them?

Just because one can interpret something in the Bible to be a sin does not necessarily mean that it is - and visa versa. I would go further and maintain that a given action may be a sin for one person but not for another. Simple example - stealing food to save a starving family or stealing food just to save money. Life is not all black and white and you are not the judge - God is.

People who can't do that can't be saved.

That's pretty harsh on you if you have got it wrong Jethro! Again, who do you think you are to judge when the Bible tells you over and over not to judge others. That is for God alone; the Bible says so and on matters of sin I happen to agree without reservation.

The only way to be forgiven is to openly and unreservedly confess your sin guilt and trust in God's promise to remove that sin guilt and declare you righteous and give you a new heart. That is the gospel. That is what the Bible says. That is why this forum exists.

There you go, judging again!

The forum is actually for discussing things Jethro. If everyone could rely 100% on you being right, and we can't, there would be no need for the forum, we would just have to do and believe whatever you tell us.

As you know, I do not believe everything that you believe, and probably no one else believes precisely what you believe either. God will be my judge Jethro and yours too. If you have driven people away from God by judging them and insulting them, you will undoubtedly get what you deserve. You will be judged by your deeds and by what is in your heart and mind - the Bible tells us so. I ask you again - would Jesus insult someone with doubts? John the Baptist had doubts even though he had seen the wondrous events when he baptized Jesus. Do I need to remind you what He said about John the Baptist?

Finally, as this thread is meant to be about apostasy, do you really feel justified in driving doubters away rather than showing love and understanding? Do you justify insulting them just because you feel they are less worthy than you?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The problem is Jethro that you are only considering your particular brand of Christianity. MANY Christians have very different views to you. You obviously think you are right, they think they are right. Who do you think you are to judge them?

I personally agree with the Bible. There are other religions to choose from for those who don't agree with it.

The Bible speaks very plainly about what and who is sinful and evil. Why do I have to not think that's true for the sake of those who don't? They are free to choose another religion that suits them better.

Just because one can interpret something in the Bible to be a sin does not necessarily mean that it is - and visa versa.

You show me more and more that you really don't know the Bible very well at all.

I would go further and maintain that a given action may be a sin for one person but not for another. Simple example - stealing food to save a starving family or stealing food just to save money. Life is not all black and white and you are not the judge - God is.

God is the one who mitigates his justice according to circumstances. That in no way means sin now becomes not sinful. It means God judges accordingly, but still judges nevertheless. The danger is thinking you can reject what the Bible says and then think somehow it will all work out okay at the judgment because God is understanding and merciful.

That's pretty harsh on you if you have got it wrong Jethro! Again, who do you think you are to judge when the Bible tells you over and over not to judge others. That is for God alone; the Bible says so and on matters of sin I happen to agree without reservation.

Did you know the Bible tells us in several places to make judgments about people and things? That's quite different than condemning someone.

The Bible warns us how God will judge us on the Day of Judgment. It isn't 'judging' someone to tell another person how God will judge sin.

There you go, judging again!

The forum is actually for discussing things Jethro. If everyone could rely 100% on you being right, and we can't, there would be no need for the forum, we would just have to do and believe whatever you tell us.

My point was I did not invent the Christian faith. By your definition you judged me that I am wrong about what the Bible says about sin and evil. I'm pointing out to you that what I shared is Christianity through and through, not some personal interpretation of the Bible. This forum is here because of the long standing belief in historic Christianity. That is my point.

As you know, I do not believe everything that you believe, and probably no one else believes precisely what you believe either.

I shared the simple gospel message, no details. Only an unbeliever or an apostate--an outsider--would disagree with what I wrote.

God will be my judge Jethro and yours too. If you have driven people away from God by judging them and insulting them, you will undoubtedly get what you deserve. You will be judged by your deeds and by what is in your heart and mind - the Bible tells us so. I ask you again - would Jesus insult someone with doubts?

And Jesus answered and said, “You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you and put up with you?" (Luke 9:41 NIV)

I know you'll just rationalize this away. I'm posting here for the benefit of others for whom I wish to help understand what I believe is going on in the mind of the unbeliever/ apostate, so that they can respond accordingly, or not at all. Doubt in the gospel message of the forgiveness of sins is rooted in being unable to accept God's definition of sin and evil, and his justice in enforcing it.

So far you've been proving my suggestion. The suggestion that unbelievers and apostates remain just that because they fail to settle the fundamental issue of sin and wickedness and the judgment to come that the Bible clearly and plainly teaches and, therefore, can't believe in the forgiveness of God, no matter how much they wish they could knowing it's perhaps the wiser thing to do.

John the Baptist had doubts even though he had seen the wondrous events when he baptized Jesus. Do I need to remind you what He said about John the Baptist?

John was not a doubting sinner. He served God wholeheartedly and questioned whether or not Christ was the promised Messiah or not in the midst of his righteous obedient suffering, not in the midst of his stubborn sinful rebellion away from God.

Finally, as this thread is meant to be about apostasy, do you really feel justified in driving doubters away rather than showing love and understanding? Do you justify insulting them just because you feel they are less worthy than you?

Love means telling people the truth that they can not be saved until they acknowledge what the Bible says about their sin guilt and then coming to God to be forgiven.

I am only worthy of salvation because I have accepted the qualifications Christ gave me to inherit eternal life. You can have that, too, if you would only acknowledge your sin guilt before God and accept his forgiveness.

"12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light." (Colossians 1:12 NIV)

 

[Aardverk]

I personally agree with the Bible. There are other religions to choose from for those who don't agree with it.

Yes, Jethro, many, many Christians do NOT believe in the Bible as 100% literally right and neither do you. You don't for example go around killing people who work on the Sabbath (I hope).

You have commented on just about everything I said but it would be over-kill for me to do likewise. I will there fore comment on a few points but if there is anything in particular you would like me to address, just let me know.

Although I have stopped calling myself a Christian, just about all my close friends are devout Christians and none of them take the Bible as the literal truth. I have never met any intelligent person who does.

The danger is thinking you can reject what the Bible says and then think somehow it will all work out okay at the judgment because God is understanding and merciful.

The danger in thinking that the bible is literally true is that you can not possibly follow it without breaking some pretty serious laws of man. That means that 99.9% of Christians do ignore (reject?) those parts of the Bible that really and truly do not make sense. Most educated people understand the origins of the Bible and can recognize that many parts are completely unreliable. Virtually anything in the OT might just as well be ignored. It is based on a compilation of religions all crammed together to stop the Jews fighting each other. Many Biscops at Nicea wanted to leave it all out and I wish they had. My personal suspicion is that Constantine insisted that it was included to reduce the chances of Jews and Christians fighting. You must consider the origins of the Bible Jethro before you blindly accept all of it.

By your definition you judged me that I am wrong about what the Bible says about sin and evil. I'm pointing out to you that what I shared is Christianity through and through, not some personal interpretation of the Bible. This forum is here because of the long standing belief in historic Christianity. That is my point.

Did I judge you Jethro or did I say that God would judge you? In any case, I am in that lovely position of not being bound by 'rules' that I do not accept are valid. That gives me an unfair advantage I'm afraid.

I'm posting here for the benefit of others for whom I wish to help understand what I believe is going on in the mind of the unbeliever/ apostate, so that they can respond accordingly, or not at all.

Well, this thread is about apostates so you are entitled to your opinion. You may however be better advised to actually listen to an apostate rather than just guess what is going on in his mind.

John was not a doubting sinner. He served God wholeheartedly and questioned whether or not Christ was the promised Messiah or not in the midst of his righteous obedient suffering, not in the midst of his stubborn sinful rebellion away from God.

And here we have it Jethro, "John was not a doubting sinner". You are happy with John being unsure, despite all his advantages, but not with someone YOU judge to be a sinner simply because they are unsure. People do not reject God Jethro, they very sadly lose their faith and that is what you simply fail to understand. At the beginning of this thread I jokingly said, "at last, a subject where I am an expert". I had no idea how true that would prove to be.