Calvinism and Darwinism

[Dude named Louis]

If the leadership of this site thinks that those who follow reformed theology are worshipping a false God, then maybe that should be made clear.

Louis, I have pretty much agreed with most of what you have posted since you've been here. I have also made it clear in the past that this sort of Calvinism-bashing will not be tolerated any longer. I've pleaded in this thread alone that if anyone is in doubt as to what calvinism is, they should study it without bias. I have also said in the past that while I don't agree with all of Calvinism, I do feel it was systematically derived from the Bible, meaning it is Biblical in that sense.

There are many here who are confusing Calvinism with hyper-Calvinism and that's unfortunate. :gah

So, I prayerfully hope you didn't get any negative vibes from me. There is much merit to Reformed theology. Much of what I believe about salvation and eschatology is somewhat from reformed theology.

Vic,
Thank you—I appreciate what you say. It's good to see it written out—I feel left-a-hangin'-all-alone sometimes. No negative vibes from you chum, thanks!

 

[jasoncran]

i never heard that the calvanists werent a christian faith. just in err. according to some that disagree with that line of thinking.

 

[watchman F]

Louis, I appreciate your response to my question, and I hate to bother you again, but you said that Calvinist do not think God sends people to Hell. My question would then be (although I do not think God sends people to Hell either). Are there some people that God has decided not to ''elect'' therefore they have no opportunity for salvation therefore no option but Hell?

 

[Dude named Louis]

Louis, I appreciate your response to my question, and I hate to bother you again, but you said that Calvinist do not think God sends people to Hell. My question would then be (although I do not think God sends people to Hell either). Are there some people that God has decided not to ''elect'' therefore they have no opportunity for salvation therefore no option but Hell?

Watchman F, thanks for being so courteous—I know you are really trying to understand the Calvanist position. Again, I may not be the best representative because as I've stated, though I am rooted in Reformed theology, I am somewhat of a hybrid in some areas.

Let me answer your question this way—do we all deserve hell/separation from God based on our sin and turning away from him? If we all deserve that and God chooses to elect a portion by His grace, he hasn't taken away anything from those who are deserving to remain out of fellowship with him. So while I can understand the thinking that it is unfair, that some would have no chance, really each one's sin (by nature through the fall and by choice) has delivered that person to their end.

Again, this is a way of understanding and interpreting what is meant by verses such as 2 Thes. 2:13— "But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth". I think this verse clearly teaches both concepts—election and choice.

If I were to get to heaven and find out that I was wrong about election, it wouldn't shock me. It just seems to make sense and fit together. I don't know what else to do with those verses about God calling and the elect. I know some interpret it to mean that the choosing is based on who has chosen God first. I can see how that conclusion is come to, it's not unreasonable. I really think that we are trying to understand a concept that may involve spiritual truths that are beyond our comprehension.

So, your question: Are there some people that God has decided not to ''elect'' therefore they have no opportunity for salvation therefore no option but Hell?

I guess I have to say yes. But is God really taking anything away from them or merely allowing them to remain in the state that they have determined for themselves?

 

[watchman F]

[quote="watchman F":25t3xs6p]Louis, I appreciate your response to my question, and I hate to bother you again, but you said that Calvinist do not think God sends people to Hell. My question would then be (although I do not think God sends people to Hell either). Are there some people that God has decided not to ''elect'' therefore they have no opportunity for salvation therefore no option but Hell?

So, your question: Are there some people that God has decided not to ''elect'' therefore they have no opportunity for salvation therefore no option but Hell?

I guess I have to say yes. But is God really taking anything away from them or merely allowing them to remain in the state that they have determined for themselves?[/quote:25t3xs6p]This iswere I have to part ways with Calvinist. Jesus died for all men, and gives all men opportunity to choose salvation the sad fact is that most will reject Him. Not however because Christ did not pay the price for them to be reconciled, but because of the hardness of their hearts.

 

[Dude named Louis]

[quote="Dude named Louis":1uqbo277][quote="watchman F":1uqbo277]This iswere I have to part ways with Calvinist. Jesus died for all men, and gives all men opportunity to choose salvation the sad fact is that most will reject Him. Not however because Christ did not pay the price for them to be reconciled, but because of the hardness of their hearts.

[/quote:1uqbo277][/quote:1uqbo277]
I'm in agreement with all those points. Jesus died and his atonement is sufficient for all men. Yet it will only be efficient for those who receive him.

 

[tomo]

hi everyone,

I'm new to this forum,
I'm christian only by school and identity
haven't baptized yet,
read bible because curious and not page by page
I don't think it's because the Holy Spirit ..

so please enlighten me with patience ..

I just wonder, is God unlimited to
time and space dimension ?

if the answer yes, then how come
the ephesians 1:4 was assumed that, the period -
"the election He did before the earth made" just stop there ?
that's it - as if that He work in time dimension ?

Isn't many says, that God still works on us continuously ?

I do believe that God foreknown everything,
but I also would like to believe that God didn't made us -
some to be saved and some to be damned,
and because He foreknown everything - of course
He can say that He choose/elect from the beginning.

As we are made by His image ,
wouldn't it be possible that we are created
with the ability to choose also ?

and as my thinking that He still works until now on us,
so He might made bad people and good people
(either bodily or spiritually) in Romans 9:22

has tolerated with much patience the vessels of His anger

why He had to tolerate with much patience ?
here, I like to assume the quote means
that He still give time and let that "bad people" to repent
until when end of day, he put damned on those who don't,
and the one who does become part of

the vessels of His mercy

So it becomes worth and meaningful the words like :
- God loves us, merciful, patience
- repent , seek, knock, he who ...
- and lead us not into temptation ...

for me, if I'm thinking literally that
He elected/chosen us from the beginning
then I feel everything was just
like a finished & closed scenario,
all are just God's show-off games,
there's no real & meaningful love in there,
because people are pre-programmed made,
or are these the truth ?

any reply would be greatly appreciated,
thank you in advanced.

 

[watchman F]

[quote="watchman F":37xq9tir]This is were I have to part ways with Calvinist. Jesus died for all men, and gives all men opportunity to choose salvation the sad fact is that most will reject Him. Not however because Christ did not pay the price for them to be reconciled, but because of the hardness of their hearts.

I'm in agreement with all those points. Jesus died and his atonement is sufficient for all men. Yet it will only be efficient for those who receive him.[/quote:37xq9tir]Well, Louis that is an Arminan view frowned upon by most ''Calvinist''

 

[watchman F]

Tomo, God does indeed live outside of time and space, and when it talks about God doing this or that before the foundations of the world, it is also talking about before God created space or time. so it was before the very existence of space or time.


God did foreknow who would receive Him, and who would reject Him, but He did not create anyone to be damned, but wills that we all be saved. When the Bible talks about the election. It says God elected US ''plural''. God did not elect individuals and not elect others individual, He elected a people who would serve Him, and all who receive His grace, and forgiveness can be a part of that body of people ''The Church''.


I think the rest of your answers can be answered in the two above. If you need any clarification let me know.

 

[Dude named Louis]

[quote="Dude named Louis":1ld294zq][quote="watchman F":1ld294zq]This is were I have to part ways with Calvinist. Jesus died for all men, and gives all men opportunity to choose salvation the sad fact is that most will reject Him. Not however because Christ did not pay the price for them to be reconciled, but because of the hardness of their hearts.

I'm in agreement with all those points. Jesus died and his atonement is sufficient for all men. Yet it will only be efficient for those who receive him.[/quote:1ld294zq]Well, Louis that is an Arminan view frowned upon by most ''Calvinist''[/quote:1ld294zq]

It's a nuance—Jesus' work on the cross is sufficient for any who would choose to receive Him. It is only applied to those who respond to the call. That part is not inconsistent with Calvanism. If it is, I haven't heard it. Jesus died to take away the sins of the world—it only becomes effective to those who accept. Where we would go back and disagree again is that Calvanism, or Covenant or Reformed theology would hold that no one would choose of their own desire—that God initiates a modicum of regeneration to enable one to believe.

I think people think it's unfair that God would choose some and not others, but He choose the nation of Israel to be His people—we don't seem to have an issue with that.

 

[watchman F]

It's a nuance—Jesus' work on the cross is sufficient for any who would choose to receive Him. It is only applied to those who respond to the call. That part is not inconsistent with Calvanism. If it is, I haven't heard it. Jesus died to take away the sins of the world—it only becomes effective to those who accept. Where we would go back and disagree again is that Calvanism, or Covenant or Reformed theology would hold that no one would choose of their own desire—that God initiates a modicum of regeneration to enable one to believe.

I think people think it's unfair that God would choose some and not others, but He choose the nation of Israel to be His people—we don't seem to have an issue with that.

Also Calvinism teaches that Jesus died only for the elect, and not for all. ''limited atonement''

 

[Dude named Louis]

[quote="Dude named Louis":orsgp71v]It's a nuance—Jesus' work on the cross is sufficient for any who would choose to receive Him. It is only applied to those who respond to the call. That part is not inconsistent with Calvanism. If it is, I haven't heard it. Jesus died to take away the sins of the world—it only becomes effective to those who accept. Where we would go back and disagree again is that Calvanism, or Covenant or Reformed theology would hold that no one would choose of their own desire—that God initiates a modicum of regeneration to enable one to believe.

I think people think it's unfair that God would choose some and not others, but He choose the nation of Israel to be His people—we don't seem to have an issue with that.

Also Calvinism teaches that Jesus died only for the elect, and not for all. ''limited atonement''[/quote:orsgp71v]

Hi, sorry but that's not exactly correct. That's why I believe Vic is right when he says that people confuse Calvanism with Hyper-Calvanism.

The correct understanding of limited atonement is not that Jesus' work on the cross was limited in power or capacity to bring about redemption for all the world, as would be God's desire, but rather the simple truth that it will be effectively limited to those who accept/receive the gift of grace. Some have adopted the phrase "Particular Atonement" which I believe better defines the concept.

 

[watchman F]

[quote="watchman F":2uh3riyo][quote="Dude named Louis":2uh3riyo]It's a nuance—Jesus' work on the cross is sufficient for any who would choose to receive Him. It is only applied to those who respond to the call. That part is not inconsistent with Calvanism. If it is, I haven't heard it. Jesus died to take away the sins of the world—it only becomes effective to those who accept. Where we would go back and disagree again is that Calvanism, or Covenant or Reformed theology would hold that no one would choose of their own desire—that God initiates a modicum of regeneration to enable one to believe.

I think people think it's unfair that God would choose some and not others, but He choose the nation of Israel to be His people—we don't seem to have an issue with that.

Also Calvinism teaches that Jesus died only for the elect, and not for all. ''limited atonement''[/quote:2uh3riyo]

Hi, sorry but that's not exactly correct. That's why I believe Vic is right when he says that people confuse Calvanism with Hyper-Calvanism.

The correct understanding of limited atonement is not that Jesus' work on the cross was limited in power or capacity to bring about redemption for all the world, as would be God's desire, but rather the simple truth that it will be effectively limited to those who accept/receive the gift of grace. Some have adopted the phrase "Particular Atonement" which I believe better defines the concept.[/quote:2uh3riyo]If what you say is true then why did the Calvinistic counsels declare Arminanism heresy. According to you they teach the same thing.

 

[Dude named Louis]

If what you say is true then why did the Calvinistic counsels declare Arminanism heresy. According to you they teach the same thing.

Well, because they don't really believe the SAME thing. People love to argue about stuff, I guess that's the answer. From what I recall (forgive me if I'm a bit off), the followers of Arminius disputed teachings of Calvin and met to discuss and put down in written form their views on the disputed issues (Remonstrance). The Reformers later met at the Synod of Dort and countered the writings of the Remonstrance—this is where the five points of Calvinism came from.

I don't want to sweep under the rug—there are differences, it's just that my perspective is that we view the core truths together. The rest of this stuff is interesting to talk about while having coffee, but at the end of the day we still believe that we are sinners saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[tomo]

Tomo, God does indeed live outside of time and space, and when it talks about God doing this or that before the foundations of the world, it is also talking about before God created space or time. so it was before the very existence of space or time.


God did foreknow who would receive Him, and who would reject Him, but He did not create anyone to be damned, but wills that we all be saved. When the Bible talks about the election. It says God elected US ''plural''. God did not elect individuals and not elect others individual, He elected a people who would serve Him, and all who receive His grace, and forgiveness can be a part of that body of people ''The Church''.


I think the rest of your answers can be answered in the two above. If you need any clarification let me know.

watchman,

thank you very much for your respond.

Now I'm sure that God whom I believe
is that One, the Loving & merciful God.

thanks once again.

 

[Mr. Aaron]

Oh, man, Louis! We've been in error all this time, just like Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons and Darwinists! Mama never told me to beware the Presbyterians! Guess God didn't REALLY mean it when he said "In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ might be for the praise of His glory." Hmmm. Perhaps what God MEANT for Paul to say was "In Him we were also chosen because God could forsee our faith, having had our faith responded to according to the plan of Him who ignores His OWN will, desperately hoping we will believe because He would never step on OUR free will, in order that we, who sovereignly chose on our own to believe in Christ might be for the praise of our powerful faith." But maybe I'm wrong about it; you know we 'Calvinists' are so very far out on a limb when it comes to understanding scripture.

 

[Mr. Aaron]

You know, Louis, I've been thinking over this whole Calvinist thing. Calvinism being exposed for the extremist cult that it is, we had probably better reconsider some things:

"There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God" (Romans 3:10) It is very likely, brother, that we lost the parenthesis after this where he says "except in our heart of hearts where there is just a little tiny piece of us that is not corrupt, and with this part all MAY seek God, but only some will". I think it was on a vary ancient manuscript, unfound till Qumran.

And in Hebrews 9:27 "Just as man was destined to die once and after that to face judgement, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time not to bear sin but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. " as well as in Hebrews 10:14 "because by one sacrice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." It has suddenly become obvious in these verses that Christ's death only accomplished potential salvation for a nameless potential crowd. Our faith really is the necesarry ingredient we need for this potential atonement to take place. How could I have been so wrong?

In John 6:37, when Jesus says "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away," He clearly didn't imply that men were God's to give; he had to have been referring to people who had first given themselves to God - THEN God had to right to give them. Same way with John 6:44 "No once can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."


And in John 10:27-30, when Jesus says "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one," he can not mean what it sounds like on the surface. He had to have defined 'eternal' as 'until I choose to leave", because it is so clear that man's free will means that no one is God's to give unless we give Him that right by our faith.

Boy, I feel so free now that I have escaped the evils of the Calvinist cult and have returned to the true God. And my faith feels so much firmer now!

 

[Mr. Aaron]

Well, I feel guilty. I'm mildly sorry (but only MILDLY) for my sarcasm. At the same time, I won't be silent. The God I believe in is sovereign - even over me, even over my will. My will is only free because He has made me alive. Thank God you need not believe as I do to be saved; I may still call you brothers. And, rest assured, I will never do you the indignity of claiming you worship a different God. "For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in his blood." (Rom. 3:23-25)

 

[Dude named Louis]

Well, I feel guilty. I'm mildly sorry (but only MILDLY) for my sarcasm. At the same time, I won't be silent. The God I believe in is sovereign - even over me, even over my will. My will is only free because He has made me alive. Thank God you need not believe as I do to be saved; I may still call you brothers. And, rest assured, I will never do you the indignity of claiming you worship a different God. "For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in his blood." (Rom. 3:23-25)

I'm delighted to call you my brother Aaron

 

[Mr. Aaron]

Forever, my friend. By predestination and by choice!