Can Christian love can speak justly out for the unborn

[allhart]

What I can't speak out in Love for babies against {those who support abortion}. On the account of love. Who speaks out on about abortion in other post as to keep the family size plan in check and then come's to another topic with winsomely advice to others on names for babies, that people are having,therefore; {they} speak piously and gets their cake an ice cream and advising others on baby names. In my heart I love {those who support abortion} ,but I am angry with {their} Ideals. I have no enemy's ,other than an angry disposition towards manipulating wolves in sheep skin leading people a stray. Which I will speak out against their views , but will leave for God to avenge there blood. These people are vultures praying on the innocent and weak minded people. Giving advice with no sympathy or understanding on the creation of life , but to capitalize on there own self interests. What ,it's o.k. to undermine conception of a life. Rationalize their existence or even go as far as to kill a baby's. To have your right's satisfied In sex and I am not a loving Christian to whom, {them} or the baby!!!! Am I Not loving all people Justly.
Not everyone has the the right to something or the right to kill. Don't you think? Who gave them the authority any how. It wasn't there right to take that life.


*edited by moderator

 

[LostSoul]

Allahart the issue in the Baby names thread was not your views. It was the fact that the subject was Baby Names and that continuously you and others were drifting from it. That was all.

I share your anger....believe it or not when it comes to abortion and the very idea of promoting it. It disgusts me when people do it. Angers me too to no end. I just perhaps do not share it in the same exact manner you do. Though I do believe very much we feel the same way. Abortion in itself is wrong and should never be encouraged. So believe me when I say when people suggest certain things in a thread asking about Baby names that I can easily get offended. In fact...I did, when certain names were offered up for suggestion that I felt hit a little too close to that same issue.

I admire your passion and determination to share word against abortion. Really I do and will be praying for your efforts. Just try to remember that harsh words stir up anger. Gentle ones turn it away. So when sharing on this matter, speak from the very heart and will of God.

 

[stovebolts]

Amen,

Proverbs 30:33 Surely the churning of milk bringeth forth butter, and the wringing of the nose bringeth forth blood: so the forcing of wrath bringeth forth strife.

 

[allhart]

Jesus got angry. Towards the ones camping out in God's house. In his words as a den of thieves. I have compassion for the unborn. As others may view my passion for his contempt wrong. Jesus didn't come to unite ,but to divide us. Jesus wasn't crucified on the account that he was passive. Quit the contrary he was a revolutionist. He spoke out against the pharisees called them hypocrites. Read the seven woes in Matthew 23 : 1-39 We as Christians need to have standard that are high. People should be afraid of the Church as to how holy we are. I am fearful of God to how holy he is and I am not or will ever be.

 

[SecretRiches]

I completely understand where you guys are coming from and there is a part of me that totally agrees with pro-life.
I just find it very hard to rule out abortion in all cases.

When you have a 14 year old girl show up at the pharmacy with a prescription for post-abortion medications...and you find out it's been the cause of her father raping her...I have a hard time placing blame on that young girl. When you are counselling her on her "new" medications and she breaks down in loud, deep sobs and nearly colapses in your arms from the psychological pain...how can I judge her?
Her life has been completely changed against her will. I cannot judge her, I simply cannot. That is not the work of God, but the work of evil. Her life has already been traumatized for the REST of her life...
How can we also expect her to live with a daily reminder of what her father did to her? How can we accept that her life has completely changed course, and will NEVER go back, and we expect her to take on MORE?
Will God judge her for her decision? I do not know. But I'd be very disappointed if He did.

What about plan-b? What about oral contraceptives? What about cloned embryotic stem cells?

I've been asked,
What's the difference between scraping off a fertilized egg within the first 6 weeks vs. Plan B which simply doesn't allow a fertlized egg to implant? Or even oral contraceptive. The end result is the same.

I do not know the answer.

Where do we draw the line? Who decides where that line is drawn?

The problem I have with abortion is that it isn't always done in the way it's supposed to be.
I've heard of stories of doctors performing aborptions on 5 month old babies. At this point...it is WAY too late!!! They end up in garbage bins, half burned, still half alive and making aweful sounds.
I've known nurses who had to quit their jobs in aborption clinics because of this.

I take a stance that most people would disagree with. I am in a career where I cannot judge. I cannot let my personal views or beliefs stop me from serving a patient who is only exercising the right the country has given them. It doesn't matter if I do not agree. It doesn't matter if I wouldn't do the same thing. God gave us the right to chose, and if someone exercises that right, then I am not in a place to judge them. I have been given the right to make mistakes, so what makes her any different? It's simply not my job, not in my career and not in my Christian walk.

That's up to God. I am not God, so it's not my job.
I would rather look at myself and try to figure out where I can improve as a Christian rather than judge the works of others. Because at the end of the day, we are all sinners.
No one sin is bigger than another...sin is sin is sin.
I am a sinner...and I make mistakes all the time. That's what I need to focus on. Not the mistakes of other people.

I also want to represent God, Christ, and Christianity in general, in a positive way.
Cause and Effect.
If we apply pressure or force, they will resist.
If we try to force our beliefs on others because of how it angers us, then they will fight back 10 times harder to resist you.

So what is our job? To push people away from Christianity by judging them and hating them, or by accepting them, faults and all.

As I recall, Jesus spent much time being mad with the religious rather than the non-religious. He hung out with the sinners...he helped them.

Just because we do not agree with the decisions of others doesn't mean we cannot respect their decisions.
That's between THEM and God....not Them and us.

 

[allhart]

I completely understand where you guys are coming from and there is a part of me that totally agrees with pro-life.
I just find it very hard to rule out abortion in all cases.

When you have a 14 year old girl show up at the pharmacy with a prescription for post-abortion medications...and you find out it's been the cause of her father raping her...I have a hard time placing blame on that young girl. When you are counselling her on her "new" medications and she breaks down in loud, deep sobs and nearly colapses in your arms from the psychological pain...how can I judge her?
Her life has been completely changed against her will. I cannot judge her, I simply cannot. That is not the work of God, but the work of evil. Her life has already been traumatized for the REST of her life...
How can we also expect her to live with a daily reminder of what her father did to her? How can we accept that her life has completely changed course, and will NEVER go back, and we expect her to take on MORE?
Will God judge her for her decision? I do not know. But I'd be very disappointed if He did.

What about plan-b? What about oral contraceptives? What about cloned embryotic stem cells?

I've been asked,
What's the difference between scraping off a fertilized egg within the first 6 weeks vs. Plan B which simply doesn't allow a fertlized egg to implant? Or even oral contraceptive. The end result is the same.

I do not know the answer.

Where do we draw the line? Who decides where that line is drawn?

The problem I have with abortion is that it isn't always done in the way it's supposed to be.
I've heard of stories of doctors performing aborptions on 5 month old babies. At this point...it is WAY too late!!! They end up in garbage bins, half burned, still half alive and making aweful sounds.
I've known nurses who had to quit their jobs in aborption clinics because of this.

I take a stance that most people would disagree with. I am in a career where I cannot judge. I cannot let my personal views or beliefs stop me from serving a patient who is only exercising the right the country has given them. It doesn't matter if I do not agree. It doesn't matter if I wouldn't do the same thing. God gave us the right to chose, and if someone exercises that right, then I am not in a place to judge them. I have been the right to make mistakes, so what makes her any different? It's simply not my job. Not in my career and not in my Christian walk.

That's up to God. I am not God, so it's not my job.
I would rather look at myself and try to figure out where I can improve as a Christian rather than judge the works of others. Because at the end of the day, we are all sinners.
No one sin is bigger than another...sin is sin is sin.
I am a sinner...and I make mistakes all the time. That's what I need to focus on. Not the mistakes of other people.

I also want to represent God, Christ, and Christianity in general, in a positive way.
Cause and Effect.
If we apply pressure or force, they will resist.
If we try to force our beliefs on others because of how it angers us, then they will fight back 10 times harder to resist you.

So what is our job? To push people away from Christianity by judging them and hating them, or by accepting them, faults and all.

As I recall, Jesus spent much time being mad with the religious rather than the non-religious. He hung out with the sinners...he helped them.

Just because we do not agree with their decision doesn't mean we cannot respect their decision.

You are rationalizing sin in the reality of right and wrong. :o Two wrongs don't make it right. Lauren my nephew was conceived under this predisposition (rape) ,but my sister couldn't bring herself out of conscience to abort the child even under great mental anguish. Lauren is a blessing from God as is every child given to us to look over is. To watch out for, look over For God I might add! We don't own them. We love Lauren. The reality of each issues needs to be addressed appropriately. In that is it right to kill the innocent? Under any rational predisposition? I say No! as did my sister. You as an individual may need to see that as a sin received or achieved there isn't any action going to stop the repercussion of that action. You may have no control ,but in only how you react.

 

[Gabe]

Abortion is either murder or its not murder. As a Christian, i do not see any middle-ground: abortion is murder, therefore it is a sin and I would be disappointed if God did not punish people for it. People who commit these murders do not repent their sins, they do not even acknowledge it as such. When you consider abortion to be murder, then how can we excuse a young girl of murdering her child? Why should that child have to pay for its fathers sins? A child is a child, whether its still in its mothers belly or not. When a mother murders her new-born child, she is a baby killer, what's the difference when that child is still inside her? I've been through abuse as a child, but that does not give me the right to kill anyone who reminds me of it or justify a teenager having an abortion, even if it is a daily reminder of what her father did.

Their are millions of people in the world who are products of rape; They have as much of a right to live as the rest of us do. Where would they be if their mothers had decided to abort them? probably flushed down a toilet.

It is not our job to judge or hate people, but it is our duty to call sin a sin and to hate sin. Jesus hung out with sinners and helped them but He did NOT help them to sin or if they chose to sin regardless, He did not respect their choice, He hated it.

 

[SecretRiches]

I am not justifying wrong with wrong.
I am saying, I am in no place to judge these people for their decisions.
I am in no position to know say wrong is wrong when I only know a slight fraction of what's going on.
Some people are stronger than others, some people believe in abortion and some do not. Some people are not Christians...
I just think it's ignorant to expect everyone to do what we do and believe what we believe.
I didn't become a Christian because someone was pointing out my sin. I became a Christian because another Christian showed me love, compassion, and respect regardless of my sin.....a side of Chrsitianity I had NEVER seen before. I think there is something to be said for that.
Everyone is different and everyone will react to things differently. Pointing out their sin may work in some cases, but in others it will just push them away.

How about we point at our own sin? We are not responsible for another persons decision. But we are responsible for our own.

My job isn't to judge others. Or call them out on their sin. It's to love them regardless of if I agree or not.
The judging part is up to God.

That's just my opinion.

 

[stovebolts]

When you have a 14 year old girl show up at the pharmacy with a prescription for post-abortion medications...and you find out it's been the cause of her father raping her...I have a hard time placing blame on that young girl. When you are counselling her on her "new" medications and she breaks down in loud, deep sobs and nearly colapses in your arms from the psychological pain...how can I judge her?
Her life has been completely changed against her will. I cannot judge her, I simply cannot. That is not the work of God, but the work of evil. Her life has already been traumatized for the REST of her life...
How can we also expect her to live with a daily reminder of what her father did to her? How can we accept that her life has completely changed course, and will NEVER go back, and we expect her to take on MORE?
Will God judge her for her decision? I do not know. But I'd be very disappointed if He did.

I think your right on the mark here, and were not to judge her.

I think a part that we all need to keep in mind here is that most people try to make the best decisions that they know how. I want to keep to this particular subject, because I think it's a reality, and one we shouldn't overlook.

It's easy to look in at somebodies life, but it's a whole other perspective when it's your life. From the outside it's easy to cast stones, but I think we need to really know what were casting stones at, and that's where I think we really need to be centered on Christ.

There's a saying within Christianity that I don't think many people pay much attention to. We say, hate the sin, love the sinner, but often, our hatred for sin is taken out on the sinner. God knows our hearts, and he knows the heart of a confused, angry and terrified young woman who has gone through abuse after abuse. We can view this young girl and say, "How terrible that you aborted your child" and although aborting a child is a travesty, we must consider the travesty the young girl has been subjected to and show mercy and grace to her understanding her pain. If we say to a young woman, "How terrible that you aborted your child", what she may be hearing is, "See, your no good, you can't get it right and everything I do is wrong" This is not the message we would want to send to a young woman in a time of great distress.

What is it to be like Christ? I believe that a big part of it, is seeing through the clutter and having mercy where we can show mercy. Jesus even said to those who put the nails in his hands and feet, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." We all know that abortion is wrong, but there is a time to forgive somebody for a wrong, for they may not fully know what they are doing, or considering their life, they are doing what they believe is the best possible choice, when none of the choices are good..., so she makes the best decision she can based on what's surrounding her, and how she views those surroundings. Again, God knows the heart, and he will judge accordingly.

As Christians, we seem to like to focus a lot on forgiveness and how Christ has forgiven us our sins. But as a whole community, we Christians must also learn to forgive each other, and those that have wronged us. You see, I found out a long time ago that it is sin that separates us from Christ, or that which stops us from being Christ Like is also sin. Often, we think that it's our sin that keeps us from being Christ like, but could it be the sin of others against us as well? In the case above, a father (and I'll leave that lowercase thank you) abused his daughter in ways that are against God, and she will live with that tragedy the rest of her life. All the pain, all the hate, all the confusion. None of this is how God created us to live, and how wonderful it would be for her to be released from his sin, by forgiving him, wishing him well, and moving on with her life. This, I believe, is one way that Christ transforms lives... which is why we Christians need to properly discern the sin from the sinner and show mercy where we can show mercy. Throwing rocks is easy, anyone can do that. But it's hard being a servant, because it often requires sacrifice and viewing others in a whole new light... a light that sets them free from all the pain and suffering this life has to offer.

 

[Gabe]

I would just like to clarify that I am NOT saying we should judge others, I know very well that this is up to God and God alone. Of course we need to show compassion, love and support to the women who have decided to have abortions but where is the compassion, love and support for the innocent children who are to be aborted? Being 'Pro-life' and considering abortion to be legalised murder is not solely a Christian stance. I was anti-abortion long before I became a Christian.

I know that I am a sinner and that I should look at my own flaws and not cast stones, but its not quite that simple when the lives of innocent voiceless children hang in the balance. We are all entitled to our own opinions and I apologise if I was full-on with my response but this is something that I feel very strongly about.

Gabriel

 

[SecretRiches]

It's easy to look in at somebodies life, but it's a whole other perspective when it's your life. From the outside it's easy to cast stones, but I think we need to really know what were casting stones at, and that's where I think we really need to be centered on Christ.

There's a saying within Christianity that I don't think many people pay much attention to. We say, hate the sin, love the sinner, but often, our hatred for sin is taken out on the sinner. God knows our hearts, and he knows the heart of a confused, angry and terrified young woman who has gone through abuse after abuse. We can view this young girl and say, "How terrible that you aborted your child" and although aborting a child is a travesty, we must consider the travesty the young girl has been subjected to and show mercy and grace to her understanding her pain. If we say to a young woman, "How terrible that you aborted your child", what she may be hearing is, "See, your no good, you can't get it right and everything I do is wrong" This is not the message we would want to send to a young woman in a time of great distress.

What is it to be like Christ? I believe that a big part of it, is seeing through the clutter and having mercy where we can show mercy. Jesus even said to those who put the nails in his hands and feet, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." We all know that abortion is wrong, but there is a time to forgive somebody for a wrong, for they may not fully know what they are doing, or considering their life, they are doing what they believe is the best possible choice, when none of the choices are good..., so she makes the best decision she can based on what's surrounding her, and how she views those surroundings. Again, God knows the heart, and he will judge accordingly.

As Christians, we seem to like to focus a lot on forgiveness and how Christ has forgiven us our sins. But as a whole community, we Christians must also learn to forgive each other, and those that have wronged us. You see, I found out a long time ago that it is sin that separates us from Christ, or that which stops us from being Christ Like is also sin. Often, we think that it's our sin that keeps us from being Christ like, but could it be the sin of others against us as well? In the case above, a father (and I'll leave that lowercase thank you) abused his daughter in ways that are against God, and she will live with that tragedy the rest of her life. All the pain, all the hate, all the confusion. None of this is how God created us to live, and how wonderful it would be for her to be released from his sin, by forgiving him, wishing him well, and moving on with her life. This, I believe, is one way that Christ transforms lives... which is why we Christians need to properly discern the sin from the sinner and show mercy where we can show mercy. Throwing rocks is easy, anyone can do that. But it's hard being a servant, because it often requires sacrifice and viewing others in a whole new light... a light that sets them free from all the pain and suffering this life has to offer.

I really could not have said it any better myself. It is very easy to look at somebody's life, on the outside, and condemn them for their actions.

"Hate the sin, but love the sinner" is the motto that was introduced to me as a new Christian and it was one that I've now tried to make a lifelong philosophy.

It bothers me when I see Christians hating on a person for their sin. I know they are not trying to be hurtful or mean...but to the other person on the receiving end, it's exactly how they perceive it.
Why do people hate Christians so much? I've asked this question to many of my atheist friends.
The one common theme I hear in response has to do with being judged, being looked at as lower, or less, or being treated like dirt when they do something the Christian world considers "sinful." The expectation to be flawless and perfect and if you fail as you always will, then you are given a cold shoulder.

As a newer Christian myself, I can honestly say this was also the reason I avoided church, and Chrsitianity in general, for a very long time. It wasn't until I saw that it didn't have to be this way, that I stopped avoiding. When it was explained to me that this walk is a "personal" walk between me and God, not between me and other Christians or anybody else.

It's a sad fact, but it's the truth. And I really want to send a different message. There are people out there who desperately need God without the judgement from those who represent him.

So I pray for this young girl, and her situation. And when she returns to me for follow-ups or other medications in the future, I will welcome her with open arms. I will exercise empathy for her situation and for her struggle to regain normalcy. I will take time to answer any questions she may have. I will refer her to the appropriate professionals if required.
And maybe she'll ask me....why are you so nice?
Why do you care so much?

And then I can say...because I'm a Christian.

 

[SecretRiches]

I would just like to clarify that i am NOT saying we should judge others, i know very well that this is up to God and God alone. Of course we need to show compassion, love and support to the women who have decided to have abortions but where is the compassion, love and support for the innocent children who are to be aborted? Being 'Pro-life' and considering abortion to be legalised murder is not soley a Christian stance. I was anti-abortion long before i became a Christian.

I know that i am a sinner and that i should look at my own flaws and not cast stones, but its not quite that simple when the lives of innocent voiceless children hang in the balance. We are all entitled to our own opinions and i apologise if i was full-on with my response but this is something that i feel very strongly about.

Gabriel

I know Gabriel, and I respect your thoughts and opinions. I even admire your strong will and sense of compassion towards these innocent children who have no been given a chance, or a voice, or an opinion.

I guess it's just how we represent our faith to others. We want to help them right? To bring them in, to show them what we know...To introduce them to Christ. Not drive them away.

But I do hear what you are saying.

 

[stovebolts]

SecretRiches,

If you can, teach her forgiveness. Teach her first how to forgive herself because if she doesn't already know it, one day she may realize that she took the life of her own flesh and blood, and I'm certain that if this does not haunt her, it's because she fell into the lie that many believe which says that life does not begin at conception when her spirit tells her differently.

Psalms 139:13-17 For you have formed my inward parts: you have covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise you; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are your works; and that my soul knows right well. My frame was not hid from you, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes did see my substance, being yet unformed; and in your book they were all written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them. How precious also are your thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

Yes, do teach her forgiveness. Teach her how to accept forgiveness from others when she has wronged them. Often, I believe that it's hard to accept the forgiveness that others offer because we haven't found the place in ourselves that allows us to look at ourselves with a different set of eyes.

Then, teach her how to forgive others. That's the toughest part because we find strength and power in our anger, and it's scary to be vulnerable, especially once you've been hurt deeply by somebody you care for.

For a person of good will, and I have no reason to doubt that many people who have abortions are good willed people, let them know that God views all life as precious because if this person is of good will, she has guilt for abnormally terminating her baby regardless if her father is the dad. Down there somewhere guilt is covered by rational of circumstance and I can only imagine the inner turmoil that will plague her for the rest of her life. This, I believe, is why forgiveness is so important. You see, somewhere in there the light may just turn on for her as she begins to see Jesus living through you.

I am pro life, and I believe in protecting the unborn and yes, I can become very zealous over the topic and I won't sugarcoat it. One day, this gal may ask you if what she did was wrong and I pray that when you answer, you can lead her to a place of forgiveness, because in forgiveness, is where the healing begins and Jesus transforms our lives. Help her to seperate the issues and call them what they are. From there, the journey of recovery may begin.

Now then, we have the other extreme and if we can take it as far to the left as possible, lets say that somebody flippantly aborts their child because it was a girl, and they wanted a boy. They have already condemned themselves and chances are, I'd be viewed as a unmovable, harsh or even rude.

 

[allhart]

God is in the business of saving and judging. I say that out of my own experience. If you stand for truth or speak in truth. People in guilty conscience will chose to lash out at you or have a broken spirit in their reaction to their own sin, but we need to look at this outside of each others sin. God's grace is upon all of us for a time and its time to speak candidly. Where the truth isn't always politically correct. God's love isn't a one liner. His love is multifaceted and I speak truth to the effect of a multifaceted love. For all that heed this advice about abortion.Read Acts 28:26-27