Battered Sheep

[Vince]

Some time ago, I was informed that I was the moderator of a nearly-dead forum dedicated to helping victims of church abuse. We grew from two posts a week to about thirty, before a trio of bullies showed up and got the forum shut down.

But I learned a lot, did a lot of research, and was able to help several grateful Christians get straightened out after their bad experiences.

Now, Brethren, this is a subject that unleashes a lot of hatred and bitterness. I am asking the moderators to immediately delete posts that launch personal attacks. I realize that there will be angry posts by people who have been hurt by churches, when I try to show them how to deal with these problems, But I want us to try not to turn this into a hate thread.

 

[lamplady]

Some time ago, I was informed that I was the moderator of a nearly-dead forum dedicated to helping victims of church abuse. We grew from two posts a week to about thirty, before a trio of bullies showed up and got the forum shut down.

But I learned a lot, did a lot of research, and was able to help several grateful Christians get straightened out after their bad experiences.

Now, Brethren, this is a subject that unleashes a lot of hatred and bitterness. I am asking the moderators to immediately delete posts that launch personal attacks. I realize that there will be angry posts by people who have been hurt by churches, when I try to show them how to deal with these problems, But I want us to try not to turn this into a hate thread.

: ... couldn't you had just banned the bullies rather then shut down the forum? ...

 

[craigmn3]

victims of church abuse.

Church abuse victims are often guilty of self inflicted wounds. When you have a healthy respect for the bible, and you are a Berean, how can a church really hurt you. Only when personal relationships, expectations, and feelings are over committed do these abuses usually take place. Involvement in a church is completely voluntary, and how you involve yourself is completely up to you.

I realize that there will be angry posts by people who have been hurt by churches, when I try to show them how to deal with these problems, But I want us to try not to turn this into a hate thread.

I would urge equal restraint on the part of the people who have been "hurt" to realize they were not "victimized" unaware

My wife was "hurt" in this way (involving the Pastor's wife and another woman) and came to realize her part in the unfortunate affair


(Completely off subject, why I am suddenly hungry for batter dipped deep fried lamb?)

 

[Vince]

I appreciate the courteous responses.

I didn't own the site. It was practically dead when I started posting on it, and the owner sent me an e-mail telling me that I was the moderator. After a few months, three bullies showed up and followed everything I posted with several posts that "buried" my post. They attacked me as a tool of Satan sent to get people into church (no joke).

The owner had spent a lot of money on an unscriptural site. He had wanted to encourage Christians to stop going to church. God had never blessed the site until I became moderator, but he explained to me that the fighting was too much and he shut down the site.

No one claimed sexual abuse.

 

[Igor]

I'm wondering, too, what kind of "church abuse" victims you are referring to? People who have been treated badly by other people that happen to be part of their church (much like what human nature causes to happen in most organizations, schools, or workplaces)? People who have been abused by the church as a whole (Maybe such as a gay person who has been battered by the hate certain churches have taken as their official stand against homosexuality)? Or are you talking about someone who is part of a church, where the whole church has suffered some kind of abuse from outside, and they have personally suffered as part of that church (perhaps like a church with a different doctrine than the majority in an area, such as a Catholic church in a predominantly Baptist area or maybe even a Christian church in a predominantly Muslim country)?

 

[Vince]

Igor, most of them had similar complaints. They had faithfully attended and served, and then they had a strong disagreement with the leadership over something. It couldn't be worked out, and they left or were pressured to leave. Some had returned to other churches, but most were no longer attending anywhere.

Most of them appeared to be genuine Christians. I used the old posts to contact several of them, most of whom were happy that somebody cared. And several of the old posters had found the cure: get into a different church.

 

[Igor]

Igor, most of them had similar complaints. They had faithfully attended and served, and then they had a strong disagreement with the leadership over something. It couldn't be worked out, and they left or were pressured to leave. Some had returned to other churches, but most were no longer attending anywhere.

Most of them appeared to be genuine Christians. I used the old posts to contact several of them, most of whom were happy that somebody cared. And several of the old posters had found the cure: get into a different church.

Ahhhhh, I understand now. Actually, I have been exactly there myself a while back! I've got to finish some other stuff and get to bed right now, but I'll come back here and share my experience and the solution I found soon.

 

[stovebolts]

I think that there is a misnomer that the "perfect" church exists or that one won't be hurt by somebody within a particular church. But I don't think that this is cause for leaving a church.

I know that I've been hurt, and so has my wife by people in our own church, but some how or another it always seems to work out, as long as we stick it out and give it to God in prayer.

I think what drives me nuts is when somebody says, "That church did x to me..." When in reality it was X person, or persons withing 'that church'. I just don't think it's fair to paint a whole congregation with the same brush because of a few people.

An example would be where I was at X church and the Eldership really did me wrong and got me to doubt in an area where they should not have due to their own traditions. It really caused me much un-needed grief. I remember after I had sorted it out how I was angry with "That church" but then I thought of all the people that I really enjoyed, appreciated and even looked up to and I realized that I wasn't angry with "That church", but rather, I was angry with "Those elders". I didn't turn tail and find another church, instead I confronted them and worked through it.

 

[Vince]

Upset over what had happened to them, many Christians had decided that it is better that they never attend church again. Yet, Hebrews 10:25 commands us "not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching."

Some responded to this verse by piling up other Scriptures that they claimed taught that we were not to attend church, but every verse they used, without exception, was mis-applied. God, Who wants what is best for His children, commands us to be in church.

The solution to their problem was to solve their problem, not to disobey God.

 

[barelohim]

Upset over what had happened to them, many Christians had decided that it is better that they never attend church again. Yet, Hebrews 10:25 commands us "not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching."

Some responded to this verse by piling up other Scriptures that they claimed taught that we were not to attend church, but every verse they used, without exception, was mis-applied. God, Who wants what is best for His children, commands us to be in church.

The solution to their problem was to solve their problem, not to disobey God.

Why is it, that christians take the New Testament and make it LAW?

Barelohim.

 

[craigmn3]

Why is it, that christians take the New Testament and make it LAW?

Barelohim.

Law no, the will of God...most definitly

 

[Mike]

Law no, the will of God...most definitly

 

[Vince]

Upset over what had happened to them, some Christians would argue for the belief that a child of God should not attend church, but rather, should study the Bible independently and serve God alone. I pointed out that these people were rarely doing anything at all for God.

Hebrews 10:25 is the verse most often used to show that we should attend church. The previous verse states "And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works," which brings up a future point: You should not be attending a church that does not stir you up to love and good works.

John 1:7 tells us "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another..." I had to be careful about saying this, but a person who practices solitary Christianity is not walking in the light.

Titus 1:3 tells us that God "...has in due time manifested His word through preaching."

These verse do not change the fact that these people were suffering from a real problem. But abandoning church is not the correct solution to the problem.

 

[handy]

I was waiting for a specific event to take place before responding to this thread.

Sheep get battered, warriors get wounded. Churches can and do abuse people.

Church abuse victims are often guilty of self inflicted wounds. When you have a healthy respect for the bible, and you are a Berean, how can a church really hurt you. Only when personal relationships, expectations, and feelings are over committed do these abuses usually take place. Involvement in a church is completely voluntary, and how you involve yourself is completely up to you.

Not always. Not when it involves a child.

OK, so now I'll relate...my best friend from high school, much more a sister than friend after all these years, not to mention my mentor in Christ, attended a church for 30 years. She married a guy who was on their "cradle roll" and they have been very active members of that church, supporting missions and ministries, leading Bible studies, singing solos and in the choir, all the ways a lay person can minister in a church, between the two of them, they did.

Naturally, when they adopted their kids, they brought the kids in for dedication, and the church leadership and congregation took vows to help raise those kids in the nurture and admonition of the Lord and to love them and help them in every way.

Two years, when their daughter was just 14, a guy, a lay minister with the college age crowd, who was 24, seduced their girl and coaxed her into sending nude pictures of herself to him over the phone. When the story came out, the parents went to both the police and the church leadership.

The police got right on the case. They gathered the evidence, pulled phone records, sent everything to the district attorney who filed charges. The case was well on it's way through the court system.

The church leadership however...it was made perfectly clear that to them, what was most important was that no waves were to be made, that nothing would come out to cast a bad light on the college group or the leaders of it. They absolutely refused to have the guy step down from lay ministry, nor would they separate the college group from the high school group, keeping the sexual predator in with the underage girls.

Even though my best friend and her husband went to the leadership in confidence, and explained to them that they were under strict orders by the DA NOT to discuss the case, somehow, in someway, a story started going around. But, in the story that went around, their daughter, the 14 year old girl, was a slut, a temptress, who tried to cause the downfall of a good man of God, the 24 year old, the guy 10 years older than her, being the "man of God". The gossip mill ground out all kinds of stories, up to and including that the reason why their family finally left the church was because she got herself pregnant. (Love how the little girl manages to "get herself" pregnant!)

Her parents hands were tied about answering any of the gossip with facts, because the DA warned them repeatedly NOT to discuss the case.

Yesterday, the court case wrapped up and the guy was sentenced. Everyone accepted a plea bargain. He is to spend 60 days in jail, pay all court fees, go to court mandated psychological counseling, and must stay at least 500 feet away from her. He also must register as a sex offender and is on probation for 5 years.

Now, my best friend and her husband are in the process of writing out a letter if you will, that will bring out all the facts of this case. They are going to go to their former church, to the ministerial board meeting, and they are going to let them have it. They are going to remind them of the vows that they took upon this young girls dedication, and then remind them when she was victimized and needed help the most, they threw her under the bus, because they didn't want bad PR for the college group.

If I could, I'd fly down there, just to stand behind them as physically as I am spiritually and mentally. My poor little "niece" was so traumatized by what happened to her. She has been through hell and back.

Fortunately, she is back, but not because of the church, not even her new church. She is back via the support of her parents, her true friends, a truly sweet and godly young man, and some professional counseling. All these people, God has brought to her to help her sort out the fact that she was a victim of a sexual predator, and that she was also victimized by a church which didn't act like a church, who sheltered the sinner, threw out the child and did nothing to stem the gossip about her.

It is a sad thing when a child sees that there is more chance of justice via our messed up court system than from the church.

The DA, who is a Christian, when he got the case (long story, our justice system is messed up), asked Mark and Kathy, "I hope that all this hasn't turned you away from God?" They said no, that it actually brought them and their daughter closer to God, but that they are far more wary of Christians.

 

[Vince]

Handy, I am very sorry about what happened to your friends, and I hope that they have recovered.

Incredibly, no one on the Battered Sheep forum had suffered from sexual abuse, and I have personally dealt with a suspected predator on only one occasion. I do pray that they are able to solve the problem.

 

[Vince]

We'll have some controversy here, but I made the following observations, which I can't prove from Scripture, while moderating Battered Sheep.

1) The majority of Christians who are upset at church did not obey the commands in Hebrews 13 to obey those that have the rule over them.

2) A distant second were Christians whose leaders really were power-nuts, and they didn't leave when they should have.

3) In third place came bullies who traveled from church to church, demanding authority, and who were run off as a result.

 

[Vince]

Let's look at Hebrews 13.

7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct.

17 Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

Notice that the words "pastor," "bishop," "elder," "superintendent," etc., do not appear in this passage. Those who rule over you are DEFINED as having taught you the Word of God, and as watching for your souls. If they aren't doing that, they don't have rule over you, regardless of their office.

 

[Vince]

Some Christians posted stories about their church leaders being heavily power-driven, often quoting Hebrews 13 to demand obedience. Some leaders claimed to be prophets, demanding control of people's lives and teaching that disobeying them was rebelling against God.

Brethren, when a leader claims to speak for God, that automatically excludes the work of the Holy Spirit in your life. Anything the Holy Spirit leads you to do is canceled by the leader. What really amazed me is than many of them were leading small congregations, whom most Christians regarded as somewhat crazy.

These leaders were characterized by threats of Divine wrath on anyone who left. But many people did leave, and God did not punish them.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Domination -

I used to participate in a "survivors of Toxic churches" site out of Canada, although the victims were from all over.

Many of them were Ministers, youth pastors, and Worship leaders themselves who'd been beaten up by a Manipulative and dominating style of church leadership. "Performance based" Christianity, as it were.

I recall one lady (who was so personally damaged by her experience that she couldn't even ENTER a church building without getting physically ill) saying that she had been sick one morning, but the "pastor" of the church made the Congregation STAND for the entire 2-1/2 hours of the service, while he sat in a chair and preached at 'em. And if anybody would sit down he'd berate them in front of the congregation for being "rebellious".

Hobart Freeman (Warsaw Indiana) REQUIRED that any member of his "Faith Fellowship" - had to DROP all their insurance coverage (which you COULD do in those days), and NEVER either go to doctors or hospitals, and NEVER take any kind of medicine (including over the counter stuff) - since that was all DOUBT, and without "Faith" it was impossible to "Please God". Some estimate the "Body count" of that ministry to exceed 100 folks - many were infants who died in childbirth. Hobart himself died of a leg infection that was completely treatable.

Some of the stories of sensory deprivation, Religious bullying, Judgmentalism, and abusive practices were almost beyond belief -

BUT when you are conditioned to think that you MUST BE PART of a group who HAS THE TRUTH - in order to be "right with God" - it's AMAZING what folks will put up with - to avoid losing their peer group affiliation.

IN fact my pastor and his wife right now are "Survivors" of an TOXIC Aesthetic Group out of Chicago. She's STILL got "issues" with things she suffered in those days.

Bottom line - no "Shepherd" EVER DRIVES his sheep - he leads 'em.

Simple as that, and any time you're part of a Group, or under a ministry that teaches that THEY are the ONLY ONES with the "truth" -

RUN!!!! RUN AWAY!! and don't look back.

It seemed that the BIGGEST practical problem that the "survivors" had to deal with was NOT to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" - and to realize that there was a "Right Version" of many of the things that the TOXIC churches had taught a DEAD WRONG version of.

 

[Vince]

Good to hear from you, Bob, and thank you for your insights.

The Barna Group does studies on churches, and they describe "bullies" as people who demand leadership in churches. The church is given a choice: submit to their rule or be wracked by internal fighting that will never stop.

Three bullies had shown up at Battered Sheep while I was the moderator. One had been a layman who held the title of "assistant pastor," and he had led a revolt from the pulpit one Sunday morning. He was angry that no church would allow him to have any position of leadership now. These three were rejected as leaders by every local congregation they had gone to, and they had been "run off" by every church they attended.

Their teaching was that churches are evil, because no church was spiritual enough to submit to their rule.

Few Christians do this, but these three did gain an audience before the owner shut the site down.