Are some people destined for hell?

[JohnD]

Predestination:
All unbelievers are destined for hell. But in some cases, some of us do not persist in unbelief though we were all born unbelievers.
Predestination:
All those who come to believe in Jesus Christ will be saved from eternal hell.

Man just can't seem to get his head around God having the foreknowledge of thems that believes and thems that never will believe, so man invents isms to dumb down God's omniscience to terms humans can understand (and it is fraught with errors those isms).

 

[Mr. Bubbles]

MR B. Do you believe the Bible is the true word of God?

Hi Kenny.
No, I do not. I am convinced that man has made the Gods (all of them, including Yahweh) and not the other way around.
The whole concept of a deity communicating with the special objects of his creation through a series of intermediaries I find unbelievable in the extreme.
Even a leathery old cynic as myself can peer through a telescope and marvel at the majesty of the universe. But if this fantastic universe and everything in it was the handywork of an entity, the abilities of this entity must be virtually limitless.
Why is it then, that when it comes to giving mankind a manual with (rather important) instructions, this entity all of a sudden requires the aide of a multitude of semi-literate desert dwellers in primitive Palestine? Surely it is in God's power to write a book. He even went through the trouble to write a little bit of it on his own and gave the writings to Moses.
Furthermore, if the Bible is the work of the creator of the universe, why is there nothing in it that couldn't have been written by an ordinary first century man ?
There are pages and pages on how to sacrifice animals and how to keep slaves and when to kill your neighbor for theological crimes, but nothing about micro-organisms, the cause of disease, the structure of the solar system or any natural phenomena.

I know it may not be easy for you to understand why I view Christianity like this because you are on the inside of it and I am on the outside.
But this comparison may help: I assume that you are not impressed by the claims of Muslims. It will probably seem rather obvious to you that Mohammed never met with the archangel Gabriel and that the claims of the Koran are false.
Please understand that this is exactly how devout Muslims view Christianity. Why do Muslims believe that you (and I) are wrong ? Because it says so in a book.
I find this argument, whether it comes from a Christian or a Muslim (or any other religion) deeply inadequate.

Anyway, I hope that answers your question.

Peace.

Mr. B.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hi Kenny.
No, I do not. I am convinced that man has made the Gods (all of them, including Yahweh) and not the other way around.
The whole concept of a deity communicating with the special objects of his creation through a series of intermediaries I find unbelievable in the extreme.
Even a leathery old cynic as myself can peer through a telescope and marvel at the majesty of the universe. But if this fantastic universe and everything in it was the handywork of an entity, the abilities of this entity must be virtually limitless.
Why is it then, that when it comes to giving mankind a manual with (rather important) instructions, this entity all of a sudden requires the aide of a multitude of semi-literate desert dwellers in primitive Palestine? Surely it is in God's power to write a book. He even went through the trouble to write a little bit of it on his own and gave the writings to Moses.
Furthermore, if the Bible is the work of the creator of the universe, why is there nothing in it that couldn't have been written by an ordinary first century man ?
There are pages and pages on how to sacrifice animals and how to keep slaves and when to kill your neighbor for theological crimes, but nothing about micro-organisms, the cause of disease, the structure of the solar system or any natural phenomena.

I know it may not be easy for you to understand why I view Christianity like this because you are on the inside of it and I am on the outside.
But this comparison may help: I assume that you are not impressed by the claims of Muslims. It will probably seem rather obvious to you that Mohammed never met with the archangel Gabriel and that the claims of the Koran are false.
Please understand that this is exactly how devout Muslims view Christianity. Why do Muslims believe that you (and I) are wrong ? Because it says so in a book.
I find this argument, whether it comes from a Christian or a Muslim (or any other religion) deeply inadequate.

Anyway, I hope that answers your question.

Peace.

Mr. B.

You may not have placed your faith in the word of God, but you have this nagging voice inside of you that it is true. That's why you're here.

 

[Mr. Bubbles]

You may not have placed your faith in the word of God, but you have this nagging voice inside of you that it is true. That's why you're here.

It is the hallmark of the religious mind to mistake assumptions and wishes for reality.
But hey, if it makes you feel better, have at it.

Mr. B.

 

[turnorburn]

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

tob

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is the hallmark of the religious mind to mistake assumptions and wishes for reality.
But hey, if it makes you feel better, have at it.

Mr. B.

Surely you have better things to do than hang around a bunch of religious people talking about a non-existent God, right?

 

[gr8grace3]

There are pages and pages on how to sacrifice animals and how to keep slaves and when to kill your neighbor for theological crimes, but nothing about micro-organisms, the cause of disease, the structure of the solar system or any natural phenomena.

• In Genesis 1:1 and Hebrews 1:10-12 the Bible is unequivocal that the universe had a beginning. When the Bible was written many people believed the universe was eternal. Starting with the studies of Albert Einstein in the early 1900’s and continuing still today, science has confirmed the biblical view that the universe had a beginning.
• Moreover, the universe is expanding (Job 9:8; Isaiah 42:5; Jeremiah 51:15; Zechariah 12:1). Repeatedly God declares that He stretches out the heavens. During the early 20th century, most scientists (including Einstein) believed the universe was static. Others believed it oscillated and would eventually collapsed due to gravity. Then in 1929, astronomer Edwin Hubble showed that distant galaxies were receding from the earth. This discovery revolutionized the field of astronomy. Einstein admitted his mistake, and today most astronomers agree with what the Creator told us millennia ago – the universe is expanding!

• Jeremiah 33:22 claims that the stars of the heaven are innumerable. Hippocrates, before the invention of the telescope charted and numbered 1,022 stars. Kepler later recounted and revised the number. Today scientists agree with Jeremiah. There are billions just in our galaxy! It is interesting that the Bible makes the number of stars roughly equivalent to the number of grains of sand on the seashore (Genesis 22:17; Hebrews 11:12). Carl Sagan also compared these two, leaning towards the number of stars being greater. Amazingly, the latest estimates of the gross number of sand grains are comparable to the modern estimated number of stars in the universe!

• Judges 5:20 mentions “the stars in their courses.” While it was once believed that the stars were fixed, today we know that they too move in a predictable way.

• Job 38:24 indicates the light of the sun (by heating) makes the wind.

• Job 36:27 asks how the rain drops stay small (discrete even in a strong wind)? One of the reasons is found in Psalm 135:5-7. Because of the electrical charges in the clouds, the rain drops repel each other as they fall. This is why electrical static during a rain or snow storm can interrupt transmissions.

• Ezekiel 5:5, 38:12 claims that Jerusalem is the center of the earth. ICR commissioned a computer analysis of the earth’s land-masses and discovered that the geographic center is in Palestine, near the holy city.

• Job 26:7 The ancients Greeks believed that the world was held up by Atlas. Other civilizations held similar ideas. The Bible made an unusual claim: God did not hang the world on anything.

• In Job 38:16 God challenged Job to find the “springs of the sea.” But the ocean is so deep that almost all the ocean floor is in total darkness and the water pressure becomes enormous. It would have been impossible for Job to have explored the “springs of the sea.” Until recently, it was thought that oceans were fed only by rivers and rain. Yet in the 1970s, with the help of deep diving research submarines that were constructed to withstand the pressure, oceanographers discovered springs on the ocean floor!

• Much of the Old Testament Levitical law is comprised of health-related restrictions involving diet, cleansing, and quarantine. The book “None of These Diseases” and Keller’s work demonstrate the healthfulness of following that advice. Human medicine did not realize this until thousands of years after it was written! For example, the Bible cautions against consuming fat (Leviticus 7:23). Only in recent decades has the medical community determined that fat clogs arteries and contributes to heart disease. In Leviticus 11 the Scripture commanded Jews to avoid sea creatures which do not have fins or scales. We now know that bottom-feeders (those with no scales or fins) tend to consume waste and are more likely to carry disease. Then the Bible warns against eating birds of prey. Scientists now recognize that those birds which eat carrion (putrefying flesh), often spread disease. The Bible prohibited the Israelites from eating swine (Deuteronomy 14:8). Not so long ago, science learned that eating undercooked pork causes an infection of parasites called trichinosis. When dealing with diseases, the instruction was that clothes and body should be washed under running water (Leviticus 15:13). For centuries people naively washed in standing water. Today we recognize the need to wash away germs with fresh water.

Josh McDowell’s book Evidence That Demands a Verdict

 

[Kidron]

Furthermore, if the Bible is the work of the creator of the universe, why is there nothing in it that couldn't have been written by an ordinary first century man ?
.

Hey MB,

i think you are a bit misinformed regarding your argument.,
So, let me help you with that.....
and that help is...the fact that the Old Testament predicted impossible to know facts about the coming of Jesus before he was born.
No other "book" can do this.......not the Quran, not anything by Dawkins, or anything by Darwin.
And these Biblically predicted facts Include where Jesus would be born, how he would die, and well over 50 exact predictions that cant be predicted by accident, and in fact all happened exactly as predicted.
And all were predicted from 500 - 3500+ years before he was BORN.

Another is the fact that Isaiah 40:22 , 1500 years before that telescope that you own was invented, told you that the earth was not flat, but rather its a circle.
And the only way a book that you despise can explain that the earth is a circle nearly 1500 years before Galileo was born, is because someone is looking at the earth from above it, while describing what the SEE.

Now, i realize that the ability for a "book" to tell you 100% facts about (Jesus) before he was born, including birth line, crucifixion as death, and many other facts, .......i realize that this will be meaningless to you as your hardened opinion is your only point of view and your mind is as closed as you want it to be...., and so, what does Truth have to do with that?
>nothing<
You just want to argue your opinion because you think you are clever, and facts are not to be in the way of that, which is fine by me.
I dont find you clever.
I find you heading for death and apparently think that the grave is the end.
Wrong answer.

But thank you anyway, for reading.

 

[jeff77]

It is the hallmark of the religious mind to mistake assumptions and wishes for reality.
But hey, if it makes you feel better, have at it.

Mr. B.

Mr. Bubbles, surely you must still have some questions as to whether there is a God or not, otherwise why would you spend time on a Christian website. I am glad you are here, maybe you can find the answers you are looking for.

 

[Mr. Bubbles]

Surely you have better things to do than hang around a bunch of religious people talking about a non-existent God, right?

Hi Jethro,

I wish that were so, but I am afraid that this is one of the most important conversations of our time.

Mr.B.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hi Jethro,

I wish that were so, but I am afraid that this is one of the most important conversations of our time.

Mr.B.

Good.
Are you ready to admit that you are a slave to sin and are helpless to do anything about it and will be condemned as a guilty sinner if you die in your present condition? If so, are you then ready to receive God's forgiveness so you can escape that condemnation and be at peace with God when Jesus returns to Judge the nations?

 

[Mr. Bubbles]

Hey MB,

i think you are a bit misinformed regarding your argument.,
So, let me help you with that.....
and that help is...the fact that the Old Testament predicted impossible to know facts about the coming of Jesus before he was born.
No other "book" can do this.......not the Quran, not anything by Dawkins, or anything by Darwin.

So the people who wrote the latter parts of the Bible made sure that it confirmed the prophecies of the OT.
If that strikes you as miraculous I'd say it sets the bar for miracles rather low.

It reminds me of a surreal argument I once had with a Christian fellow; he argued that the "fact" ( note the correct use of the quotation marks ) of the empty tomb confirmed that the resurrection story of Jesus was true. When I pointed out to him that you can't use one part of story as proof for another part of the same story his head "exploded" ( see what I did there ?)

Mr. Bubbles

 

[Kenny_ms]

No, I do not. I am convinced that man has made the Gods (all of them, including Yahweh) and not the other way around.

So, you simply don't believe there is a God? correct? And if not, are you pretty well settled with the Big Bang theory for creation?

BTW, I've played at least a couple of the Bioshock series... One and Infinite, I think...very creative stuff.

 

[gracenote]

• In Genesis 1:1 and Hebrews 1:10-12 the Bible is unequivocal that the universe had a beginning. When the Bible was written many people believed the universe was eternal. Starting with the studies of Albert Einstein in the early 1900’s and continuing still today, science has confirmed the biblical view that the universe had a beginning.
• Moreover, the universe is expanding (Job 9:8; Isaiah 42:5; Jeremiah 51:15; Zechariah 12:1). Repeatedly God declares that He stretches out the heavens. During the early 20th century, most scientists (including Einstein) believed the universe was static. Others believed it oscillated and would eventually collapsed due to gravity. Then in 1929, astronomer Edwin Hubble showed that distant galaxies were receding from the earth. This discovery revolutionized the field of astronomy. Einstein admitted his mistake, and today most astronomers agree with what the Creator told us millennia ago – the universe is expanding!

• Jeremiah 33:22 claims that the stars of the heaven are innumerable. Hippocrates, before the invention of the telescope charted and numbered 1,022 stars. Kepler later recounted and revised the number. Today scientists agree with Jeremiah. There are billions just in our galaxy! It is interesting that the Bible makes the number of stars roughly equivalent to the number of grains of sand on the seashore (Genesis 22:17; Hebrews 11:12). Carl Sagan also compared these two, leaning towards the number of stars being greater. Amazingly, the latest estimates of the gross number of sand grains are comparable to the modern estimated number of stars in the universe!

• Judges 5:20 mentions “the stars in their courses.” While it was once believed that the stars were fixed, today we know that they too move in a predictable way.

• Job 38:24 indicates the light of the sun (by heating) makes the wind.

• Job 36:27 asks how the rain drops stay small (discrete even in a strong wind)? One of the reasons is found in Psalm 135:5-7. Because of the electrical charges in the clouds, the rain drops repel each other as they fall. This is why electrical static during a rain or snow storm can interrupt transmissions.

• Ezekiel 5:5, 38:12 claims that Jerusalem is the center of the earth. ICR commissioned a computer analysis of the earth’s land-masses and discovered that the geographic center is in Palestine, near the holy city.

• Job 26:7 The ancients Greeks believed that the world was held up by Atlas. Other civilizations held similar ideas. The Bible made an unusual claim: God did not hang the world on anything.

• In Job 38:16 God challenged Job to find the “springs of the sea.” But the ocean is so deep that almost all the ocean floor is in total darkness and the water pressure becomes enormous. It would have been impossible for Job to have explored the “springs of the sea.” Until recently, it was thought that oceans were fed only by rivers and rain. Yet in the 1970s, with the help of deep diving research submarines that were constructed to withstand the pressure, oceanographers discovered springs on the ocean floor!

• Much of the Old Testament Levitical law is comprised of health-related restrictions involving diet, cleansing, and quarantine. The book “None of These Diseases” and Keller’s work demonstrate the healthfulness of following that advice. Human medicine did not realize this until thousands of years after it was written! For example, the Bible cautions against consuming fat (Leviticus 7:23). Only in recent decades has the medical community determined that fat clogs arteries and contributes to heart disease. In Leviticus 11 the Scripture commanded Jews to avoid sea creatures which do not have fins or scales. We now know that bottom-feeders (those with no scales or fins) tend to consume waste and are more likely to carry disease. Then the Bible warns against eating birds of prey. Scientists now recognize that those birds which eat carrion (putrefying flesh), often spread disease. The Bible prohibited the Israelites from eating swine (Deuteronomy 14:8). Not so long ago, science learned that eating undercooked pork causes an infection of parasites called trichinosis. When dealing with diseases, the instruction was that clothes and body should be washed under running water (Leviticus 15:13). For centuries people naively washed in standing water. Today we recognize the need to wash away germs with fresh water.

Josh McDowell’s book Evidence That Demands a Verdict

Brilliant!
Couldn't have worded it better, and never have.
Bravo!

 

[jeff77]

Thread Closed for Moderator review

 

[th1b.taylor]

I thought that the doctrine of Hell was not allowed to be discussed on christianforums.net.
I'm glad that we can discuss this again, because it is a very important subject. According to the Bible the wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment in hell. (Romans 6:23, plus the entire rest of the Bible) Those who do not believe in the Son of God will perish, just as the Bible says (See John 3:16 plus many other passages). Those who reject Christ will not be tormented alive forever in hell, they will perish on Judgment Day, just as the Bible says.

I'm not a moderator but as soon as you go there it excites any Christ believer because Jesus taught the truth of Hell more than He did of Heaven. To deny the truth of Hell is to leave Jesus and the truth of the whole of scripture behind and when one tries to teach this selective theology is to violate the clear ToS Agreement and to teach heresy. You and I have engaged this subject more than once and if you are going there again the mods will shut you down for disobedience.

 

[TimothyW]

I'm not a moderator but as soon as you go there it excites any Christ believer because Jesus taught the truth of Hell more than He did of Heaven. To deny the truth of Hell is to leave Jesus and the truth of the whole of scripture behind and when one tries to teach this selective theology is to violate the clear ToS Agreement and to teach heresy. You and I have engaged this subject more than once and if you are going there again the mods will shut you down for disobedience.

It isn't heresy to believe what the Bible says. Do you deny that the Bible says "The wages of sin is death" and "whoever believes in him shall not perish"?

Do you really believe that Jesus taught more of Hell than He did of Heaven? Oh my. Have you looked for yourself or are you just quoting something you heard somewhere? I've heard this one before, so I went the Gospels and I looked for myself. The fact is that it isn't even close. Jesus talked much more about heaven than hell. A lot more. And Jesus also taught that those who go to hell are destroyed there. Matthew 10:28.

 

[Mr. Bubbles]

No, I do not. I am convinced that man has made the Gods (all of them, including Yahweh) and not the other way around.

So, you simply don't believe there is a God? correct? And if not, are you pretty well settled with the Big Bang theory for creation?

BTW, I've played at least a couple of the Bioshock series... One and Infinite, I think...very creative stuff.

Hi Kenny,

The universe I find myself in simply doesn't look like it was designed and it certainly doesn't look as if it were designed by someone who likes us.
It is not surprising that people see agency, design and patterns in nature. This is what one would expect from pattern-seeking primates.

A certain type of mind abhors ambiguity and uncertainty, and I can sympathize with this to a certain extent but I do not share it.

I know next to nothing about cosmology, physics or any of the other sciences. I haven't the faintest idea how the universe started.
No doubt Shakespeare was right when he had Hamlet say "There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, then are dreamt of".

I just don't feel I am obliged to be able to explain the universe, or anything at all for that matter. This is a distinction between us that I consider of great importance.

I do feel strongly, however, that we have an obligation to make our best effort to understand the world through study and investigation and conversation and reflection, but that doesn't mean that I have to take as Gospel (pardon the pun) utterances made by sand-strewn men for whom a wheelbarrow would have been a breathtaking emergence of new technology.

My unbelief amounts to this: I reject the very specific claims made by the religions; that is to say; I don't believe Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse, I don't believe for a minute that Joseph Smith found golden plates buried in upstate New York, I don't believe the Aztecs were on to something when they ripped a beating heart our of a chest cavity in order to keep the sun on its course, I don't believe there were only two progenitors to our species and I don't believe a man could raise the dead, walk on water or die on a cross to get up again two days later.
I find all these claims equally, highly unbelievable.
That's all.

If anyone can show me some evidence that any of these claims are true, I'd be more than happy to consider them.


Mr. B.

PS. Am currently playing Infinite, but the original Bioshock remains my favorite.
I remember playing it the first time and I was absolutely terrified,

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I do feel strongly, however, that we have an obligation to make our best effort to understand the world through study and investigation and conversation and reflection, but that doesn't mean that I have to take as Gospel (pardon the pun) utterances made by sand-strewn men for whom a wheelbarrow would have been a breathtaking emergence of new technology.

Sin is not new to anybody. Sand-strewn men knew as much about it as we do today. And that's what this is about.
To argue about everything else but that is to completely and totally miss it.

I was no different....unbelievers use the unknowns about science and history and experience to divert attention from that which they do understand quite well--mankind's bondage to sin and the damage it does in this world, and how even those in that bondage crave the righteous judgment it deserves.

My unbelief amounts to this: I reject the very specific claims made by the religions...
[...]
I don't believe there were only two progenitors to our species and I don't believe a man could raise the dead, walk on water or die on a cross to get up again two days later.
I find all these claims equally, highly unbelievable.
That's all.
If anyone can show me some evidence that any of these claims are true, I'd be more than happy to consider them.

No you wouldn't. You wouldn't because you know it will lead you face to face with the reality of a just Creator who is going to reign in sinful, rebellious mankind and put an end to his destruction.

The common denominator of all religions is sin. Ever notice that? That's because that's what it's all about. Everything else is too often used as a distraction from the truth about sin and injustice in the world and the ache we all sense for the inevitable Judgment to come.

 

[th1b.taylor]

It isn't heresy to believe what the Bible says. Do you deny that the Bible says "The wages of sin is death" and "whoever believes in him shall not perish"?

Do you really believe that Jesus taught more of Hell than He did of Heaven? Oh my. Have you looked for yourself or are you just quoting something you heard somewhere? I've heard this one before, so I went the Gospels and I looked for myself. The fact is that it isn't even close. Jesus talked much more about heaven than hell. A lot more. And Jesus also taught that those who go to hell are destroyed there. Matthew 10:28.

I'm not going there with you one more time. You have been censored and censored for your attempts to teach this personal doctrine of your you have built by singling out, out of their context, less than a hand full of scriptures.

I and others here, some mods, have tried to get you to understand that scripture is a whole and to remove any selection of that scripture from it's content is to (my word) rape the scriptures. You want to scream and stomp that the word Death is there but you refuse to accept that the scripture, clearly, teaches two types of death, just as it clearly teaches two types or forms of life, spiritual and natural.

Your argument is not with me, it is with God and I'm happy to report, God wins.