Sorry, not sure what you're talking about, please elaborate for the sake of my correction.
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Can it be proved, without a doubt, there's no free will spoken of in the Bible
- Thread starter Grubal Muruch
- Start date
Grubal Muruch
Member
NOPE...
Re: Rebekah...
Not an option? Of course it's an option.Originally Posted by childeye
The first example by Eventide does not take into account the Love of God moving Rebecca. Your example only shows Soloman being told he needs to not abandon God lest God abandon him. As God is Love this is not an option placed before him as you take it to be, but instruction to be heeded.
The Lord may move in someone's heart, but He does not counter-act their will. Rebekah was given a choice to wait a few days or go. She chose to go.
I know someone can be ignorant or be in unbelief or test God, however you want to put it. As I have said we are all subject to knowledge and ignorance of the Truth.
Notice scripture says not to hinder seeing the Lord has prospered my way. But they who hinder the servant of the Master need hear it from Rebekah's mouth.Originally Posted by Gen. 24:55-58
And her brother and her mother said, Let the damsel abide with us a few days, at the least ten; after that she shall go. And he said unto them, Hinder me not, seeing the LORD hath prospered my way; send me away that I may go to my master. And they said, We will call the damsel, and enquire at her mouth. And they called Rebekah, and said unto her, Wilt thou go with this man? And she said, I will go.
God's purposes are often twarted by man. I'll give you a couple of examples.
God's purpose for the lawyers and pharisees was good, but they rejected it.
How do you know God's purposes were thwarted? He sifts and He tears down and he builds up. The above scripture shows who justified God and who did not. The pharisees being left out because of pride and the deception of such ignorance actually rejected themselves. Moreover Jesus points out the contrary reasoning of this generation of men that are in ignorance of pride.Originally Posted by Luke 7:29-32
And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like? They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.
Here we see God's will was thwarted by man's decisions and God's destiny for a man was changed.
Jesus, Himself, could have called in twelve legions of angels had He chosen not to go through with the cross. He was tempted like as we are. In fact, His temptation in the wilderness would have been a farce had Jesus not had the ability to choose. Just something for you to think about.......Originally Posted by 1 Kings 20:42
2And he said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Because thou hast let go out of thy hand a man whom I appointed to utter destruction, therefore thy life shall go for his life, and thy people for his people.
This scripture from 1Kings 20:42 only enforces the fact that men are not free to disobey God and live. When have I ever argued that men don't disobey God? Indeed I struggle against regarding it freedom. Therefore I appreciate greatly the scriptures concerning Jesus and his ability to obey God as a trustworthy servant obeys with his life and death. For he was without sin, (seperation from God). Hence he says God and I are one. Even Moses and Elijah came to strengthen him in his going forward with that which was against his own will, as in not my will but Your will be done. Such faith required to accomplish this seems uncommon to me.
I'm very saddened therefore to say, that we have a breakdown in discourse over terms. I don't discount we have a "will", the ability to choose. I'm saying such "will" is not free but subject to antecedent events such as God and temptation to deny God and this is about faith. Whereas you call such a predicament freedom of choice. By such reasoning Freewill would cease to exist when the temptor is taken away. Hence you point out that man can thwart God's will. I do not agree for if God seeks to sift the elements and make known that his enemies are his footstool, then all is happening according to His designs. My answer to such claims that men deny God freely, will continue to ask, why would man want to disobey God? To answer because he freely can, is not addressing my question Glorydaz.
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Sorry, not sure what you mean. Please elaborate for the sake of my correction.
Are you upset with me Grubal?
Grubal Muruch
Member
Nah... I just think your mixed up some, but at least you seem to be searching, and that's a good thing...
smaller
Member
It is quite easy to see that TWO WILLS are operational in MAN from Paul.
Paul gave us an exact picture of these two wills right here and applied the fact to himself:
Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Paul had A WILL and the EVIL PRESENT with Paul had an OPPOSING WILL.
Paul defined the sin indwelling him in Romans 7 as NOT him.
enjoy if you can see it.
smaller
Paul gave us an exact picture of these two wills right here and applied the fact to himself:
Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Paul had A WILL and the EVIL PRESENT with Paul had an OPPOSING WILL.
Paul defined the sin indwelling him in Romans 7 as NOT him.
enjoy if you can see it.
smaller
First, Paul is speaking as a carnal man in Romans 7. And, we don't see two wills present here. We see one will, but "how to perform that" he is unable to find. Paul goes on to say how we can perform that which is good through Christ.
The "evil present with me" is the sins of the flesh that war in his members. "In my flesh dwelleth no good thing."
Romans 7 said:
Thanks Grubal, I'm glad you're not mad.
There is not so much as a single passage that "speaks" of "free will" - whether that there is or there isn't. The various theological views on "free will" are merely interpretations of various passages of scripture.
But what do we mean by "free will"? Do we mean that humans merely have the capacity to choose one thing over another? (That is, in fact, what most people mean, but that's really nothing more than "will," i.e. having a will is having a capacity to choose one thing over another). Or do we mean that humans have the right to choose?
Having freedom necessarily means having rights. Rights exist naturally and/or are conferred on us by God (and not by government). Further, if we have certain rights then there is no authority that can "rightly" punish us for exercising those rights. Thus, if God gave us the right to choose good or evil, then He is violating that right (that He gave us) if he punishes us for choosing evil.
Thus, while humans have a will (the capacity to choose - or, more accurately, the capacity to choose within the scope of our nature), we don't have "free" will (the right to choose or, more specifically, the right to choose evil).
But what do we mean by "free will"? Do we mean that humans merely have the capacity to choose one thing over another? (That is, in fact, what most people mean, but that's really nothing more than "will," i.e. having a will is having a capacity to choose one thing over another). Or do we mean that humans have the right to choose?
Having freedom necessarily means having rights. Rights exist naturally and/or are conferred on us by God (and not by government). Further, if we have certain rights then there is no authority that can "rightly" punish us for exercising those rights. Thus, if God gave us the right to choose good or evil, then He is violating that right (that He gave us) if he punishes us for choosing evil.
Thus, while humans have a will (the capacity to choose - or, more accurately, the capacity to choose within the scope of our nature), we don't have "free" will (the right to choose or, more specifically, the right to choose evil).
That sounds pretty good, but........He doesn't punish us for choosing evil, He punishes us for doing evil.
Actually, He punishes us for not believing in Jesus Christ.
Actually, He only rewards those who choose life.
Now see how confused you've gotten me? It must be late. ;)
Choosing it is doing it in the mind just like looking at a woman to lust after her is committing adultery with her.
You are quick...I didn't even finish editing before you got back.
So if God sets before us Life and Death, and tells us to choose Life, would God be wrong?
Your question has nothing to do with whether the "will" (the capacity to choose) is "free" or, more to the point of this thread, whether it can be proved, without a doubt, that there's no free will spoken of in the Bible.
Is the bantering i see friendly or rude?
O good grief.... I will remove my post That banterig was this morning....This ol gal is too tired tonite
Sorry guysYour all back to normal except for my apology .... Good nite
I'm in the same boat, Reba. I'm off to bed, too. Have a good sleep.
Grubal Muruch
Member
???? Very vague, be a little more "specific" with your stance...
How much more specific do you need me to be?
Grubal Muruch
Member
The kind of "free-will" the thread is talking about is, can anyone out there, provide proof from the Scriptures, that man has no "free-will" to choose what he will believe in...My stance is, that God created within ALL of humanity the ability to choose (by reason of his free-will) what he will put his trust in. Some put their faith in philosophy, religion, science, etc. God, through Christ has offered us mercy and forgiveness of our sins and promised, eternal life. However, we must place our faith in His Son as Savior and Lord...Is this the kind of faith you are referring to??
Grubal Muruch
Member
Put what you said in your other post, into fewer words...