By what power did they do THEIR miracle?

[Orion]

Found in Exodus chapter 7:

11Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers, and they, the(A) magicians of Egypt, also(B) did the same by their secret arts. 12For each man cast down his staff, and they became serpents. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs. 13Still(C) Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

By what power did Pharaoh's "men and sorcerers" complete this act of magic? Regardless of who's snakes were eaten, I find it interesting that demons would be capable of such impressive feats of matter manipulation. Why don't we see them doing such things all the time, when they obviously have the ability?

Before you answer, "this happens all the time in the occult", I have personally been on forums for those in "Pagan religions", asking what types of "supernatural experiences" they have had, and no one has ever mentioned anything even close to this level of abilities.

Did this event really happen? What would be the reason why God would even "stoop" to this level of "power demonstrations"?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

In Eygpt today snake charmers can make Cobra's stand still. Its like hypnotizing the snake. Maybe thats what happened.

 

[handy]

It's hard to know whether the Egyptian priests were using occult practices or just really good stage illusion. While I haven't seen a magician turn a staff into a snake, I did see David Copperfield turn a man into a woman, from across a 50 foot divide in a matter of a spit second as well as turn a piece of ordinary binder paper into a living rose. I have no idea how he accomplished these things, but it was well worth the $30 admission price to see him do it.

As to "What would be the reason why God would even "stoop" to this level of "power demonstrations"?

Because however unimpressed we might be by the power or supposed power of the priests, the Egyptians of the day totally believed in them. It's a good bet that many of the Israelites also believed in them (meaning that they thought the gods were real) even if they didn't follow them. Pharoh was not only the head of the legitimate government of Egypt, he was considered one of their gods. Having Moses best Pharoh's priests, (yes, playing a 'game' of my God is better than your god) gave Moses legitmacy before both the Egyptians and the Israelites, as both a spiritual as well as governmental leader. Would God do the same today? Most likely not, definitely not here in America. But, we live in a different time and place, with different issues of disbelief.

 

[Orion]

You know, . . . last night, I watched a program on "unbelievable magic", and some of it was SO obvious and even cheesy. The did the "dissappearing an extremely large object" , a Russian Tank (they were in Moscow, so they said), with "members of the Russian army there", . . who were OBVIOUSLY actors, acting all confused how a tank could just dissappear. VERY bad acting on their part, hardly believable. There were a few magicians who did some very well done "slight of hand", but it is always a concealment situation, just before something pops up in view.

Now, if someone took a stick, and I inspected it AS a definite stick, . . . then with the power of the supernatural, threw it down and it became a snake, and there was no natural way to explain it, then I think you would get a lot of people's attention. I know it would get mine.

However, the story doesn't seem to indicate that their "staff to snake metamorphasis" was anything other than supernatural powers. I suppose it could have happened as a "slight of hand" on the Egyptians's part. Yet, even after this "contest" was over, didn't the Egyptians change their minds again?

I'm not saying that this didn't happen, . . . . but stories like this read more like "stories the Israelites told to their children". . . . later thought to have actually happened. Same for the flood and even the traditional Adam and Eve account.

 

[handy]

Once you know the basic prinicple, the 'making extremly large object disappear' is always cheesy.

Copperfield was great, simply because of the way he selected the man and woman (by randomly throwing a tennis ball over his back into the audience, then having the ball thrown by whomever caught it, again over their shoulders, four more times, 5th person came up on stage) and the simple speed of the illusion. I mean the guy was on one part of the stage, the woman was about 50 feet away from him, then big, bright flash and suddenly he was where she had been and vice versa. It was cool. Especially since I can't figure out how he did it. Once I figure out how it's done, like David Blaine's 'floating on air' trick, it's no longer interesting.

I don't discount the occult. But, I also don't discount really good stage illusion on the part of all those priests and magicians who were supposed to show what powerful 'gods' the Pharoh's were, expecially since the Pharoh's themselves must have known that they weren't.

As for the Exodus account, I think the only reason why it's gotten the feel of a fairy tale, is because it's told over and over again to children in Sunday School. Same with the "baby in the manger" story. It sounds like a fairy tale as well, but I have no problem believing that it's exactly what happened. Agincourt sounds like a fairy tale too, but it did happen.

 

[Orion]

Agreed on the "finding out how the magic trick works". Many times the "unsuspecting person in the crowd" is part of the act, and many times is a twin. It's fun to watch it transpire though, especially when you are with someone who doesn't know the trick and to see their reaction. "How did they DO that????" hehehe . . . . Good times!

I have less problems with believing the "baby in the manger" though. The other stories just seem so "fairytail"-ish, that it is sometimes hard to take them seriously. I don't say that of the New Testiment accounts of miracles though, specifically those performed by Jesus. I can agree that they are in the realm of belief.

 

[wavy]

the power of the egyptian priests was performed by their gods (cf. exo xii.12). moses winning the contest shows the superiority of yahweh over the gods of egypt.

~eric

 

[Imagican]

I would interject that they did what they did in the name of FALSE gods. And that it was through outright 'trickery', and of NO POWER whatsoever except in DECEPTION.

Having spent MOST of my life practicing magic, I ASSURE you that I could produce the EFFECT as offered in Exodus. And it's NOT EVEN a very DIFFICULT thing to do. One must recognize that the EFFECT would be APPEARANCE rather than ACTUAL Magic. So long as it LOOKED as if it happened, it doesn't MATTER the actual mechanism of the feat.

We have NO indication that Satan is ABLE to produce ANYTHING that those that worship HIM don't WANT to SEE. There is NO indication whatsoever that Satan is ABLE to physically manipulate matter. It may SEEM this way to the observer, but it is ONLY ILLUSION.

For there WILL be those that CHOOSE to follow LIES, and for these, God will offer STRONG DELUSION so that they will BELIEVE these lies.

No different than those that would SWEAR they witnessed the likes of 'Benni Hindi' HEAL people. They BELIEVE what they are LED to BELIEVE and then walk away SWEARING by what they THOUGHT they SAW.

The human mind has an amazing ability to SEE what it CHOOSES to SEE. How many times have EACH of us THOUGHT we saw something 'different' than what was actually present before our eyes?

I can take a ONE dollar bill and stand three feet away from you. Fold it in half, half again, and then half again. Right in front of your eyes whether you are standing in front, by my side ANY angle where you can SEE what I am doing, and when I UNFOLD IT, it is a ONE HUNDRED DOLLAR BILL. I have NEVER been CAUGHT at this illusion.

I can HAND YOU A QUARTER and have it TURN INTO a 'half dollar' IN YOUR HAND. I can take a ball point pen and stick it directly through the middle of a dollar bill. SHOW YOU a foot away that it is STUCK THROUGH the BILL and then RIP it out of the bill only to show that there is absolutely NO DAMAGE to the bill whatsoever. Hand you the bill and hand you the pen and allow you to inspect the two till your hearts content.

The point is, that through the PRACTICE of DECEPTION, one can acheive the SEEMINGLY IMPOSSIBLE. But it's ALL just ILLUSION. There is NO SUCH THING as ACTUAL MAGIC other than the manipulation of Spirituality. There ARE 'familiar spirits'. There IS sorcery involved with incantaions and there is Spiritual power in the occult. But there is NO PHYSICAL manipulation of that which is material. If there is this manipulation, it is SCIENCE not magic.

So, the magicians of Pharoah were 'tricksters' and were ONLY considered to BE 'magicians' by those that simply DIDN'T know the 'mechanisms' of their 'tricks'.

Whereas MOSES was NOT a 'trickster' but following the WILL of God. And it was NOT Moses that performed the MAGIC, but God performing a 'miracle' so that they WORLD would COME TO KNOW HIM. No different than Christ and the apostles HEALING the sick, raising the dead, or Christ WALKING on water. This is NOT 'magic' but LITERAL miracles.

MEC

 

[mutzrein]

Hey MEC - I wondered where your handle came from :o

Anyway - was just wondering what 'magic' you could replicate as spoken of in Exodus.

 

[Imagican]

Hey MEC - I wondered where your handle came from :o

Anyway - was just wondering what 'magic' you could replicate as spoken of in Exodus.

I am a 'former' Magician. Both in practice and performance. I have basically 'put away' such childish things in persuit of that which is MUCH more able to edify the Spirit rather than the carnal fulfillment that such persuits have offered in the past.

Still filled with the skills that one developes with OVER thirty years of PRACTICE and performance.

As I stated previous. If you allowed ME to 'set up' the environment in which to perform such demonstration, I could EASILY perform that which we performed by the 'magicians' of Pharoah. Now, Moses' feat, on the other hand, would be IMPOSSIBLE to replicate WITHOUT the DEVINE intervention that took place in Egypt. How can one MAKE one snake EAT others? Now THAT would be a 'trick'. But MIRACLE would better describe what God performed THROUGH Moses in the Egyptian Court.

But, I COULD turn water in what LOOKS like Blood, (or EVEN blood, but that would be pretty gross). Water into wine, or WHATEVER and the reverse of such; hence wine into water or Blood into water.

I could turn a LIVE Chicken into an eight piece dinner. Or make a 'cigarette' FLOAT right out of my hand with you standing three feet away from me.

But you DO understand that I have OPENLY admitted that ALL these things that I am able to DO are ONLY in appearance. For there is NO SUCH THING as 'magic' other than in the Spiritual realm. What I practiced and performed were mere ILLUSIONS or slight of hand. NOTHING Spiritual at all, (even though there was CERTAINLY allusion to the Spiritual used in my performances. Just as the famous offering of; "The hand is quicker than the eye". ANYTHING to offer a distraction is used. For MOST of what is 'slight of hand' or 'illusion' relies on the 'bait and switch concept of 'distraction'. I won't use the exact terms for the sake of those that DO spend years of their lives in practice. It IS unfair to reveal the actual mechanisms of that which some spend MANY MANY MANY hours of their lives practicing in order to be ABLE to offer spectacular performances. Suffice is to say that the 'hand is NOT 'quicker than the eye'. But if I am a magician, I would LOVE for you to BELIEVE it).

I still do little tricks for the grand kids and such but my days LIVING in THAT world are OVER.

My user name came naturally for I tried EVERYTHING ELSE I could REMEMBER before FINALLY being ABLE to use what you see now. That is my EVERYTHING 'username'. Such as: imagican@earthlink.net.

But there is CERTAINLY a distiction between MIRACLES and MAGIC. Though SOME believe Magic IS Miraculous, that is ONLY in perception not truth.

MEC

 

[Veritas]

Huh... thats great to hear from your point of view MEC. I guess I didn't realize you were a magician at one point in time. I bet your grandkids think its pretty cool!