Why sin at all?
If men love God above all else, they will rejoice at the fact they have been freed from service to sin. (John 8:32-34)
A futile endeavor, as placating the flesh is not something done by those walking in the Spirit.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Bible Study Battling evil desires
- Thread starter Hopeful
- Start date
1 Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Well - you are not disagreeing with me.
1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
Either these verses counter one another or else they are directed at two different kinds of people.
Verse 7 pertains to those who walk in the light, and verse 8 pertains to those who walk in darkness.
Why can't we say we have no sin after having been cleansed of all sin?
Really nice post!!!
You can know God, listen to Him, learn from Him and not learn from Him!!
What is a disciple of the Lord except someone who is learning from Him. But if a disciple then not the perfect One!!
It goes back to a couple of Christian license plates I like:
One say, "A work in progress"
The other says forgiven not perfect.
We are the work of His hands, but isn't it obvious when we listen to Him that we are not the completed work?
We are saved by faith, not our perfect works. That being the case we should be thoughtful and considerate to believers coming to our church struggling with issues/ desires of their own. We do not take the attitude that we are perfect, and all unrighteousness is sin. That attitude is a self-righteous attitude. We take the attitude that we are sinners in need of our Lord, so that we seek Him, His voice, His instructions, His teachings, His reproof, and so on. We disciples of His are disciple because we want to learn from Him!
This is a rather sensitive subject for me, not because I have come out of situations which are generally condemned by our society, but because the Lord had me spend five years working in a Christian healing ministry!!
I learned a lot from that ministry, and what I learn was that Christian have problem, issued, struggles. When I first got to the ministry I for some reason thought I would be dealing with a lot of unbelievers, but that was not the case. Oh, a few came in who did not yet know the Lord, but mostly it was a Christian ministry for Christians!! They had problems, issues, struggles, and we prayed for them and turn to to the Lord for help!!!
Frankly, there was not a person working in that ministry who did not understand that we are all a work in progress. I don't think the Lord would let them work there, and I don't see how they could. First of all anyone coming to the ministry had to go through it first and the Christians I worked with there heard from the Lord especially well. It does take long before He starts showing you things a person needs prayer for and problems that they have. Still, getting that information and finding out how He wants you to proceed are two different things.
Perhaps the most common way He asked us to proceed was to lead them through forgiveness. That is done by having them ask the Lord for information as to who they need to forgive. The one most often people need to forgive is themselves. That is not usually the first thing the hear from the Lord. First, as they listen, they usually hear about someone they already knew had done something against them. That gets them listening to His voice. Then He often reminds them of someone they had forgot about. That improves their hearing. Then suddenly they start picking up that they need to forgive themselves for making mistakes. I saw it happen enough times over the five years that I almost expected it, though I could never be sure until I saw Him do the work He does in the people.
It is not mistake that after John wrote 1 Jn 1:
Just because a verse does not fit your personal theology you can't throw it away and pretend it does not exist!! You can't change the meaning in the verse by saying something like 'that used to be true', when there is not reason. It is it written 'I do the things', you can't say it means 'he did the things' because you don't like it.
So 1 Jn 1:7 reads : "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
The verse stand as is but your theology has to adjust!!
John wrote "If we say" so he did not say "If they say" - Was John not a Christian? Did he not know the Lord, and better than you or I? And he wrote "If we say" So it applies to Christians who know the Lord!! But some throw out that verse and say it does not apply to them. Are they then not Christians, like John? Perhaps - that is not for me to say, but it is for them to examine. And how would that verse help a person examine themselves?
Well, obviously they could read the verse and consider if they are saying they have no sin. If that was the case then they are deceiving themselves and the truth is not in them. They need to adjust their theology. Yet they are confused. They read another verse which reads "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
Then they think, 'If the blood of Jesus Christ has cleansed us from sin then we must not have sin." OH - but it does say that, it says it cleanse us not that we don't have sin but that that we have been cleansed of it. But they can't understand how a person can be cleansed from something and still have it.
If you don't understand something should you not take it to the Lord - because you still can't throw out verses because you don't understand how the two go together, and these 2 especially go together. The are right nest to each other.
The answer is in the forgiveness, not the removal! But if you don't talk to the Lord perhaps you still don't understand. The Lord shines light on a subject!! Or what did you think " walk in the light, as he is in the light" meant?? It means the Jesus Christ has the words of God and those words from His mouth give you knowledge and understanding!
John and Paul, and those who wrote the Scriptures listened to the Lord and had understanding and a knowledge of the Lord. They understood that we have sin - not had sin but have sin. They understood the principle that sin dwells in us. They also understood the forgiving power of the blood of Christ. He doesn't remove our sin, He takes our sin and makes it right by His blood. His blood was the sacrifice for our sin, past and present!! Have we not read about the cross? Have we not read the Bible?
Is 1: 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
It is not written that He removes our sin, it is written that He changes the color of our sin from red to white!!!!
The cleansing then is the removing of death from our sins!!!!!
Yet some still think that the cleansing meant removing, why? Are they not listening to Him? Perhaps they are thinking that their mind instead of His voice will provide the wisdom, understanding, and knowledge they need? That is not what is written!
Prov 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
We have to seek the Lord and listen to Him if we are to get understanding. It is written that they will all be taught of God, but does not the "all" there mean 'all His sheep'? So then not all, but all His sheep. His sheep hear His voice. They take their questions to the Lord and He explains them. Yet if they take them to Him and they explain they are still learning then. So perhaps there are Christians who have not gone over the forgiving power of the blood of Christ yet. Of course if they have been in a discussion for days on end and still have not taken the question to the Lord, when are they going to listen to Him. Do they even believe He is there for them?
We have people being drawn to our churches. Those people are people like us, with problems, issues, desires, and the sinful nature that has been passed down from Adam and Eve. We have that. So we all need the Lord Jesus Christ, His wisdom, teachings, counsel, instruction, and more. A Christian is a person who realizes that, so they seek Him and His voice which comes to us via the Holy Spirit. He then forgives us our sins (past, present, future) and cleans us from them, not by removing them but by forgiving them and not remembering them. In His mind He removes them from us as far as the east is from the west, so that He can not see them because they are over the horizon and no long in His view, but we still have sin! To God they now look white like snow instead of red like death.
If you have a student who is learning, does it not please you that they are learning??
So then the mistakes someone makes while learning is not wrong but is the part of the process of learning!
So if you are learning from the Teacher, your mistakes are not wrong but are part of the process of learning!
It doesn't mean you don't make mistakes it only means God views you as His student/disciple and not the criminal He must judge. Christian are supposed to be His students/disciples, and that because they hear His voice. He does not condemn His students, but as for those who do not believe in Him and thus listen to Him, their sin and judgement is on their own heads. They don't ask for Him to forgive them, they don't even think they have sin.
They don't see the light, they don't have the truth in them! They have deceived themselves! Thus all the verses go together as written. So Paul wrote to lead them to Jesus. So John wrote to lead them to Jesus. So I write to lead them to Jesus, that they might realize their problem, repent for not seeking Him, listen to Him, be reproves by Him, and turn and be taught by Him. If they go and reason with Him He will change the color of their sins from the red of death to the white of life, and that by the forgiving power of His blood.
Both verses fit "my" theology, and I have not thrown either away.
One is applies to those walking in darkness and the other applies to those walking in light.
Were your POV true, verse 7 and 9 are lies and we cannot be washed of all our past sins by the blood of Christ or cleansed of all past unrighteousness.
They are not lies, but apply to different groups of men.
John uses an A-B, A-B, A-B pattern similar to Paul's use of the same pattern in Rom 8. (Spirit-flesh, Spirit-flesh, Spirit-flesh.)
The verses applicable to those in the flesh don't apply to those walking in the Spirit.
It is the same pattern used by John in 1 John 1.
the mule is looking at the new gate
Hopeful,
I just want to say that we HAVE been FREED from service to sin.
SERVICE TO SIN.
This is what repentance is. It's freeing ourselves from slavery to satan.
This is quite different than NEVER sinning.
Jesus was the only person born to man that was able to never sin.
It's interesting to ponder that you believe you are on the same level as the One Who died for your sins.
Being disciples of Jesus means we learn from Him...it doesn't mean we will ever be like Him, not even after death.
John says "little children do not sin"....
BUT if you DO SIN (or, and if anyone does sin) we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus THE righteous, and HE HIMSELF is the
PROPITIATION for our SINS. That would be all sins, past, present and future.
1 John 2:1-2
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
I'd also like to bring your attention to the prayer Jesus taught to the Apostles, and which He told them to pray always - this and other prayers.
Mathew 6:9-13 THE LORD'S PRAYER
verse 12:
12and forgive us our sins,
as we have forgiven those who sin against us.
Jesus knew man would continue to sin, but taught us to change our heart so that we would not want to.
If you think you've never sinned in the past 24 hours, you're living a much holier life than some monks I knew that KNOW they are not perfect and pray for forgiveness every day.
This is true. A person could be a disciple of Jesus and be in a non-learning state of mind.
I'm sure this has happened to all of us at one time or another.
There are new Christians, Christians that are slow learners, and some learn very little but they still have
a love for God and wish to be a child of His. If the heart is sincere, this is all that is necessary.
God knows our heart.
I remember the same bumper stickers.
Both are true.
Forgiven but not perfect. We will NOT be perfect until our glorification.
Only Jesus was perfect. We must strive for perfection as a goal; Jesus said to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect.
Being God, He knew that we could not be perfect....
Matthew 5:48
47If you are kind only to your friends,s how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that.
48But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.
Be perfect...this is our goal.
Our goal is to live as children of God.
As subjects to His Kingdom here on earth right now.
To see ourselves as God sees us...as through Jesus.
Amen to all of that.
John states clearly in 1 John 1:10 that to say we have not sinned makes us liars. John lived many years and he saw many
Christians sinning, and this is also why every book in the NT speaks of keeping the commandments and keeping away from sin - because we need encouragement and the word of God.
If we became perfect upon our becoming believers, all these exhortations would not have been necessary.
Jesus said if we are His disciples, we will continue in His word
John 8:31
He said that if we are his disciples we will love one another.
John 13:35
And if we sin, Jesus gave us a way out --- with confession.
John 20:23
Agreed. And God bless you for your good work.
We are a work in progress.
This is called sanctification.
Justification happens immediately upon our repentance.
Sanctification is a work in progress and continues throughout our life and, hopefully, we become better and better.
Amen brother!
The spirit-flesh pattern you speak of is referring to the sin nature with which we are born.
Do you believe this sin nature - or flesh - goes away when we become born again?
Could you post some scripture in this regard?
I can't think of any.
it does Not THIS IS WHY OUR sanctification is in stages being sanctified set apart Changed from Glory to Glory . i will challenge any one to anything contrary of that. we have to grow in his grace and knowledge . the only way we can grow is by abiding in him when we have a unfruitful area in our life he removes it. called pruning sometimes we have a fruitful area that is well developed that he will remove so new growth can take place
I agree with you jerry.
And as long as we have this flesh, or sin nature, or concupiscense, call it what you will, sinning will always be possible
but always kept to a minimum if we listen to the Holy Spirit and we don't wish to grieve Him.
This is the difference between a sin and a life of sin.
I also agree about sanctification being in stages.
Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
Galatians is a very good source where paul wrote about the battle of flesh and spirit . paul wrote
“But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” romans 8 tells us how we are set free .but the war continues
Romans 7:23
“But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” romans 8 tells us how we are set free .but the war continues
You are kind of blending two different things.
The truth frees us from service to sin/satan, (John 8:32-34), but repentance is our actually turning from sin, permanently. (2 Cor 7:10)
It may be a matter of semantics though.
If we turn from sin, future sin means the "turn" was a lie to God.
We can't build a relationship with God that is based on lies.
Because of our rebirth, I can make the same claim Jesus does.
I am not of Adamic seed anymore, but of Godly seed that cannot bear the devil's fruit. (1 John 3:9)
Wow.
What happened to "victory in Christ"?
You seem to associate with those who do sin, in spite of the message NOT to commit sin.
I associate with the part about not sinning, and those who do sin are those who have either not heard about freedom or have rejected it.
Perfectly apt prayers for men in the OT.
Jesus' prayers have been answered, however, so need not be repeated again.
Had their repentance from sin been real, they would not need to keep asking for forgiveness.
The must have forgotten the part of the bible that says the truth can free us from committing sin.
I wonder what they considered the truth?
Yes, I know it does.
Sure,
Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
Rom 6:6-7..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin."
1 Peter 4:1..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"
Rom 8:1..."There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Rom 8:9..."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
It's not a matter of semantics...you've stated the two different things correctly.
The truth: You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Free from what?
Free from the grip of satan.
Free to understand the mechanisms of life and how evil works within our world so that we could avoid it.
Repentance means to turn and go in the other direction.
It's not sin from which we're turning....it's our DIRECTION.
When we're born and through our life we are walking in the direction of satan...no matter how good we are.
When we repent of our sins,,,,we change our direction and begin to walk toward God. We realize that we are made in God's image
and desire to serve HIM.
When we sin, we do NOT change our direction. We are still walking toward God. We ask forgiveness and continue in our walk.
This is why it's called a walk....we continue this walk for our entire lives.
Here are some interesting verses:
Genesis 6:9
These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God.
Noah was blameless - not sinless.Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.Galatians 5:16
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.The desires of the flesh are the desires of one that lives a life of sin. Christians do not do this because they walk with the Holy Spirit; but it's always possible to commit a sin.
Psalm 119:133
Keep steady my steps according to your promise, and let no iniquity get dominion over me.Iniquity is different from committing a sin:
As found in the Bible, “iniquity” is defined as being wicked or immoral in nature or character. Primarily, it indicates "not an action, but the character of an action", and is so distinguished from "sin". Therefore, we have the phrase "the iniquity of my sin" (Psalms 32:5). Iniquity can be described as the essence of wrongdoing or evil, while sin is this quality actually enacted in the world.
You are of Adam's seed.
God made only Adam----the rest of humanity comes from Adam's sin.
Adam made us all suffer from the fall because HE is the representative of all humans.
You keep bringing up 1 John 3:9
Again,,,,this refers to A LIFE of sin...NOT the committing of a sin.
A life of sin means a person decides to continue to keep on sinning.
Romans 6:12
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
It says DO NOT LET SIN REIGN....IOW, do not let sin have domionion, or power, over you.
1 John 5:18-19
18We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.
19We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
As John already stated in 1 John 3:9....Christians do not continue to practice sin, or continue to sin....
and the rest of the world is under the control of satan...but we are not.
You're right in that the ones' who are saved are truly free from the reign of satan and sinning.
I think every Christian understands this and "associates with that part", as you've stated.
If you're close to God and know how holy and perfect He is....you will no longer think of yourself as perfect....
but will cry to God for even thinking this since His holiness will be so apparent to you.
We have victroy in Christ because we are free from satan's grip.
Maybe you're familiar with the Christuf Victor theory of atonement?
Jesus prayer, taught to the Apostles, is for now.
Prayers to God have remained the same in both the OT and the NT.
Jesus said to PRAY LIKE THIS...He did not say that after His death and resurrection prayer would no longer be necessary.
Each one of the above verses is referring to the Christus Victor atonement theory.
We crucify the FLESH....our old man. We no longer SERVE SIN.
You seem to not know the difference between SERVING SIN and SINNING.
We no longer WALK after the flesh --- or SERVE the flesh...but we serve the Holy Spirit.
And, as the scripture says in John 8:34, freedom from committing sin.
If it wasn't sin from which we turned, we will continue to commit sin.
That is continued service to sin...not God.
Those walking towards God don't serve other masters.
We don't agree on that point.
It is only possible if one is NOT walking in the Spirit.
Those walking in the flesh are not of God.
As 1 John 3:9 says..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Don't kid yourself.
I was of Adam's seed before I was killed with Christ and raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
You have successfully found a doctrine that allows sin into a life allegedly born of Godly seed.
The truth of John 8:32-34 can free you from it.
You should read 1 John 3:10 too.
Verses 9 and 10 define who is, and who is not of Godly seed.
We are commanded to be perfect by Jesus, the Son of God, in Matt 5:48.
To refuse to comply indicates one serves themself ahead of serving God.
That is idolatry.
Then quit making excuses to sin.
Crucified flesh cannot commit sin.
There is no difference between sinning every day and sinning once a year.
They both are products of that flesh we allegedly crucified.
1 Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
"All unrighteousness" - means of course "All unrighteousness" which mean of course all things done which are not right.
If you take a test and don't get 100% on the test, that is unrighteousness!! If you had only said and done what the Father told you then you would have gotten 100% on your test, because God certainly know the right answer at all times! Jesus said He did and said only what the Father told Him, and He is "The Word of God" because He does and says only what the Father tells Him.
The angels is heaven, though they faithfully serve Him, are not the "Word of God: only He is. We know that only He is worthy. We know that only God is good and that the Word is God. So even the angels in heaven are not the worthy One.
So even the angels in heaven are counted as righteous because they faithfully serve the Lord, and not because they only do and say what the Father tells them. We are saved by faith and faith comes from hearing. So there is a sin that does not lead to death and a sin of unbelief that does lead to death. So we are to be like the angels in heaven who listen to Him and do what He says, though they may not get every word right because they are not the Word of God.
I know that you already wrote that you don't like my interpretation of "All unrighteousness", but "All unrighteousness" means "All unrighteousness" whether a person likes that or not.
And so also the other verses also mean what is written. So you can think what you want, but it is written:
1 Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
You can believe what you want, and there is a sin that does not lead to death - then again we shouldn't deceive ourselves, the Lord won't. Only God is good, and He knows He is God and you are not. He knows He is the Word of God and you are not. It is enough that you listen to Him and try to do what He askes, just like the angels in heaven. They of course are better at listening to Him and doing what He wants that you and I are. We believers are of course aware of that because He has sent angels to us to minister to us and from listening to them we became aware of all this, right. Oh - maybe some are still growing and still learning that too. You don't have to get 100 % right on the tests He has for you, you just need to believe in Him. That belief means you are counted as being righteous, just like Abram.
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Of course if you are doing and saying only what the Father tells you (like Jesus) then you are indeed doing everything right - then I guess you don't need to have your belief in the Lord counted as righteousness to you, because you are in fact not getting anything wrong. Of then God is then a liar because it is written that all have sinned and that nobody knows the Father except the Son and any the Son shows Him to.
However if a person were to write that they felt that by the use of their mind they are going to do the right thing, they then show that they are not doing and saying only what the Father tells them. We have the mind of Christ, via the Holy Spirit, but if you are listening to the Holy Spirit then you know the the Lord's thoughts are not your thoughts!
People amaze me! Oh, I amaze me also. I can hardly believe that I, who know the Lord, don't seek Him more. Typically I usually only seek Him about a dozen different times a day, when I should seek Him for every word I say. I told Him once that I was going to do that - He told me that I was not the Word of God, He was. It was enough that I believed in Him and tried to do what He asked. I was to be like the angels in heaven, so start working on that. It amazes me that I am not better at seeking Him and doing what He tells me. I even get mad at Him at times. But even more amazing is that people tell me how they do everything right - Oh my - it is a clear sign they are not talking to Him or the angels He sends to minister to us. It does not take long, a moment maybe, until you realize how far off you are from being even like that angels in heaven, and certainly not perfect like Him. You are not even close.
The truth of the matter is that the more you listen to Him, the more you understand how far off you are. King Saul wrote proverbs, then got older and wiser still and wrote Ecclesiastes. The fact is that it is not your thinking but Him being God. So what to do? Eat and drink and enjoy life - but who can do that without Him?
Ecc 2:25 For who can eat and who can have enjoyment without Him?
The eating and drinking above is really the eating and drinking of Him. Not your own mind, but His mind! That is the wisdom that King Solomon got. All the proverbs came from Him and the voice of His Spirit. The understanding came from the mouth of the Spirit too. I remember the time the Holy Spirit told me, "People don't have understanding because they don't read the Bible with understanding but their own understanding, understand?"