Can Christian faith be substantiated without works?

[GraceBwithU]

Can Christian faith be substantiated without works?

Interesting question. Interesting because it is reversed in true biblical application. This question puts the cart before the horse. What comes first the chicken or the egg? Well my friend if faith is the egg then the egg comes first. Absolutely no work that a Christian does means anything without faith. The Christian will not work properly with out faith. We are saved first, by his grace then we work. Works will not save you nor will works keep you saved.

Rev 2:5
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
KJV

What are the first works…it is the choice to believe and repent.

Works do not substantiate faith, faith substantiates works.

Matt 6:5-6
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
KJV

These hypocrites are working. But lost, lost in their own ego.

It is not because of works that we are saved, but because we are saved that we work. It is the prayer and personal communication with God that holds us close to him. Remember your “first works!â€Â

 

[GraceBwithU]

You really need to humble yourself before your brothers and sisters in Christ and before the Lord Himself. You just fell into the very same self righteous trap as the Pharisees. You probably didn't even realize it. :-?

It seems strange to me that any suggestion that we play some kind of a role in our ultimate justification is often met by this kind of response. Paul does not shy away from such claims. Paul is not embarrassed about making claims about the merit of his apostolic work will count to his benefit on the day of judgement. From Phillipians 2:

14Do everything without complaining or arguing, 15so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe 16as you hold out the word of life - in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing.

Let's be clear to avoid yet further misrepresentation: Paul also qualifies such statements to the effect that it is the Spirit that inspires and energizes such work.

Paul Is speaking of rewards not salvation. He received his salvation first and kept it through his faith not his works.

 

[Drew]

Paul Is speaking of rewards not salvation. He received his salvation first and kept it through his faith not his works.

Hello Grace:

What do you think Paul means the reader to understand when he writes these things in Romans 2:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

The plain reading of these texts seems clear - eternal life is given based on obedience. What explanation do you have as to why we should not take them at "face value"?

 

[GraceBwithU]

Paul Is speaking of rewards not salvation. He received his salvation first and kept it through his faith not his works.

Hello Grace:

What do you think Paul means the reader to understand when he writes these things in Romans 2:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

The plain reading of these texts seems clear - eternal life is given based on obedience. What explanation do you have as to why we should not take them at "face value"?

Here again Paul is speaking of the results of salvation not what saves a person. This is the effect not the cause. Your scriptures are out of context. You would do well to return to this chapter and read it all. The point you are trying to make about works saving or keeps you saved is not referenced in these scriptures or any other scripture. It was the Pharisees that believed their works would save them. I seem to recall that Jesus used the word hypocrite many times when speaking to them. The scriptures I quoted you are red letter scriptures.

I do believe we will be rewarded for our works in some way, but it is not what saves us and it is not what keeps us saved. By grace alone are we saved. Our only part in the act of salvation is accepting his grace, believing and repenting, this is or first works when boasting of your works...you have your reward.

From the very foundation of the world...before the world began, God promised us salvation. It is summarized very plainly in this very well known scripture.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
KJV

The only work mentioned here is our "first work".

I say again...we are not saved because we work, we work because we are saved. Simple. cause and effect.

 

[Drew]

Here again Paul is speaking of the results of salvation not what saves a person.

That is, I suggest, at direct variance with how these texts read. Again, here is 2:7

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I cannot "prove" the conventions of the English language, but if someone says "To those who do X, God will give Y", the logical inference is that Y is given on the basis of X.

Same with 2:13

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous

Normal linguistic conventions, at least in English, will lead the reader to conclude that being declared righteous is based on "obeying the law".

I think you are essentially asking the reader to believe that when Paul writes this:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

.....his real meaning is this:

To those who are saved in a manner that is actually not based on persistence in doing good....he will give eternal life.

I do not think many who have not already "bought into" the standard reformed view on this will find this very credible.

 

[GraceBwithU]

Drew,
Poor Paul, He has been misunderstood probably more than any other writer.

Normal linguistic conventions, at least in English, will lead the reader to conclude that being declared righteous is based on "obeying the law".

Even the atheist can obey the law through his conscious. This does not save him. You are missing Paul’s point completely.

One thing you should do is to throw away your NIV. This version of the bible has been responsible for more misinterpretations than probably any version of the Bible. This version is no where close to a direct translation from original. I use the KJV, but there are others that offer the believer a more direct translation than the NIV. If you have difficulty in understanding the KJV, there are others. But the NIV is not the choice of people that seriously want to understand scripture.

Anyway, if you believe that your works are going to secure you a place in Heaven…you will be caught by surprise at judgment day.

Matt 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
KJV

Again, drew I quote to you the words of Jesus. This is in whom Paul believed.

 

[Drew]

I do not see how you are doing anything different from what many do - they simply screen out Romans 2 and its rather clear statements of a coming of justification by works for Christians. I agree that the NIV is a bit wonky. Here are some relevant texts from Romans 2 as per the NASB:

to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew (U)first and also to the Greek.

13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

These texts mean what they say.

And Jesus also teaches that we will be justified by the works that our lives exhibit:

But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then (He will sit on His glorious throne. "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'

40"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'

41"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the (AO)eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'

44"Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'

45"Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'

46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

And this as well:

18A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is goodâ€â€except God alone. 20You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'

As Jesus goes on to say, we need God's help to do these things - and in a very real sense, any works we exhibit are not our own but the result of the Spirit acting in us.

I think that both Paul and Jesus tell the same story - works are involved in our ultimate justification. Paul means what he says in Romans 2.

 

[golfjack]

Drew, The judgment of nations will happen when Jesus comes back again. It is obvious that the people who survive the tribulation will be judged. The Brethern in this context are Jewish people. The goats will be judged by how they treated the Jews. The Church is already in heaven. This is not to be confused with the Great White Throne judgment. This judgment will take place after the 1000 thousand year of Christ. Have you helped cloth a Jew lately?


Peace, Golfjack

 

[Vic C.]

Good grief Drew, you found some more people to argue with, I see. :-D

Golfjack brings up an excellent point which I overlooked; Romans 2 could be referring to the sheep and goats (wheat and tares) judgment, which is based on their good and bad deeds (works). Though, the context still leads me to believe this is the final judgment. It's a null point for us who know the saved elect, based on the atoning blood of the Lamb of God, will not be subjected to a judgment which determines our eternal "fate".

That was done by the work on the Cross, for all those who put their faith and trust in The Son of God. Gifts are not paid for twice, nor do they require payment on interest accumulated. Nor are there fines, surcharges or levies imposed on gifts.

The gift is paid for and no amount of good deed can earn it or be satisfactory enough for God, who sent His Son as a ransom for our evil ways.

Please stop teaching faith plus works for those in the ekklesia. :-?

I am confused as to why you would argue with the Calvinists, who read Romans 9 in a literalistic manner and interpret it as such. You now read Romans 2 in the very same fashion as they did in Romans 9, but this time, you are right. Preconceived beliefs, I guess. :-?

I will say I believe you are spot on with your understanding of Romans 9, but not with Romans 2.

 

[GraceBwithU]

What does any of this have to do with what I have said. I have never said that a person sould not work in his name once saved. I have only said this is not what saves you and is not what keeps you saved. Works are the results of salvation not salvation. You will work. But that is not what saves you. The thief on the cross had no time to work...He simply believed in Jesus.

The young Christian that has not yet worked in anyway will receive the eternal life that is promised before the world began. Your works build your treasures in Heaven...they do not save you.

You seem to be depending on your carnal actions to save your soul. are you saying you do not need to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved but to only obey the law of Moses? That is NOT what Paul is saying. That is what the Pharisees taught.

 

[Drew]

Though, the context still leads me to believe this is the final judgment. It's a null point for us who know the saved elect, based on the atoning blood of the Lamb of God, will not be subjected to a judgment which determines our eternal "fate".

I am curious how you "know" this. In order for your position to be correct you have to have a Paul who is a most confused writer. I posted some questions in this respect in other thread. Can you please answer them? Here they are again:

1. In Romans 2, Paul writes this:

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

You have said that the church will not be judged at this judgement. Given this belief, do you agree that this requires you to believe that Paul intends us to understand that precisely zero persons will be given eternal life as a result of their persistence in doing good? Please answer "yes" or "no", but of course add any explanatory material that you wish.

2. In Romans 2, Paul writes:

There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile

Given your belief that no Christians will be judged at the Romans 2 judgement, do you agree that this requires you to believe that Paul intends us to understand that precisely zero persons will receive glory and honour and peace at the Romans 2 judgement? Please answer "yes" or "no", but of course add any explanatory material that you wish.

3. In Romans 2,Paul writes:

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Given your belief that no Christians will be judged at the Romans 2 judgement, do you agree that this requires you to believe that Paul intends us to understand that, at the Romans 2 judgement, precisely zero persons will be declared righteous in virtue of their obeying the law? Please answer "yes" or "no", but of course add any explanatory material that you wish.

 

[GraceBwithU]

Drew, just on other comment. Your quote in Luke was incomplete.

Luke 18:18-22
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
KJV

Please note that by obeying these commandments the man still lacked one thing. By following Jesus he would be believing in Jesus. In other words the mans works alone would not save him.

 

[Drew]

You seem to be depending on your carnal actions to save your soul. are you saying you do not need to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved but to only obey the law of Moses? That is NOT what Paul is saying. That is what the Pharisees taught.

I am only ageeing with these statements of Paul:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous

But you do raise a valid question that I have addressed at length in other threads that you may not have read.

I also believe that Paul teaches justification by faith in the following sense: when a person does nothing more than genuinely place his faith in Jesus in the present, the Spirit is given, the "law" and the law is written on their hearts so that they can indeed lead a life that will guarantee their justification at the Romans 2 judgement.

This is made clear by the covenant renewal passage from Deuteronomy 30, quoted by Paul in Romans 10:6 where, and I do not understand why people do not (will not?) see this, he is clearly explaining the very nature of the righteousness of the renewed covenant:

But the righteousness that is by faith says....and he goes on to quote from Deuteronomy 30.

Here is the Deuteronomy 30 text:

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

Do you not think that Paul intends us to understand that the covenant renewal - with its clear implcation that we can indeed follow the 'law' - has come true in Jesus for all believers? Why would he quote this passage? And perhaps more pointedly why would he introduce his allusion to the Deuteronomy passage with this:

Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." 6But the righteousness that is by faith says:..... and then he quotes from Deuteronomy 30

To me, this cannot be more clear - the Deueronomy passage, clearly a covenant renewal passage - is the mechanism that ensures that a favourable verdict is procured for the believer at future works-based justification we have described in Romans 2.

I will continue to make the argument that "you guys" do not give Paul enough credit for being a clear and thoughtful writer. You variously have Paul:

1. repeatedly describing a path to justification that no one will take (Romans 2)

2. making a specific reference to an "ability to keep the law" (as per Deuteronomy 30 as referenced in Romans 10), and not seeing how this is the key that resolves the mystery as to how indeed people can be given eternal life by persistence in doing good (as per Romans 2)

And as to what the "law" that we need to keep actually consists in, I will say it is not Torah, but rather this:

Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments

 

[Drew]

Please note that by obeying these commandments the man still lacked one thing. By following Jesus he would be believing in Jesus. In other words the mans works alone would not save him.

How, and please be specific, do you know that Jesus meant "follow me as in 'believe in me'" and not "follow me as in 'obey me' "?

 

[GraceBwithU]

Please note that by obeying these commandments the man still lacked one thing. By following Jesus he would be believing in Jesus. In other words the mans works alone would not save him.

How, and please be specific, do you know that Jesus meant "follow me as in 'believe in me'" and not "follow me as in 'obey me' "?

Why would someone seell all they had for some one they did not believe in. The belief would have to come before the obeying.

 

[Drew]

Please note that by obeying these commandments the man still lacked one thing. By following Jesus he would be believing in Jesus. In other words the mans works alone would not save him.

How, and please be specific, do you know that Jesus meant "follow me as in 'believe in me'" and not "follow me as in 'obey me' "?

Why would someone seell all they had for some one they did not believe in. The belief would have to come before the obeying.

True, but that does not mean that when Jesus says "follow me", he is only demanding belief - He might also be demanding obedience.

Obviously belief precedes obedience, but this temporal ordering does not rule out the possibility that Jesus is saying that "good works" are needed in order to get eternal life.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Many protestants quote from Romans where it says you are saved by faith.
We Catholics love to quote James, who says you are justified by works.

I believe Paul strikes the correct balance in Galatians 5:6:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love."

It is a working faith that saves. Free will is important here. Yes, we are saved by Grace Alone, and God gives us the grace to do good works. But we must actually DO them, and that is an act of our will. These are not works of the Law (Law = Torah) but works of Christ's New Law of Love. But they are works none the less.

 

[biblecatholic]

Many protestants quote from Romans where it says you are saved by faith.
We Catholics love to quote James, who says you are justified by works.

I believe Paul strikes the correct balance in Galatians 5:6:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love."

It is a working faith that saves. Free will is important here. Yes, we are saved by Grace Alone, and God gives us the grace to do good works. But we must actually DO them, and that is an act of our will. These are not works of the Law (Law = Torah) but works of Christ's New Law of Love. But they are works none the less.

Crusader, I think you hit the nail on the head. That is a perfect definition you gave!

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Crusader, I think you hit the nail on the head. That is a perfect definition you gave!

Thanks. I get in a good one every now and then