birth control

[CatholicXian]

Click here for the article

It seems as though the condemnation of birth control is no longer "just a Catholic thing", but now also includes Protestants to form a more universal Christian stance against artificial birth control (as was the case before the 1930's).

Any thoughts?

 

[cubedbee]

I think this fallacious argument is getting rather old, and have difficulty understanding why it is endlessly repeated.

Some would say that this command no longer applies because the earth is full. This teaching that the earth is overpopulated or may soon be is a humanistic, pagan myth. Christians who teach this display their ignorance and sadly show once again that too often the presuppositions of popular 20th century Christianity are the same as the world's.The truth is, all the people of the world standing side by side in a four foot square area each could fit in the city of Jacksonville, Florida, leaving the rest of the world wide open. (Read The Economics and Politics of Race: An International Perspective by Thomas Sowell.)

What does this have to do with anything? Does a human being inhabit a 4 ft square area? Does everything that a human being needs to live come from the 4 ft square area around them? There is 0.5 acre of arable land for every human on Earth. I know very little about farming, but this is a rather small area and I have trouble believing all the food a person needs to live could be raised in a half acre. Not to mention, we use arable land for growing our clothes and building our houses as well. And for generating electricity, and for modern medicine, and for dozens of other things. So yes, if you think all humans have to do is stand around, then the Earth isn't remotely close to being overpopulated. If you open your eyes even a slight bit to the realities of life, then the world's overpopulation is evident.

 

[Blue-Lightning]

Whether or not I agree with birth control (will let that be a secret for now), the article is riddled with cherrypicking and faulty logic.

Later,

BL

 

[CatholicXian]

I wasn't attempting to say that the article was infallible. In fact, I didn't even say I thought the article was good... Rather, I was attempting to comment on the fact that birth control seems to be taking a back seat in a broader spectrum of Christian circles nowadays, and was curious as to what others thought of that.

 

[Quath]

I don't see the reason that some Christians are against birth control in the first place. I only see two places in the Bible where s seems prominent. The first is God saying to be fruitful and multiply. God also said to kill non-virgin brides and sacrifice animals to Him. You can't pick and chose which commands you are going to obey.

The other is the story of Onan and Er. God kills Onan for tricking his father and his brother's widow. It doesn't seem God killed just because they practiced birth control.

But this issue just shows that religion is about controlling its people.

Quath

 

[CatholicXian]

God also said to kill non-virgin brides and sacrifice animals to Him. You can't pick and chose which commands you are going to obey.

Some commands were part of a covenant law (Old Law)--which was fulfilled in Christ (and thus, no longer necessary). Other things are a part of natural law, and thus, universal and unchanging.

The command to be fruitful & multiply would fall under natural law... "fruitfullness" is the natural "fruit" of intercourse between man and woman.

The other is the story of Onan and Er. God kills Onan for tricking his father and his brother's widow. It doesn't seem God killed just because they practiced birth control.

Onan didn't trick anyone, he delibrately prevented his seed from having the chance to fulfill his obligation to give his brother's widow children. BUT, the punishment for not giving your brother's widow children was public humiliation, not death. Thus Onan committed another wrong...

But this issue just shows that religion is about controlling its people.

How so? No one can be forced to do anything. We choose to do what we do. Married adults are old enough to make their own decisions... and be responsible for them.
I would also add that rejecting artificial birth control is not a matter of control (incidently, birth control would seem to be more a matter of control)....

 

[cubedbee]

The command is be fruitful and multiply. It is not "Be uncontrollably fruitful like rabbits and mulitply." A couple who has had two or three children and decides they have had enough have certainly obeyed God's command. They started out as a family of two and doubled their size.

If, as this article seems to be arguing,we are to be as fruitful as possible by not using any artificial birth control, shouldn't we take it a step further? Adam and Eve didn't have fertility clinics, but if they did, the best way to obey God's command of being fruitful and multiplying would have been to use one. A woman is much more fruitful with the help of science than naturally. IF God's command means to put fruitfulness above all else, then most people are disobeying God's command by not using fertility clinics.

 

[Quath]

Some commands were part of a covenant law (Old Law)--which was fulfilled in Christ (and thus, no longer necessary). Other things are a part of natural law, and thus, universal and unchanging.

The command to be fruitful & multiply would fall under natural law... "fruitfullness" is the natural "fruit" of intercourse between man and woman.

How do you decide that having as many children as possible is any more natural than killing? Did God call it a natural law or is it a guess?

Onan didn't trick anyone, he delibrately prevented his seed from having the chance to fulfill his obligation to give his brother's widow children. BUT, the punishment for not giving your brother's widow children was public humiliation, not death. Thus Onan committed another wrong...

That is interesting. I never heard that before. Could you point me to where in the Bible it says this?

How so? No one can be forced to do anything. We choose to do what we do. Married adults are old enough to make their own decisions... and be responsible for them.

The threat of hell goes a long way towards coercing people to do stuff they would rather not do. The threat of eternal punishment is much more ffective than the Old Testament focus on killing.

Quath

 

[CatholicXian]

However, God's commands are not to the detriment of our personhood, etc. Fertility clinics, etc. are sufficient, but not necessary. Furthermore, where do you see "uncontrollably fruitful" implied? Are you implying that those with more than 3 children are irresponsible (aka "uncontrollably fruitful")?? Of course not. Married couples are called to prayerfully consider the size of their family as is responsible according to their living situation.
Responsible parenthood is the key to NFP (etc.)... nothing about being "uncontrollable"...

 

[CatholicXian]

Quath... Deuteronomy 25:7-10 describes the punishment for breaking Levite law.

 

[cubedbee]

However, God's commands are not to the detriment of our personhood, etc. Fertility clinics, etc. are sufficient, but not necessary.

You've already lost me. How is a fertility clinic to the "detriment of our personhood?"

Furthermore, where do you see "uncontrollably fruitful" implied? Are you implying that those with more than 3 children are irresponsible (aka "uncontrollably fruitful")??

The article makes the voluntary using of birth control sound like it is sinful and against God's command. Hence, it is implying the command tells us to "uncontrollably" multiply. I believe the command is to multiply, but that it gives us the option to do it in a controlled way. I'm not implying anything about individul responsibility--I'm simply talking about whether the overall command permits human discretion on the timing and magnitude of the multiplication.

Of course not. Married couples are called to prayerfully consider the size of their family as is responsible according to their living situation.
Responsible parenthood is the key to NFP (etc.)... nothing about being "uncontrollable"...

Exactly. And birth control is the best means to responsibly maintain our family size.

 

[CatholicXian]

cubed... I didn't mean to imply that a fertility clinic was a detriment (not at all.. fertility clinics are great). I meant to imply that being "uncontrollably fruitful" (i.e., being fruitful in a way that is unhealthy (which is what "uncontrolled" would imply)) is not what God intended in His command.
Secondly, artificial birth control I would argue is implied to be sinful in the Scriptures. NFP is a controlled way of spacing births. With our reason, God gave us a discipline called self-control. To reject artificial birth control isn't to give in to uncontrollable sex. We are above our emotions and urges.


A few things that might be worth spending some time reading:
Humanae Vitae
Casti Connubii

 

[Quath]

Quath... Deuteronomy 25:7-10 describes the punishment for breaking Levite law.

Deuteronomy 25:7-10 is punishment for a brother refusing to marry his dead brother's wife and mate with her. I am assuming that Onan married Tamar (or had sex out of wedlock which would get him killed I believe.) He refused to give her a child which is worse than refusing to marry her. Basically he got to have sex without the responsibility assumed behind it.

So I see it as a far stretch to say that God killed Onan for using birth control. It seems more reasonable that God killed Onan for deceiving all people by pretending to giver her a child.

Quath

 

[CatholicXian]

How did Onan pretend to give her a child? :-?

 

[Quath]

How did Onan pretend to give her a child? :-?

He pretended to put his seed in her when he used the pull out method instead. Since God didn't kill her also, I assume she wasn't in on the deal.

Quath

 

[CatholicXian]

Umm, Onan didn't "pretend" to do anything... he delibrately pulled out because he didn't want to give her a child.
But we discussed this already anyhow: the punishment in Deuteronomy for a man who refuses to give his brother's widow children is public humiliation (Deut 25:9), not death.
Why then did God kill Onan? You view pulling out as something non-serious... but perhaps there is more to it? Onan disrupted the sexual act, he engaged in it... but not completely. Perhaps there is something to be said about that?

 

[Quath]

Umm, Onan didn't "pretend" to do anything... he delibrately pulled out because he didn't want to give her a child.

Did Onan tell Tamar he was going to have sex with her but not put his seed in her? If so, why didn't God kill her for doing the same sin Onan did (sex without going for reproduction)? So I assume Onan did this without her permission and maybe her knowledge.

If he did it without her permission it was rape. That could have been why God killed him.

If he did it without her knowledge, then God may have killed him for the deception.

Now it could have been because Onan practices birth control. Or it could have been that Onan really irritated God for some other reason (after all God had killed his brother, Er, with little emphasis on why.)

So it seems that a lot of people are being made to have large families (which is useful in a farming community but results in poverty in many cases) for uncertainity in understanding this passage.

Why then did God kill Onan? You view pulling out as something non-serious... but perhaps there is more to it? Onan disrupted the sexual act, he engaged in it... but not completely. Perhaps there is something to be said about that?

It could be. But it is guesswork. It sounds like the right way to approach this is it was God's decision and people should not presume to know and act like God.

Quath

 

[CatholicXian]

So it seems that a lot of people are being made to have large families (which is useful in a farming community but results in poverty in many cases) for uncertainity in understanding this passage.

It is not merely based on this single passage alone. It is based on the Scriptural understanding of man and woman. The interpretation of this passage in such a fashion to see artificial birth control as immoral fits well with the rest of the Scriptures.

Furthermore, the aim of not using artificial birth control is not to have the biggest family on the block--having upwards of 5 children is not the purpose of NFP. Did you read the two documents I posted links to? You might find them informative.

(I'm taking out my younger cousin for our "girl's night" in a bit, so if I have time before then, I'll add more, if not, I hope to add more to this by tomorrow)

 

[cubedbee]

Secondly, artificial birth control I would argue is implied to be sinful in the Scriptures.

I see no such implication. Please argue your case, as this is the crux of the matter. Certainly nothing wrong with NFP, but it is less reliable and convenient than artificial birth control, and if the latter is not sinful then there is little reason to practice the former.

 

[CatholicXian]

Why Contraception is immoral (from the Scriptures):

First of all, I think it appropriate to define what exactly contraception is. Contraception is "any action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act [sexual intercourse], or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" (HV#14). The dictionary (Webster's) sums it all up in saying that contraception is the "deliberate prevention of conception or impregnation". There are two important parts to notice: firstly, that it is deliberate (i.e., intentional), and secondly it attempts to prevent (render impossible) conception/impregnation.

What differentiates the conjugal act from other acts of intimacy? Parenthood. To remove this aspect of sexual intercourse, is to drastically change the act of intercourse. No longer is it a unique expression of love, but merely just another way of expressing affection for another.


Genesis 1:28, 9:1,7; 35:11 – "Be fruitful"
From the beginning, the Lord commands us to be fruitful ("fertile") and multiply. A husband and wife fulfill God's plan for marriage by cooperating with God in the bringing forth of new life, for God is life itself.
Genesis 38:8-10 – Onan
Though we have briefly discussed it, I still include it here for the reason of Deuteronomy 25:7-10â€â€the punishment for not giving your brother's widow children was not death, but public humiliation. Thus, Onan committed another wrong, and the only other wrong the Scriptures leave us with is that Onan pulled out (which is a form of contraception…).
Leviticus.18:22-23;20:13 - wasting seed with non-generative sexual acts warrants death. This is also why homosexuality and bestiality are abominationsâ€â€they are dead ends that can produce no life.
Deuteronomy 23:1 - whoever has crushed testicles or is castrated cannot be a part of the congregation. Why? Again, he cannot fulfill his duty as a husband… he cannot participate with God and his female spouse in the generation of new life.

Another Perspective: Blessings
Furthermore, children are referred to as "blessings" in the Scriptures. From whence do children come? From intercourse. Where in Scripture are we given positive examples of husbands and wives coming together in intercourse for the sole purpose of pleasure/union apart from procreation? We don’t.

Exodus 23:25-26; Deut. 7:13-14 - God promises blessings which include no miscarriages or barrenness.
1 Chronicles 25:5 - God exalts His people by blessing them with many children.
Psalm 127:3-5 - children are a gift of favor from God and blessed is a full quiver.
Hosea 9:11; Jeremiah 18:21 - God punishes Israel by preventing pregnancy. Thus, contraception is like a curse, and married couples who use contraception would seem to be willfully putting themselves under the same curse.



I am unaware of any other interpretations that fit so well with the rest of Scripture. And as well, it is interesting to note, that up until the Lambeth Conference in the '30s that ALL Christians (Catholics & Protestants) condemned artificial birth control. Seems like a late date to be changing the faith, does it not?