Are we born with a sin nature?

[for_his_glory]

Jesus told us exactly the condition of the DEVIL from the beginning. It was never a question of an Holy Angel going bad from making some bad decisions:

John 8:44
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Those are the PERFECT WAYS of the DEVIL. The term 'perfection' has little if anything to do with PERFECTION as in PERFECT other than PERFECTLY EVIL.

As it pertains to this topic the 'whole world' is presently immersed in the mystery of iniquity. It is in fact an unseen working, therefore termed a mystery.

All of us, adults, babies, everything in our present deteriorating world are in fact quite immersed into this working of EVIL.

1 John 5:19
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Yet God has chosen HIS LIGHT to SHINE from the midst this present darkness.

Asking then if babies are 'sinners' is quite a simplistic notion. It is perhaps a little more complex than to merely see babies as that is not an 'encompassing' view of sin or evil.

When discussing matters of sin and evil, those present powers and 'entities' that extend upon the whole world must be firmly in view.

Do I see evil babies? Uh, no. God saves them all. They like us however all have the same issues when it comes to the present working of the mystery of iniquity which is not 'divided' out upon any individual in particular, but upon every individual when we consider the larger picture.

s

Well, I see you refuse to see how the one guilty of bringing sin into the world was once highly favored of the Lord until iniquity was found in him and was cast out of the Throne Room of God and cast to the earth to destroy the nations.

I see no evil babies either as they are only subjected to sin when they enter this sinful world and eventually sin at some point in their life as we know that all have sinned. There is no mystery to iniquity, but an actuality as being that of Satan whom is the father of lies who spreads his deceit through out the nations causing man to sin, even if they are not aware of the source of sin.

 

[for_his_glory]

Mt 7:15 "Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick,...and the child was cured from that very hour. " Matt 4:23,24

The boy was cured of some type of physical affliction and nothing to do with any sins the boy had.

I never said the boy had sin in him. Some one else said that. What I am saying is that it was one of Satan's minions that posed the boy and caused him to be sick, thus Jesus rebuking Satan and soon the boy was healed after that minion was cast out of him.

 

[smaller]

Well, I see you refuse to see how the one guilty of bringing sin into the world was once highly favored of the Lord until iniquity was found in him and was cast out of the Throne Room of God and cast to the earth to destroy the nations.

There was never a Holy Satan and Holy Devils. That is just a christian fairytale trumped up by the 'free' will camps to justify their salvation based on their own 'decision' making and pointing to some supposed Holy Satan and Holy Devils to have disbursed themselves through making bad decisions.

Largely a fantasy.

I see no evil babies either as they are only subjected to sin when they enter this sinful world and eventually sin

Again, the 'whole world' lies in wickedness. It will remain quite futile to make a baby the fulcrum of sin nor non sin when facts of sin revolved around the present powers and entities of evil in this present world.

To isolate this subject matter apart from the temporal causes of evil is not possible.

All flesh is subject to 'intrusion' by evil and it is intrusion UNseen.

There is no way to 'isolate' a baby from having that intrusion nor is there any way to 'isolate' any of ourselves from same.

Anyone who is honest about their own thoughts will find evil thoughts, and this, a reflection of being in a wicked world, subject to those intrusive powers.

at some point in their life as we know that all have sinned.

By what measure? Many believers only measure sin by external measures. Most can't even divide the fact that the evil they think is the evil therein and as such is SIN within.

There is again no way to either measure or to isolate or insulate any of us from having this experience of 'evil thought', even in the womb. We can't say 'babies' in the womb have no thought nor can we say those thoughts are only and entirely pure and holy. That is not the human experience.

The fact of human experience in the flesh and in a wicked world with the proliferation of evil powers unseen makes all of subject to that internal working, and that working is SIN within.

There is no isolation available to or for anyone other than God Himself in flesh.

There is no mystery to iniquity,

Iniquity is deemed a working mystery by Paul. (2 Thess. 2:7)

but an actuality as being that of Satan whom is the father of lies who spreads his deceit through out the nations causing man to sin, even if they are not aware of the source of sin.

And to that I would agree with the axiom that 'all' of us down to the very last and least one are subjected to that exposure and immediately so in this presently wicked world.

There is no way to see this matter of sin as merely a matter of babies and their actions alone. It's not. There are other powers and entities to consider in all matters of sin and none avoid that encounter at any age. We are all presently in 'an evil age.'

It is even more ridiculous to crown young adults at a certain age saying to them, 'now you officially' are a sinner via the age of 'accountability.'

No one is immune from the intrusion of evil thoughts at any time and at any age. No decisions made of mankind avoids the facts of having evil thoughts in contention for their minds.

It's part of the package of being here.

s

 

[Dustoftheearth]

You are ASSUMING the boy had sins, when being posssessed with a devil was a physical afflicition and nothing to do with sins. "Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." The kingdom of heaven is not made up of sinners.

The problem is the flesh not just the fruit of the flesh. Sins that are committed are merely ‘fruit’ of the flesh.
It is not the fruit that causes the tree to be bad, but the bad tree that causes the bad fruit.

Is a bad tree not a bad tree, until it has produced its bad fruit?

[FONT=&quot]God has condemned sin in the flesh.[/FONT]

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Dustoftheearth,

The problem is the flesh not just the fruit of the flesh. Sins that are committed are merely ‘fruit’ of the flesh.
It is not the fruit that causes the tree to be bad, but the bad tree that causes the bad fruit.

Is a bad tree not a bad tree, until it has produced its bad fruit?

God has condemned sin in the flesh.

Excellent point!

• Matthew 7:17 "Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
  
  [*]Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."

The "flesh" is a "corrupt tree." A "corrupt tree" CANNOT bring forth good fruit - just as "the flesh" (corrupt tree) CANNOT bring forth "any good thing" (good fruit):

• Romans 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing [no good fruit]: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

We could go on and on with Scripture, but these days, very few have any use for Christ's Words anymore. It's all about church doctrines and traditions. Only the Spirit of Truth can open eyes.

 

[Lehigh3]

Yes, we are all born with a sinful nature.

 

[Osgiliath]

Then I will say the same to you also, have you never read Ezekiel Chapter 28 especially verse 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. How can one argue against this verse.

May I ask: What did Jesus and John say?


You say that 'in the beginning' Satan was perfect and sinless. But according to Jesus, Satan's "beginning" was precisely the opposite:

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING"


John repeats this fact:

1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil SINNETH FROM THE BEGINNING."


John says the devil WAS A 'SINNER FROM THE BEGINNING!' Jesus says that the devil was a 'MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING'. You say that Jesus and John were wrong. May I ask why?



Where in Ezekiel 28 is Satan mentioned? Chapter and verse? You've been "told" that the "prince of Tyrus" from Ezekiel 28 is referring to Satan, but where do the Scriptures say that?

• (the "prince" of Tyre and the "king" of Tyre are obviously the same person - they are both ruling over the same place - Tyre. All Kings are princes before they become kings. ;) )

The king of Tyre was certainly not perfect in God's ways. Here is how the king of Tyre was 'perfect:'

Ezekiel 15:1 "And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Ezekiel 15:2 Son of man, What is the vine tree more than any tree, [or than] a branch which is among the trees of the forest?
Ezekiel 15:3 Shall wood be taken thereof to do any work? or will [men] take a pin of it to hang any vessel thereon?
Ezekiel 15:4 Behold, it is cast into the fire for fuel; the fire devoureth both the ends of it, and the midst of it is burned. Is it meet for [any] work?
Ezekiel 15:5 Behold, when it was whole, it was meet for no work: how much less shall it be meet yet for any work, when the fire hath devoured it, and it is burned?"


Do you see that word 'whole?' "When it was whole, it was meet for no work: how much less shall it be meet for any work, when the fire hath devoured it and it is burned?" That word 'whole' is the exact same Hebrew word that is translated 'perfect' in Ezekiel 28:15:

• Ezekiel 28:15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

The Hebrew word is:

• H8549
  תּמים
  tâmîym
  taw-meem'
  From H8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.

All of the lambs which were sacrificed were also 'perfect' lambs. But it is not possible that the blood of a lamb can take away the sins of the world. Neither is it possible that the king of Tyre is not also "marred in the hand of the Potter."

Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."



The King of Tyre was definitely not any less "shapen in iniquity" or "conceived in sin" than was King David. When he was "whole," when he was 'taw-meem', when he was 'perfect,' [the King of Tyre] was unfit for the kingdom of God. WHY?

1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God"



When it was 'whole' [Hebrew: 'taw-meem'], it [the King of Tyre] was meet for no work: how much less shall it be meet yet for any work, when the fire hath devoured it, and it is burned?



The king of Tyre is dead and long gone in the outward sense. But he is alive and well in every one of us today if we are not dying daily to the pulls of our flesh. That is why these chapters are here in God's Word. It is each of us who tends to 'exalt himself to heaven' (Isaiah 14) - and it is each one of us who sits as that 'man of sin' usurping God's proper place on His Throne in the Temple of God [which YE ARE]. This is "written for our admonition..."

1 Corinthians 10:11 "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."


It is written and it happened to them, BUT for us.

The 'perfection' of the king of Tyre is no more glorious than the perfection of a lamb. It is perfect for what it is designed to be, a "marred vessel" in need of a Savior.

 

[rrowell]

Iniquity is deemed a working mystery by Paul. (2 Thess. 2:7)

What then is Iniquity? it is a transgression of the Law, transgression of the law is Sin:

1 John 3:4 (KJV)
4. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Therefore a infant or Child must know the Law (Law of Liberty) before one can transgress any law, where there is no law, there is no transgression, where there is no transgression there is no sin:

Romans 4:15 (KJV)
15. Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

I would agree with the axiom that 'all' of us down to the very last and least one are subjected to that exposure and immediately so in this presently wicked world.

Then as pointed out above, you must agree that until one is exposed to the Law of Liberty and then knows the difference between right and wrong, then transgresses the law of liberty, one can not be held accountable or sin.:

Romans 9:11 (KJV)
11. (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth: )

 

[Davies]

Psalm 32:2

New King James Version (NKJV)

2 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit.

Sin is imputed to man, and it is imputed by the LORD.

- Davies

 

[smaller]

What then is Iniquity? it is a transgression of the Law, transgression of the law is Sin:

1 John 3:4 (KJV)
4. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

We've had this conversation prior.

Sin is, by the book:

A. Transgression of Law (even by the thought of sin ala Matt. 5:28)
B. Anything not of faith
C. Of the devil

Now, the glaring component in the above is 'WHO?'

It doesn't pay to discuss sin and not see 'WHO' is also involved with SIN besides mankind.

Therefore a infant or Child must know the Law (Law of Liberty) before one can transgress any law, where there is no law, there is no transgression, where there is no transgression there is no sin:

What is it you don't get about 'the devil' being involved with and a component of sin and then only continue to insist this topic matter is only about 'babies' and 'law?'

The law itself doesn't have to come to anyone in particular NOR will looking away from the law stop the workings of lawlessness (as many falsely presume.)

THE LAW itself is spiritual and works in adversity and conflict with the powers of lawlessness which are in fact DEMONIC.

Sin is not just a question of mankind or babies. There are the workings of the anti-Christ spirits to also consider in the equations.

Jesus brought this fact to BRILLIANT LIGHT in Mark 4:15. And shows therein that Satan enters the heart at the prompting of THE WORD. Satan is, in effect, an AUTO thief, immediately ripping off via theft, everyone who hears THE LAW or even THE WORD itself.

That 'theft' transpires 'unseen' and 'unknown' by the victim, yet it is still also A SIN that transpired in that person BY SATAN's theft within them.

Do you get this picture yet?

Romans 4:15 (KJV)
15. Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Then as pointed out above, you must agree that until one is exposed to the Law of Liberty and then knows the difference between right and wrong, then transgresses the law of liberty, one can not be held accountable or sin.:

Again your eyes and ears are ONLY TUNED to the person. There are 'other parties' involved.

And using your intentions one should AVOID THE WORD entirely to avoid having problems. So that logic itself is, hmmm, shall I say, questionable in source?

Gods Words are WORDS OF LIFE. They are all meant entirely for our GOOD, every last jot and tittle of same, cover to cover.

And yes, EVEN the bad ones, or what might seem on the surface to some to be 'bad.'

Romans 9:11 (KJV)
11. (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth: )

Citing that one certainly didn't help the cause you were trying to make.

It is very true though that 'unless' and 'until' God Himself 'allows' people to see these matters they will in fact remain 'under cover' and 'unable' to see. And that is because they (all unbelievers) have an entity much more powerful than they 'covering' their minds. Yes, even 'infants.' (2 Cor. 4:4)

It's not just them.

s

 

[Randy]

Well its clear from scripture that all eventually will sin assuming one doesn't die as a infant. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
1/3 of the angels sinned.
Adam and Eve sinned. (Note:They were tempted) That condition still exists, that is the one who leads the whole world astray is still sowing weeds.

Jesus was without Sin

Jesus taught one was a slave to sin unless the Son set them free. But if the Son set one free they are free indeed.

In regard to "nature" maybe its best to just state "Only God is Good" rather then dwell on our weaknesses.

Randy

 

[heymikey80]

There's a great, but concise and dense, book about this: John Murray, "The Imputation of Adam's Sin". Without it we'll go around & around about all the facets of sin existing with us, within us, and inherited by us (covenantally or genetically). Murray's work is tough, but well worth the grappling.

 

[Davies]

There's a great, but concise and dense, book about this: John Murray, "The Imputation of Adam's Sin". Without it we'll go around & around about all the facets of sin existing with us, within us, and inherited by us (covenantally or genetically). Murray's work is tough, but well worth the grappling.

heymikey80,

Have you read it, and if so, what does he say? Or is it too complicated to recite?

- Davies

 

[rrowell]

Psalm 32:2

New King James Version (NKJV)

2 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit.

Sin is imputed to man, and it is imputed by the LORD.

- Davies

Hi Davies,

The scripture say's the opposite, "the Lord does not impute iniquity"

The ASV puts it like this:

Psalm 32:2 (ASV)
Blessed is the man unto whom Jehovah imputeth not iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no guile.

To impute is to "attribute to a source or cause" to say the Lord imputes sin is to say he is the cause or source of it, surly you would not believe that?

 

[rrowell]

We've had this conversation prior.

Sin is, by the book:

A. Transgression of Law (even by the thought of sin ala Matt. 5:28)
B. Anything not of faith
C. Of the devil

Now, the glaring component in the above is 'WHO?'

LoL... the good old "the devil made me do it"

It doesn't pay to discuss sin and not see 'WHO' is also involved with SIN besides mankind.

It is not the tempter or the temptation, clearly that has been in the world since Adam opened the door, it is the fact that we choose not to resist him that you sin, satan will not sin for you, he will not cause you to sin, he will only tempt you to sin otherwise this verse means nothing:

James 4:7 (KJV)
7. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Until you can accept the fact that God gave man a will to choose you will not find your way

 

[Davies]

Hi Davies,

The scripture say's the opposite, "the Lord does not impute iniquity"

The ASV puts it like this:

Psalm 32:2 (ASV)
Blessed is the man unto whom Jehovah imputeth not iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no guile.

To impute is to "attribute to a source or cause" to say the Lord imputes sin is to say he is the cause or source of it, surly you would not believe that?

Hi rrowell,

I wouldn't say God is the source of sin, but Adam. Because Mary, the mother of Jesus, was born in Adam, she would need the blood of Jesus applied to her account.

- Davies

 

[rrowell]

Hi rrowell,

I wouldn't say God is the source of sin, but Adam. Because Mary, the mother of Jesus, was born in Adam, she would need the blood of Jesus applied to her account.

- Davies

Hi Davies,

So where in the fallowing verse you quoted does it say anything about Adam?

Psalm 32:2 (NKJV)
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit.

 

[smaller]

LoL... the good old "the devil made me do it"

The devil does what the devil does and is 'scripturally' involved with 'sin' regardless of any silly remarks from past comedians.

It is not the tempter or the temptation, clearly that has been in the world since Adam opened the door, it is the fact that we choose not to resist him that you sin, satan will not sin for you, he will not cause you to sin, he will only tempt you to sin otherwise this verse means nothing:

If the tempter tempts in mind/heart where does that place that worker? Do the math.

Until you can accept the fact that God gave man a will to choose you will not find your way

If 'man's (or childs) will alone was the only will involved you'd have a point, but it's not.

2 Timothy 2:26
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

s

 

[heymikey80]

heymikey80,

Have you read it, and if so, what does he say? Or is it too complicated to recite?

- Davies

It is very involved, but it brings up the point that the imputation of sin is not some scientific genetic inheritance alone, nor is it illustrative alone, nor have certain attempts to resolve it to singular modern views of inheritance been successful when compared with what Scripture says.

It does explain that you have to go really shallow with Scripture to conclude that the Adamic sinfulness is a figurative or poetic thing. It circles around Romans 5, but others of Paul's statements rely on the comprehensive sinfulness of humankind: Romans 3 for example. Murray often notes that if you "take" the imputation of Adam's sin figuratively, the corresponding application of Jesus' righteousness becomes figurative -- and that makes it noncomprehensive and reasonably as ineffective as the imputation of Adam's sin to all humanity: a shallowing of Christ's work on the Cross that is simply rejected by Paul elsewhere (e.g. 1 Cor 15).

The pieces that I learned from it were theologically, covenantal and federal representation - that is, familial inheritance, not specifically genetic. Murray pointed out, there definitely is a genetic inheritance that factors into the imputation of sin as well. That's generally due to the profoundness of the relationship we have destroyed - a relationship that reaches into our very creational being is not a simple defection. However, it is not the whole story. The fact that we cut off our inheritance as well, means there is a distinctively covenantal disowning that has been at work ever since Adam. And the result of that is that the same disowning is attributed to us, due to Adam's original sin: Adam's sin thus federally imputes a curse to everyone who descends from Adam.

These were the major ground-shifts that I experienced in my own thinking, reading it.

There are some really difficult concepts throughout the short book ("mediate" and "immediate" imputation is still very fuzzy to me). Paradoxically the curse of imputed sin is unmediated when attributed to us: mostly because no one has come up with a theology of mediate imputation that really works for the Scriptures involved. That was mind-bending to me, but it was stated in as reasonable a way as I could fathom.

 

[rrowell]

The devil does what the devil does and is 'scripturally' involved with 'sin' regardless of any silly remarks from past comedians.

LoL, you the same as said "the devil made me do it", show me one place in the Bible where the devil ever "made" anyone do his will, that man did not "have a choice" to not do the will of the devil, show me one.

If the tempter tempts in mind/heart where does that place that worker? Do the math.

with a same decision such as Moses here, no math required:

Hebrews 11:24-26 (KJV)
24. By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25. Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26. Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

If 'man's (or childs) will alone was the only will involved you'd have a point, but it's not.

2 Timothy 2:26
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

You need to look at the whole of the text and not just the verse, Paul is telling Christians how to avoid the snare, warning the servant of the Lord to make the proper choice and do the will of God and not the devil. It says nothing of the devil making one do his will.

2 Timothy 2:24-26 (NKJV)
24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.