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At the revelation of Jesus Christ...

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smaller said:
I'd say the 'evidence' on that matter is abundantly clear and openly shown.

The fact that believers have sin and sin is of the devil is a pill that so few care to swallow as a fact it is astounding. It is 'immediate' in rejection to every single believer that hears of it.

Who me? I ain't got no sin OF THE DEVIL.

Sure.

And we can look at scriptures all the day long showing this to be a fact and it will still be denied and denied vehemently, all the while believers of every flavor perpetually seek to cast each others into the eternal flames.

Nah, no beastly activity there. Huh uh. Nope.

s
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No surprises here..

Do you agree that the beast of revelation is the man of sin.. ie, that they're the same ?
 
Then how about Revelation 11 where it speaks of the Temple.. the two witnesses.. and the kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ.. within the context of the things which shall be hereafter..
 
Then how about Revelation 12, the woman being with child.. and then being protected in the wilderness for three and a half years.. even from the Dragon who is cast down to earth... does the dragon end up sitting within the woman there too..?
 
No more, you guys be polite.. If not your whole post will be deleted, this on going hostility is not for me to sort through. Please try and be men not boys.

Infractions are next.
 
They cannot see that "The time IS at hand," and "ALL the sayings of this book" happen "quickly" in the lives of those who know that they must experience every seal, trumpet and plague within themselves; in other words "ALL the sayings of the prophecy of this book." Even now, as it has been for the past 2000 years, all those who understand what is meant by "keeping the sayings of the prophecy of this book" experience "ALL of this book."
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The "book" of Revelation is composed - in part - of seven letters to seven specific, historical churches in western Turkey that were experiencing many of the same issues Paul addressed in his letters, not the least of which were the eating of meat offered to idols and false apostleship.

Any attempt to "spiritualize" the historicity of these churches and their unique problems destroys any rational interpretive foundation we have for understanding this book.

Obviously, therefore, I completely disagree with your assertion that we can even keep any of the prophecies of this book 2,000 years later, as it has all been fulfilled, just as was recorded in the first and last chapters:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:1-3 (NASB)

And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. Revelation 22:6 (NASB)

And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Revelation 22:10 (NASB)

"Soon" and "near" to them 2,000 years ago cannot possibly also mean "soon" and "near" to us 2,000 years later, or the words "soon" and "near" have no meaning whatsoever!

These words - so important to John that he began and concluded the book with them - are the very bedrock upon which any interpretation of Revelation must be founded, or there is no hope of understanding any of it at all!
 
Be not ignorant of this one thing...

The Apostle to the circumcision teaches us to not be ignorant of this one thing.. that a day with the LORD is as a thousand years and a thousand years are as one day..

This is important.. especially when considering the living and powerful words of the one who inhabits eternity.

John (another Apostle to the circumcision) outlines the book of Revelation for us with respect to the things which he has seen (past), the things which are (present) and the things which shall be hereafter (future)..

Failure to read the revelation (or unveiling of Jesus Christ) within its proper context has resulted in all sorts of craziness.. and the book is clearly divided with respect to these things..

What else do we know.. ?

We also know that the LORD continues to build His church.. and this of course relates to the things which are.. and we also know that He shall present it to Himself as a glorious church without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.. and of course the revelation speaks of the marriage of the Lamb (of God) to His wife in Revelation 19.. within the context of the things which shall be hereafter..

For some reason though... it's absurd for the word of God to be applicable to anything hereafter.. as if the LORD has no ability to communicate the things which shall be hereafter..

It's silly.. the gospels themselves have all sorts of things which shall be hereafter... one of my favorites is Matthew 19 where it speaks of the LORD sitiing upon the THRONE of His glory in the REGENERATION.. and how that His Apostles will also sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.. Luke 22 affirms the same thing and there it's within the context of His KINGDOM..

To put the entire word of God into the here and now, or into the past.. misses the things which shall be hereafter.. and if people would like to insist that this was hereafter to a previous generation.. then they're simply making the LIVING and POWERFUL word of God of none effect.
 
Understanding how God's prophesies have been fulfilled does not negate the word of God, but rather confirms it to those who believe. For example, we know the Messiah came as was prophesied, and our faith in God is strengthened by that. In the same way, this is how Jesus confirmed with many in the first century the covenant that God would send the Messiah. Those people of God who would not believe in the fulfillment of that promise through Jesus are today called Jews. We have a lot of eschatological Jews in Christianity these days. I understand how difficult it can be to set aside the daydreams of what we would like the Kingdom of God to be, and take up the glorious mundane reality of tribulation and triumph promised in scripture.
 
Sinthesis said:
Understanding how God's prophesies have been fulfilled does not negate the word of God, but rather confirms it to those who believe.
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If the living and powerful word of God speaks of the things which shall be hereafter.. and you say that they're the things which were.. then you're making the word of God of none effect.

Let's take a simple example of how easy this plays out..

Revelation 11...

Explain how it lives and abides if you neglect its context and apply it to the things which were.. rather than the things which shall be hereafter....

And by all means.. explain when this all happened..
 
Here's another simple example..

The Day of the Lord shall come as a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child..

Explain how applying this to the past does not make the living and powerful word of God of none effect..

Also, the Apostle to the Gentiles warns of those who say that the Day of the Lord is at hand.. and tells us to not be deceived by those who would say that it is..

How does forcing this into a past context not make the word of God of none effect ?

On the other hand.. a Christian who accepts the word of God as living and powerful can rest in this simple truth and thereby not be deceived by those who say that it is past or present.. although in your case.. it would have absolutely no effect at all.
 
John (another Apostle to the circumcision) outlines the book of Revelation for us with respect to the things which he has seen (past), the things which are (present) and the things which shall be hereafter (future)..
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Yes: the immediate, imminent future to John and the churches to whom he was writing. The future that was less than 2 years away, not more than 2,000 years away! "Future" to John has to be seen in the terms "soon" and "near" to them or nothing in the book makes sense!
 
Understanding how God's prophesies have been fulfilled does not negate the word of God, but rather confirms it to those who believe.
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And is the strongest argument to win the hearts and minds of those who don't. Futurists of all stripes have taken that arrow out of their quiver with the perpetual promise of His coming "soon."
 
These are the 7 letters (with consensus dates)[3] considered genuine by most scholars (see main article Authorship of the Pauline epistles: section The undisputed epistles):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_epistles


All written before 70 AD. The future to Paul and the other writers of the NT is past to us and has been so for almost 2,000 years.
 
Re: willful ignorance...

It should also be obvious to anyone here that those who scoff at the promise of the LORD's coming do not believe that God is capable of speaking with respect to the future.. when He does come in power and great glory with thousands upon thousands of His saints..

To these.. the word of God is nothing more than a history book.
 
Stormcrow said:
Yes: the immediate, imminent future to John and the churches to whom he was writing. The future that was less than 2 years away, not more than 2,000 years away! "Future" to John has to be seen in the terms "soon" and "near" to them or nothing in the book makes sense!
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Soon to you means two years? Isn't this just stretching the word "Soon" to accommodate history you wish to pertain to the doctrine of Preterism?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
the most miserable of all men...

Eugene said:
I reckon it doesn't get any better than this huh?
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The most miserable of all men can never be content with those who actually DO have faith, hope, and love for the Lord Jesus Christ and His promises.. they must do their worst to steal all that away..

It's nausiating but true.. and they do it willfully.
 
i wonder, eventide. i know you wont get it and likely have me on ignore. but as a jew. and i do talk to my kin on judiasm when i can. i have this to ask

when the jews look for the messiah and he appears to them. they will then see if he has the power to raise the dead. if he does or doesn then will know he isnt one. they believe that all jews will be returned to the land. if that is going to happen a its a deception. then it would be logical to assume that all jews wherever will be in isreal when this happens and none in any gentile land or at least attempting to move to isreal.

if that is the case please show me where if one is saved outside of isreal where it says he is no longer a jew or isrealite or hebrew?
 
This thread has had posts deleted due to arguments that will not be tolerated. Please do not make your comments as personal attacks, and stick to the OP. Thanks. :rant
 
smaller said:
READ: Mark 4:15

Every believer believes that it is only 'them' there in their heart.

It's not.

s
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Do you believe that the man of sin is able to dwell with the Holy Spirit and defile the place where the Holy Spirit dwells?

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:17


JLB
 
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