Are we born with a sin nature?

[for_his_glory]

They "get there" via punctuation. : ) so if your coping then pasting they surprise us with a smile

TY reba.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Now you're using your noggin!

Keep thinking along those lines, and (slowly) read the whole book of Romans today, and I think you'll be on your way.

One correction, one cannot be righteous not only "having done no good," but also "having done no evil" as well:

Romans 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth."


Ephesians 2:2 "Wherein in time past ye [all of mankind] walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were BY NATURE the children of wrath, EVEN as others."


That is what the scriptures teach concerning "We all." We all are by nature children of God's wrath, simply because we all were created "marred in the hand of the Potter" as "children of disobedience...by nature the children of wrath."

Sorry but it works both ways. One cannot be righteous until he does God's righteousness just as one cannot be a sinner until he sins / transgresses God's law, 1 Jn 3:4

You cannot show me one biblical example of one being called a sinner who never committed any sin.

In Eph 2:3 the word nature can mean " a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature" and this is what the word nature means in this context.

The context tells us they had "walked according to the course of this world" and "had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind". Meaning they had lived in sin so long it became a part of their nature, that is, their habitual practice of walking and living in sin made sinning become a part of their nature.

Rom 2:14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:"

If you were right, then Paul here is wrong for if you were right it would be impossible for the nature of the Gentiles to do good, do God's law.

 

[for_his_glory]

Thank you for the greeting, and for engaging me in the discussion of Psalm 58:3.
Estranged actually refers to a separation in a relationship. It implies that at one time there was a relationship, but that the relationship has fallen apart.

However, what is most important about the verse is that the context is not refering to a sinful condition with which all people are born. The psalm is specifically contrasting the wicked against the righteous. Verse 3 is part of David's "rant" (to modernize the term) against unjust rulers and judges. He's using poetic imagery to support his case that they aren't just "good" people who have made some bad rulings. He is saying that these specific wicked men are corrupt to the very core of their beings.

It isn't a generalized statement about all of mankind. It can't be taken as such, either, because that is not he message of the psalm.

edit: This is in response to "for_his_glory".

Yes, I understand it is mainly about wicked judges will be judged, but it also explains in verse 3 how they became wicked as being estranged (sinless) in the womb until they were born and then had gone astray to sin eventually as all of us have, but only after we were born. A persons heart is not wicked until wickedness is found in it as only God knows the intents of our hearts.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

That's because we do not inherit Adams sin as it is his sin alone he had to repent of just as we have to repent of our sins when it is revealed to us. A baby is conceived and born sinless until sin is recognized and found in them.

That is because they are reading OS into the verses.

Rom 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. "

The verse says "many were made sinners" they ASSUME the many were made sinners unconditionally and against their will by inheriting Adam's sin. But nowhere in Rom 5 or elsewhere does Paul says men are sinners for inheriting another person's sins. Rom 5:12 Paul said all have sinned not all have inherited Adam's sin.

The problem they have with this verse is that if it's true that many were made sinners uncondtionally by Adam then it's also true that same many will be made righteous unconditionally by Christ. And they have Universalism with their wrong interpretation of this verse.

 

[Davies]

Hey!

Their argument seems to be one cannot be righteous having done no good but yet somehow one can be a sinner having done no sin.

Good morning Ernest, BornAgain. I hope you guys are having a good day. I say that because it seems rare that we talk with each other. So, I like to be a little personal.

You are absolutely correct in your statement. After Adam and in Adam, man contains a sin nature. That explains why we sin. Not only was man subjected to the consequences of Adam's sin, the whole of nature was subjected to it. The little ones may not have done evil or good, so suppose the question is what qualifies a person to go to Heaven. I believe the qualification is righteousness. You not only have to be without sin, you have to be righteous. People who are not able to do anything right due to age, or mental capacity, still don't qualify for Heaven because they are not righteous. So, I believe that babies and mentally disabled persons go to heaven because God imputes to them the righteousness of Jesus. I think it would be common sense that if a person doesn't have the ability to do what God commands, that God would be more than fair on their behalf. Considering the mountain of sin we do in light of God's forgiveness, it would be easy to see that God would be gracious to those who don't have the ability or the opportunity to sin. Every man born of Adam needs the blood of Jesus Christ to wash away that which is sinful, and be granted the righteousness of Jesus. Jesus was our representative, and there is no other way to the Father accept through Him.

Romans 8:20-21

New King James Version (NKJV)

20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.


- Davies

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Davies,

After Adam and in Adam, man contains a sin nature. That explains why we sin. Not only was man subjected to the consequences of Adam's sin, the whole of nature was subjected to it. The little ones may not have done evil or good, so suppose the question is what qualifies a person to go to Heaven. I believe the qualification is righteousness. You not only have to be without sin, you have to be righteous. People who are not able to do anything right due to age, or mental capacity, still don't qualify for Heaven because they are not righteous. So, I believe that babies and mentally disabled persons go to heaven because God imputes to them the righteousness of Jesus. I think it would be common sense that if a person doesn't have the ability to do what God commands, that God would be more than fair on their behalf. Considering the mountain of sin we do in light of God's forgiveness, it would be easy to see that God would be gracious to those who don't have the ability or the opportunity to sin. Every man born of Adam needs the blood of Jesus Christ to wash away that which is sinful, and be granted the righteousness of Jesus. Jesus was our representative, and there is no other way to the Father accept through Him.

Good post.

Little ones are 'vessels of dishonor' simply because they too are first flesh and all flesh is "corruptible flesh."

• 1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

Every man who has ever lived, regardless as to how young or how old, and not just every man but even every spirit:

• Philippians 2:10 "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth."
  

• Colossians 1:20 "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."

David and you and I all have a symbolic "book" with all of our preordained days written in His book, before the world began:

• Psalms 139:16 "Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them."

• 2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

Originally posted by Ernest T. Bass,

The verse says "many were made sinners" they ASSUME the many were made sinners unconditionally and against their will by inheriting Adam's sin. But nowhere in Rom 5 or elsewhere does Paul says men are sinners for inheriting another person's sins. Rom 5:12 Paul said all have sinned not all have inherited Adam's sin.

The problem they have with this verse is that if it's true that many were made sinners uncondtionally by Adam then it's also true that same many will be made righteous unconditionally by Christ. And they have Universalism with their wrong interpretation of this verse.

You're all over the place ETB, and I don't even know where you are coming from half of the time. Let's back up.

If you don't mind, go through these 6 verses one by one, and explain exactly what each one means to you. Be thorough, and Scriptural.

• Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

• Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED IN THE HAND OF THE POTTER: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

• Psalms 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and IN SIN did my mother conceive me."

• Romans 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, IN MY FLESH,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
  
  
  
• 1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
  
  
  
• Romans 8:8 "So then they that are in THE FLESH cannot please God."

 

[OldJesushippie]

Good morning Ernest, BornAgain. I hope you guys are having a good day. I say that because it seems rare that we talk with each other. So, I like to be a little personal.

You are absolutely correct in your statement. After Adam and in Adam, man contains a sin nature. That explains why we sin. Not only was man subjected to the consequences of Adam's sin, the whole of nature was subjected to it. The little ones may not have done evil or good, so suppose the question is what qualifies a person to go to Heaven. I believe the qualification is righteousness. You not only have to be without sin, you have to be righteous. People who are not able to do anything right due to age, or mental capacity, still don't qualify for Heaven because they are not righteous. So, I believe that babies and mentally disabled persons go to heaven because God imputes to them the righteousness of Jesus. I think it would be common sense that if a person doesn't have the ability to do what God commands, that God would be more than fair on their behalf. Considering the mountain of sin we do in light of God's forgiveness, it would be easy to see that God would be gracious to those who don't have the ability or the opportunity to sin. Every man born of Adam needs the blood of Jesus Christ to wash away that which is sinful, and be granted the righteousness of Jesus. Jesus was our representative, and there is no other way to the Father accept through Him.

Romans 8:20-21

New King James Version (NKJV)

20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.


- Davies

Hello, Davies.

I'm new around here. You've posted something here I had never seen before yesterday when I read it in another person's post. That is the use of Rmns 8:20-21 as part of the argument favoring the doctrine of an inherited sin nature.

Now, I've been around this planet for a long time, and have been an amateur theologian of sorts for nearly 30 years. I've done a lot of reading, but had never come across this particular argument before.

I'd love it if you could explain to me why you think Romans 8:20-21 adds to the argument in favor of the doctrine.

Thanks.

ps If you could cite some expert sources as well, I'd greatly appreciate it.

 

[OldJesushippie]

Good post.

Little ones are 'vessels of dishonor' simply because they too are first flesh and all flesh is "corruptible flesh."

• 1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

Every man who has ever lived, regardless as to how young or how old, and not just every man but even every spirit:

• Philippians 2:10 "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth."
  

• Colossians 1:20 "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."

David and you and I all have a symbolic "book" with all of our preordained days written in His book, before the world began:

• Psalms 139:16 "Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them."

• 2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

You're all over the place ETB, and I don't even know where you are coming from half of the time. Let's back up.

If you don't mind, go through these 6 verses one by one, and explain exactly what they mean to you. Be thorough, and Scriptural.

• Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

• Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED IN THE HAND OF THE POTTER: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

• Psalms 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and IN SIN did my mother conceive me."

• Romans 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, IN MY FLESH,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
  
  
  
• 1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
  
  
  
  
• Romans 8:8 "So then they that are in THE FLESH cannot please God."

I'm still waiting for your explanation of Romans 8:20. How does the passage relate to the doctrine?

 

[Davies]

Hello, Davies.

I'm new around here. You've posted something here I had never seen before yesterday when I read it in another person's post. That is the use of Rmns 8:20-21 as part of the argument favoring the doctrine of an inherited sin nature.

Now, I've been around this planet for a long time, and have been an amateur theologian of sorts for nearly 30 years. I've done a lot of reading, but had never come across this particular argument before.

I'd love it if you could explain to me why you think Romans 8:20-21 adds to the argument in favor of the doctrine.

Thanks.

ps If you could cite some expert sources as well, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Hi OldJesushippie,

I'm off to work at the moment, but give me some time, I'll try to give you what you want.

- Davies

 

[OldJesushippie]

Hi OldJesushippie,

I'm off to work at the moment, but give me some time, I'll try to give you what you want.

- Davies

I appreciate it. Take your time.

 

[OldJesushippie]

If you don't mind, go through these 6 verses one by one, and explain exactly what each one mean to you. Be thorough, and Scriptural.

• Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

• Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED IN THE HAND OF THE POTTER: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

While I'm waiting for your response regarding Romans 8:20, I'd like to talk about Jeremiah 18:4. This verse has no relationship to the doctrine of an inherited sin nature. In Chapter 18 of Jeremiah, God is addressing His relationship with Judah. God had a plan for Judah, but because of their rebellin, He had to start over with a different plan. (That's the context of Jeremiah 18:4). Judah was the lump of clay. The clay went bad, so God had to rework the clay into something else.

That "something else" in the context is judgment against Judah. Because of their rebellion, God brought Babylon to carry off the entire nation until they repented of their sins.

God is actually astonished by their willful stubbornness. Notice the words He uses in Jeremiah 18:13-15 (ESV)
13“Therefore thus says the Lord:
Ask among the nations,
Who has heard the like of this?
The virgin Israel
has done a very horrible thing.
14 Does the snow of Lebanon leave
the crags of Sirion?
Do the mountain waters run dry,
the cold flowing streams?
15 But my people have forgotten me;
they make offerings to false gods;

Nothing in Jeremiah refers to the doctrine of an inherited sin nature. I don't know how you can reach that conclusion.

 

[Osgiliath]

I'm still waiting for your explanation of Romans 8:20. How does the passage relate to the doctrine?

I have already addressed that in post #263. Here it is again in case you missed it:

• Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

You and I are "the creature". It was our Creator who "made [Adam and us] subject to vanity". Was that the result of Adam's fabled 'free will"? Absolutely not. God knew before He ever created Adam that he (and we) would need a Savior. So we are told, "NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him who subjected the same in hope".


God created Adam "marred in the Potter's hand", and had already made provision for Adam's sins by the sacrifice of His own Son. And this was all done and ordained by God "before the world began".

• 2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."
  
  [*]Titus 1:2 "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began."

The "relation" to the doctrine is to be found in understanding of the Truth of 1 John 2:16.

• 1 John 2:16 "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

Eve, and Adam with her, committed all these sins before she ever touched the tree.

• Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman SAW that the tree was good for food [The lust of the flesh], and that it was pleasant to the eyes [lust of the eyes], and a tree to be desired to make one wise [The pride of life], she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

Before Eve ever touched the tree her "made-subject-to-vanity" nature was already working in her to show her the fact that her Creator had formed her naked and of the corruptible dust. Being made "very good" had no goodness at all by reason of that which excels; "the new man."

• 2 Corinthains 3:10 "For even that which was made glorious [The first "marred " Adam] had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth [The second Adam]."

Eve committed "all sin that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" before she ever touched the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because she was a "vessel of clay... marred in the Potter's hand" and because she was "made...of the dust of the earth" and because she was "shapen in iniquity" and because she was "made subject to vanity, not [because of any supposed self] willingly but by reason of Him who subjected the same in hope."


Since I have answered your question now twice ....... how about you, as you say, "examine exegetically" the passages you believe were NOT examined exegetically - starting with the six I gave ETB (Ernest) that you quoted above.

 

[OldJesushippie]

I have already addressed that in post #263. Here it is again in case you missed it:

• Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

You and I are "the creature". It was our Creator who "made [Adam and us] subject to vanity". Was that the result of Adam's fabled 'free will"? Absolutely not. God knew before He ever created Adam that he (and we) would need a Savior. So we are told, "NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him who subjected the same in hope".


God created Adam "marred in the Potter's hand", and had already made provision for Adam's sins by the sacrifice of His own Son. And this was all done and ordained by God "before the world began".

• 2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."
  
  
  
  [*]Titus 1:2 "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began."

The "relation" to the doctrine is to be found in understanding of the Truth of 1 John 2:16.

• 1 John 2:16 "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

Eve, and Adam with her, committed all these sins before she ever touched the tree.

• Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman SAW that the tree was good for food [The lust of the flesh], and that it was pleasant to the eyes [lust of the eyes], and a tree to be desired to make one wise [The pride of life], she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

Before Eve ever touched the tree her "made-subject-to-vanity" nature was already working in her to show her the fact that her Creator had formed her naked and of the corruptible dust. Being made "very good" had no goodness at all by reason of that which excels; "the new man."

• 2 Corinthains 3:10 "For even that which was made glorious [The first "marred " Adam] had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth [The second Adam]."

Eve committed "all sin that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" before she ever touched the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because she was a "vessel of clay... marred in the Potter's hand" and because she was "made...of the dust of the earth" and because she was "shapen in iniquity" and because she was "made subject to vanity, not [because of any supposed self] willingly but by reason of Him who subjected the same in hope."


Since I have answered your question now twice ....... how about you, as you say, "examine exegetically" the passages you believe were NOT examined exegetically - starting with the six I gave ETB (Ernest) that you quoted above.

I'm sorry. I'm not able to follow your line of thought on this. It seems, to me, that you're grabbing several unrelated verses and attempting to tie them together.

My question regarding Romans 8:20, specifically, was why you think the verse is relevant to the doctrine of an inherited sin nature. The reason I ask is that I am unaware of anyone throughout Church history making that claim. Obviousy I haven't read everything that has been written on the topic. Moreover, I've forgotten most of what I've ever read. So if you don't mind, I'd like to know the source of your claim.

 

[Osgiliath]

I'm sorry. I'm not able to follow your line of thought on this. It seems, to me, that you're grabbing several unrelated verses and attempting to tie them together.

My question regarding Romans 8:20, specifically, was why you think the verse is relevant to the doctrine of an inherited sin nature. The reason I ask is that I am unaware of anyone throughout Church history making that claim. Obviousy I haven't read everything that has been written on the topic. Moreover, I've forgotten most of what I've ever read. So if you don't mind, I'd like to know the source of your claim.

Of course they are related. The subject is about man's innate inclination to sin - his natural propensity to sin.

Eve (and Adam with her) committed "all sin that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life" BEFORE she ever touched the tree of the knowledge of good and evil BECAUSE she had (in her NATURE) the propensity to sin.

How else could Eve (and Adam) have sinned if they didn't have the innate inclination to sin in the first place? It would not be possible. Common sense alone tells us this.

Eve (and Adam, and ALL of us) was a "creature that was made subject to vanity - NOT WILLINGLY - but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope." (Romans 8:20)

Adam's sin was not merely the result of his disobedience. His disobedience was the result of the fact that he was "marred in the hand of the Potter," and he "was shapen ['in the hand of the Potter'] in iniquity, AND IN SIN..."

These are all very tightly woven together, and are all tightly related.

Psalms 119:160 "The sum of Thy word is truth, And to the age is every judgment of Thy righteousness!"

As far as my source, at the very least, 90% of all my posts are Scripture passages. The Word of God has always been my only source (as far as written material - obviously the Holy Spirit is the TRUE source). I wasn't raised by my parents in Babylon (orthodoxy), and I never was a member of the Great Harlot, or any of her daughters in my long adult life. The root of the word Babylon is "confusion." How true that is! Hence, I stay away.

 

[OldJesushippie]

I can't see any connection because the topic of Romans 8 is NOT "man's innate inclination to sin - his natural propensity to sin." Nor is that the topic of Jeremiah 18:4. You've taken these verses away from their contexts and have twisted them to fit into a man-made doctrine. You have not demonstated how these verses are contextually tied to the topic.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by OldJesushippie,

I can't see any connection because the topic of Romans 8 is NOT "man's innate inclination to sin - his natural propensity to sin." Nor is that the topic of Jeremiah 18:4. You've taken these verses away from their contexts and have twisted them to fit into a man-made doctrine. You have not demonstated how these verses are contextually tied to the topic.

Well, I have given you all that I can without "exceeding what is written":

1 Corinthians 4:6 " "Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other."


Maybe if you explain the verses "as you see them" I can give you more Scripture, but for now I'm going to have to leave it at that.


By the way, I like your user name. I'm an Old Jesus Hippie myself. Now, I'm going to give you a REAL test to see if your user name is authentic to you.

Finish this line:

"Right outside the lazy gate of winter's summer home; wondering where the nuthatch winters; wings a _____________; ________________________________________________ "

 

[smaller]

You can say multiple times God created man corrupt contrary to Eccl 7:29 but there is no verse for you to back that up.

Again and again the only failure involved is a nearly complete and utter failure in this entire 'thread' to factor in the devil into the equations of sin and to view them and SIN as 'internal' matters.

Even provided a GLARING example of a DEVIL being in A CHILD.

There is no way to 'measure' this factor other than to observe a couple of very simple facts about 'sin.'

A. All have sin
B. Sin is in fact 'of the devil.'

We also observed from Matt. 5:28 and other scriptures where SIN and EVIL are in fact 'internal' in originations and not just in the EXTERNAL SIGHT of same.

If God created man corrupt then that puts blame and culpabilty on God for man's sins and man has no accountability for his own sins.

Culpable is only a matter of perspective if God Himself provided the CURE in Jesus Christ.

The man with one talent tried to blame his actions on God by calling God a "hard man" Matt 25:24 According to some here the one talent man could only do as God created him to do so he would have been JUSTIFIED in blaming God for his actions for God caused him against his own will to bury his one talent. But then we have God punishing this man by casting him into outer darkness for doing what God caused him to do. God does not cause men to sin just so God can have the pleasure of punishing him, Eze 33:11

It is not surprising that you can not seem to come to simple grips with some basic observations and instead defend a 'doctrine' that has obviously ZERO ability to grasp the matters put to you.

Yet the man of his own will chose to bury his one talent and God had no culpability in it so the idea of OS and totally depravity should be rejected for putting blame and culpability of mans' sins upon God.

When you get around to meeting on some factual ground maybe it'll come to you? I am not fond of discussing with blind programming courtesy of trying to uphold doctrines that can not observe and engage with simple facts as delineated prior and herein.

s

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Ernest T. Bass,

Again where in Jer 18 does it say the Potter made/forced the clay to mar just so it can be made into a vessel of dishonor?

Really? Have you never read?

Take note of what Paul says:

• Romans 9:20-21: "But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?"

The "sum of God's Word is truth."

• Psalms 119:160 "The sum of Thy word is truth, And to the age is every judgment of Thy righteousness!"

Look at "the sum of Thy Word" in these passages, and your question is answered:

• Romans 9:20-21: "But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?"

• Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED IN THE HAND OF THE POTTER: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

• Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

 

[Davies]

Hello, Davies.

I'm new around here. You've posted something here I had never seen before yesterday when I read it in another person's post. That is the use of Rmns 8:20-21 as part of the argument favoring the doctrine of an inherited sin nature.

Now, I've been around this planet for a long time, and have been an amateur theologian of sorts for nearly 30 years. I've done a lot of reading, but had never come across this particular argument before.

I'd love it if you could explain to me why you think Romans 8:20-21 adds to the argument in favor of the doctrine.

Thanks.

ps If you could cite some expert sources as well, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Hi OldJesushippie,

Looking back over my post, the reason I quoted Romans 8:20-21 is because I said, "Not only was man subjected to the consequences of Adam's sin, the whole of nature was subjected to it." My thinking is that because of Adam's sin, creation suffers. God cursed creation for man's sake. Now, I don't think that is an argument that the children of Adam have a sin nature, but it shows that creation was subjected to futility. John MacArthur puts it this way in his study Bible:

8:20 futility. This refers to the inability to acheive a goal or purpose. Because of man's sin, God cursed the physical universe (Gen. 3:17-19), and now, no part of creation entirely fulfills God's original purpose.

So, OldJesushippie, I'm sorry I wasn't able to satisfy your love of an explanation of man's inherent sinful nature in Romans 8:20. I didn't mean to say that. Kapesh?

Now Romans 5:18,19 are different, and would contribute support that man has an innate sinful nature after Adam's disobedience. I have introduced this verse earlier in the thread, and Ernest, who has been contrary just about to everything I believe from the Bible, didn't prove disappointing as he disagreed with my understanding.

Matthew Henry's Commentary, p. 1765: v. 18,19
First, By the offence and disobedience of one many were made sinners, and judgment came upon all men to condemnation. Adam's sin was disobedience. The thing he did was therefore evil because it was forbidden, this opened the door to other sins. The malignity and poison of sin are very strong and spreading, else the guilt of Adam's sin would not have reached so far. Who would think there should be so much evil in sin? By Adam's sin many are made sinners: many, that is, all his posterity, Made sinners, It denotes the making of us such by a judicial act . Judgment is come upon all those that by Adam's disobedience were made sinners. All the race of mankind lie under a sentence, like an attainder upon a family.

attainder 1: extinction of the civil rights and capacities of a person upon sentence of death or outlawry usually after a conviction of treason
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J. Vernon McGee, Through the Bible, Vol. IV, p. 680

Therefore as by the offence of on judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life [Rom. 5:18].
This is the underlying principle of the imputation of sin and the imputation of righteousness. This is the doctrine of the federal headship of the race in Adam and Christ.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous [Rom. 5:19].
Here Paul sums up his argument on federal headship: Adam's one act of disobedience made all sinners--not just possessors of a sin nature, but guilty of the act of sin. Christ's obedience--His death and resurrection--makes it possible for God to declare righteous the sinner who believes in Him.

I would add that it was not only Jesus' death and resurrection, but it was all of Jesus' righteousness He did while here on Earth.

Again I say, we should be able to see the wisdom of God when he imputed sin to our account when Adam sinned, because now that Jesus is our representative, we can enjoy the benefits of His righteousness being imputed to us when we believe or trust in Jesus.

This is not universalism as Ernest would think I'm proposing, because the gift is not like that which came through Adam. One act brought death to all, but the other brought life to those who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness. Romans 5:16-17.

I thought two experts would be enough, but I think there's three because Paul's words aren't that difficult to understand.

- Davies

 

[Yodas_Prodigy]

We are born with a sin nature. That nature is transferred from the father to his progeny. When Adam fell, we all fell with him. My father has a sin nature. Thus, I have one, as do my children. Look up tradeucianism. That may give you some insight as to why other than Christ and Adam, there has never been any other sinless people walking around.