Can woman teach man in the church?

[Anna1334]

Can Women teach Men in church

1 Tim. 2:11-14 states, "let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in transgression."

Many do not understand what the focus of this passage is about. It is about the mystery cults. All the mystery cults like those surrounding the goddesses Diana, Artimus, Isis, etc. were woman centered (matriarchal). Only women were allowed any positions of authority in these cults. Like the oracle of Delphi could only be a woman.

A common teaching was that women were superior because they are the one's who gave birth to humanity. Many of these cults relished in the teaching about Eve being the mother of mankind. They had a belief that women had superior knowledge over men, a secret knowlege given to women that men could never understand or attain. The only way a man could have any position or power in any of these mystery cult temples was if he was a eunuch.

Paul's statements about Adam being first, not Eve, and how it was Eve who was deceived, not Adam, is addressing the teachings of the mystery cults. His saying it was Eve who was deceived strikes at the mystery cult belief of women having the superior intellect. And his statement of Adam being first goes against those cults belief of Eve being the source of all people. He also tells them to stop teaching and ursuping authority over men in the Church. That is what was done in the mystery cults, the women were the authorities, and they believed they had superior knowlege.

So, there must have been a problem with some women coming into the Christian congregations and trying to wrestle power in like manner as the mystery cults. Paul is addressing a specific problem of certain women trying to institute these mystery cult teachings into Church.

Many people read this scripture and assume it is a precedent for all women for all time, not realizing the specific issue Paul was addressing. Acts 2:17 states, ". . . your sons and your daughters shall prophecy. . . ." In 1 Cor. 11:5 Paul writes that when a woman prophesies she should have her head covered. So, Paul is not saying women cannot speak or teach in church, but rather Paul was addressing a specific issue in his letter to Timothy.

Pricilla and her husband came across a male preacher who was not that well versed. We read how Priscilla, a woman, helped teach Apollos, a man, ". . . the way of the Lord more perfectly" (Acts 18:26). So, it's okay for women to teach men.
I dedicate this one to all who believe we should not teach.
In the O.T. Debra was a Judge and a prophetess. Men did not pick Judges. A Judge was the spiritual head, selected by God, over the people. There were a number of other prophetesses listed in scripture also. So, does God bar women from positions of authority?

And Pheobe was a deaconess. Many churches will not allow female deacons even though there was one in the N.T. Many will allow them to teach women and children, but some will not allow them to teach adult males, even though Pricilla did it.

1 Cor. 14:34-35 also addresses an issue for women to keep silent. Was Paul addressing a specific issue like he was in his letter to Timothy? He must be addressing a specific issue since just three chapters back he said women should not prophecy in church unless their heads were covered (1 Cor. 11:5). Even the head covering was a cultural thing of proper atire for married women.

So, no scripture limits the type of ministry a woman may conduct. Those who say it does have misinterpreted passages, not understanding the issue at hand.

 

[Cornelius]

You , like Priscilla , are free to tell people of the gospel.

You are not free as a woman to teach in the church. You can prophecy and pray out loud.That is clear from the Scriptures. You cannot however, get up and teach. I know forums are difficult, because its a "free for all" but strictly speaking the church is gathered here as well and woman cannot teach.
Not all men are suppose to teach either.

Jas 3:1 Be not many of you teachers, my brethren, knowing that we shall receive heavier judgment.

Teaching brings judgment, because we are to speak as the oracles of God. If we add or take away from the Word , it brings a curse. If a woman would be breaking the hierarchy of God when she teaches, and as such will bring a curse upon herself and those who submit to her.

I know its not PC, and not according to modern thinking, but God is not PC (the world is )

Somebody taught that pagan stuff, to try and get past the Scriptures, but it is not mentioned in the Bible. The reasons given in the Bible is not equal to what you are saying.

C

 

[Carol Lowery]

The Spiritual qualifications for overseerers 1 Timothy 3:1-16

This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. [2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; [3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; [4] One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; [5] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) [6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. [8] Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; [9] Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. [10] And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. [11] Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. [12] Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. [13] For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. [14] These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: [15] But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. [16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Titus 1:6-8

If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. [7] For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; [8] But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;

Titus 2:1-5

But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: [2] That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. [3] The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; [4] That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, [5] To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.


Outside of this Truth, I have no opinion........

 

[Anna1334]

I believe in Pauls letters.The passages indicate that Paul said he didn't allow a woman to excercise authority over a man. I see a subtle differance here as this would be a position of leadership.

I do believe that women can be very effective teachers and I do not see any problem with a woman witnessing to a man or sharing her faith.I also believe that women often are better at teaching children and other women. Paul at one point indicated that

Titus2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
2. That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
3. The aged women likewise, that they be in behavior as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4. That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
There are countless of woman who has contributed to forwarding
God’s Word, and were spoken to By God Himself; woman in the Old Testament who has
play important roles as Sarah, God told Abraham to listen to his wife.
Deborah who was a prophetess, and a leader. Judges 4:4-6 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that
time. And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah
and Bethel in mount
Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up
to her for judgment. And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of
Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the Lord God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor,
and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the
children of Zebulun? God is no respecter of persons, and who saw Jesus resurrected
first, don’t mock me when I am preaching good. I believe a woman should never
lash out in the church to say out the pastor is wrong, when he is preaching, but
she can talk to him on the side. I believe a woman is not to be the head but
she does and can have a say about God’s Word. I do not feel bad for speaking
God’s Word but I will never go to a church were a woman is the pastor. When
Paul stated about a woman keeping silent in the church I believe he was referring
to, not rebuke the pastor while he is speaking, or to exercise her authority
over a man. As to say not boss him around, or to be the head of the church. It also said she should cove her
head while in church. Maybe you might think I am wrong but this is the way I
feel, my Gift is to exhort and see everybody grow and go from glory to glory, just
do not stay in the same spot. I also found out from my husband Lee’s life, and my own that
if you give Him all the time you can, He himself will open the doors for you to
go up higher and higher. Blessings in Yeshua Anna

 

[lovely]

Hi Anna,

No, I do not believe that women should be teaching men, or holding positions of authority over men in the local assembly of the body. I think this is scriptural. I do think that prophecy and prayer are alright under headship in this situation, but I would submit to the elders on the matter so that I didn't cause confusion.

I do believe that sharing the Gospel with the lost, testifying of God's working in one's life (testimony), and even sharing opinion's/exhortation/encouragement/prayer on this board do not fall into that same category...but I admit I have been steadily praying that God will show me how to be discerning even in these situations so that I may be truthful and still honor the brotherhood.

You mentioned head covering, and I do believe that a woman's head should be covered in the assembly to bring glory to God, but I do not cover my head all day long. My point for mentioning this, is that I think these commands need to be obeyed in context, not ignored altogether or practiced in an extra biblical sense.

Just my thoughts. The Lord bless you.

 

[Amielou]

just wondering what the bible says and what you all think about women teaching sunday school ??

 

[Caroline H]

I think that if it's a mixed group and there's not a man willing to take the position, then it should be fine for a woman to lead the discussion. Sunday School should be about discussing the Bible, it's not preaching mini sermons before the main service. I don't see where that puts a woman in an authoritative position over a man. Just my opinion

 

[Cornelius]

Hi Anna,

No, I do not believe that women should be teaching men, or holding positions of authority over men in the local assembly of the body. I think this is scriptural. I do think that prophecy and prayer are alright under headship in this situation, but I would submit to the elders on the matter so that I didn't cause confusion.

I do believe that sharing the Gospel with the lost, testifying of God's working in one's life (testimony), and even sharing opinion's/exhortation/encouragement/prayer on this board do not fall into that same category...but I admit I have been steadily praying that God will show me how to be discerning even in these situations so that I may be truthful and still honor the brotherhood.

You mentioned head covering, and I do believe that a woman's head should be covered in the assembly to bring glory to God, but I do not cover my head all day long. My point for mentioning this, is that I think these commands need to be obeyed in context, not ignored altogether or practiced in an extra biblical sense.

Just my thoughts. The Lord bless you.

Amen.
Simple, true and according to Scripture.

blessings
C

 

[GojuBrian]

Hi Anna,

No, I do not believe that women should be teaching men, or holding positions of authority over men in the local assembly of the body. I think this is scriptural. I do think that prophecy and prayer are alright under headship in this situation, but I would submit to the elders on the matter so that I didn't cause confusion.

I do believe that sharing the Gospel with the lost, testifying of God's working in one's life (testimony), and even sharing opinion's/exhortation/encouragement/prayer on this board do not fall into that same category...but I admit I have been steadily praying that God will show me how to be discerning even in these situations so that I may be truthful and still honor the brotherhood.

You mentioned head covering, and I do believe that a woman's head should be covered in the assembly to bring glory to God, but I do not cover my head all day long. My point for mentioning this, is that I think these commands need to be obeyed in context, not ignored altogether or practiced in an extra biblical sense.

Just my thoughts. The Lord bless you.

Another Amen!!

I don't think you have to be a scholar to know or interpret the bible. It's pretty plain and straight forward. It doesn't say one thing, but means another, it means what it says.

There are lots of things in the bible that are hard, lots of things that make us humble ourselves, lots of things that are against our own will, but they are still plain truths. To ignore these things or to try to justify doing things our own way is dangerous imo.

May God bless you!!

 

[Lee100]

The Bible no where stops any woman from preaching the Kingdom of God. Certainly it is totally unbiblical to say that women cannot write in forums and preach the Kingdom of God. Infact, women played a very important role along with men of God in establishing Church and preaching the Kingdom of God.

If we read the story of Deborah in the Book of Judges, Deborah served as judge and prophetess during the Reign of the Judges in the Old Testament (Judges 4). She ministered to the Israelites, both in a secular and spiritual fashion. Her story became quite famous. In short, under inspiration from the Lord, she gave Barak the guidance to free Israel from the oppression of King Jabin and his military commander, Sisera. Barak wasn't the most trusting or faithful of servants and demanded that Deborah accompany him into battle against the king. She did so, and Israel was freed through the actions of another woman.

At resurrection women were witness to resurrection. If women are not allowed to preach or witness, then we do not have proof to the First account of resurrection of Jesus Christ. Or do we have? In fact the angel tells them to go and tell others. Certainly, it was allowed by God, so it is recorded in the Bible as the women witnessed and preached that Jesus is Alive to the disciples.

When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to apostles...Peter however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened. (Luke 24:912)

Following is the list of women, who were preaching;


* DEBORAH - Judges 4:4-5. Deborah was a Judge for both civil and criminal
cases. The children of Israel came to her for judgment. She was the chief ruler
of Israel for 40 years, giving orders to the Generals and all the army. She did
the work of an evangelist, prophetess, Judge, and a preacher. God gave her
authority over the mighty (Judges 5:13).
* MIRIAM - Exodus 15:20; Numbers 12:1; Micah 6:4. She was a Prophetess and a Song Leader in Israel.
* HULDAH - 2 Kings 22:14. Five men went to Sister Huldah and communed with her. She spoke to a congregation of men concerning the book of the Law. A female preached to a man's congregation, and her message was taken to the nation and produced a revival.
* MAHER-SHALAL-HASH-BAZ'S MOTHER - Isaiah 8:3. She was a prophetess.
* Phillip had 4 daughters who prophesied. Acts 21:9.
* Priscilla assisted Paul in his revival meeting and even taught Apollos in the way of the Lord more perfectly.
* Phoebe - Romans 16:1-2. Paul commended Phebe to the Church at Rome and requested that they assist her in her business. She was one of Paul's assistants in the work of the Lord and delivered the Book of Romans to the people from the hand of Paul.



Conclusion
It is clear that God's spirit does guide women and they can preach and prophesy. So anyone who says that women cannot preach must read the Bible. It was witness of these women to this date and till the Second Coming of Jesus, that the words of these women will be remembered as witness and preaching. So where does Bible stop women to preach, and witness the Kingdom of God?



However, Bible does NOT allow women to act as Pastors or Elders of the Church. There is a difference between preaching and witnessing and being a Pastor and an Elder.

According to the Word of God;

"But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression," (1 Timothy 2:12-14)

Paul did not say something new here, he only reminded us about the Genesis where Eve was created as helper to Adam.

Conclusion
Women can preach and prophesy but they cannot be ordained as Pastors or Elders of a Church. As followers of Jesus Christ, we (male/female) must work as servants of God, preaching the Kingdom of God through words and actions.

 

[Carol Lowery]

Amen and Amen..........

 

[Entropic_Prodigy]

Most of the better arguments for egualitarianism in the church were made by Lee100, but I'll throw in some more here.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Sin passes from man, hence the reason Jesus could be born without sin, as he was not born of man. Man is not blameless in the history of things here as most of them would like to think.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

We are all ONE, not separate or caught in the middle of some sort of chromosomal or genetic hierarchy.

I personally don't see a difference between preaching and prophesying in "the church" and being a pastor or elder of it. I guess it depends on what your definition of what "the church" is, and what your definition of a congregation is. The bible says "whenever two or more are gathered in his name". What if the two or more are women? Is no one to be designated as a pastor, mentor, or elder of the group? Can no one guide or lead the group spiritually?

People like to quote the Pastoral Epistles in support of men leading the church, but a good 80% of scholars agree that they were written in the LATE first century (after Paul's death) by those wishing to adapt church teachings to changing times and circumstances. These letters were not written by Paul, and there is almost no one that will argue that they are -- it's near fact.

I really hate to be such a spoil-sport on all of this, but I'm really sick of people assuming that I want to do things like volunteer in the children's ministries or bake cookies for old ladies--two things I definitely DON'T feel any sort of calling to do--and assign me to these things because of some perceived gender-designated duty to take on supportive roles within the church and stay away from so-called men's leadership roles. God tells me to not let anger over petty things consume me or get in the way of my worship and faith to HIM, and to test everything and hold onto the good. Oppression in any form isn't good, and I really can't find in the bible where it would be considered a Christian teaching.

 

[Cornelius]

Most of the better arguments for egualitarianism in the church were made by Lee100, but I'll throw in some more here.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Sin passes from man, hence the reason Jesus could be born without sin, as he was not born of man. Man is not blameless in the history of things here as most of them would like to think.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Unfortunately none of these scriptures speaks for or against the woman's role in the church. The Bible tells us that the "sum of Thy Word is true" (We have to place all scriptures together,to form a doctrine

We are all ONE, not separate or caught in the middle of some sort of chromosomal or genetic hierarchy.

We are one (or are suppose to be one) in what we believe. Like the Father and Jesus is also one in all they do and say.Last time I looked, we were in fact still different in our chromosomes .

I personally don't see a difference between preaching and prophesying in "the church" and being a pastor or elder of it.

Its correct that you personally do not see it, that however do not prevent others from understanding it. You should study the difference between prophecy and preaching. You should also study the difference between the fivefold ministry gifts and who in the Bible got to minister those gifts.

I guess it depends on what your definition of what "the church" is, and what your definition of a congregation is. The bible says "whenever two or more are gathered in his name". What if the two or more are women? Is no one to be designated as a pastor, mentor, or elder of the group? Can no one guide or lead the group spiritually?

No, it does not depend on what our definition of church is, it depends on what the Bible's definition of church is. When we meet in a situation where we worship and then somebody will teach, a woman will not do so.

People like to quote the Pastoral Epistles in support of men leading the church, but a good 80% of scholars agree that they were written in the LATE first century (after Paul's death) by those wishing to adapt church teachings to changing times and circumstances. These letters were not written by Paul, and there is almost no one that will argue that they are -- it's near fact.

This is a Christian forum and I believe that Christians hold the Bible as the Word of God. What you say is not true , because MOST will argue that they were written by Paul.

it's near fact

Like evolution is near fact, but not fact. A near bulls eye is not hitting the target in the center.

I really hate to be such a spoil-sport on all of this, but I'm really sick of people assuming that I want to do things like volunteer in the children's ministries or bake cookies for old ladies--two things I definitely DON'T feel any sort of calling to do--and assign me to these things because of some perceived gender-designated duty to take on supportive roles within the church and stay away from so-called men's leadership roles.

I think, that is something that you must sort out with your fellowship and not throw out a Bible principle, because you do not like baking.

God tells me to not let anger over petty things consume me or get in the way of my worship and faith to HIM, and to test everything and hold onto the good. Oppression in any form isn't good, and I really can't find in the bible where it would be considered a Christian teaching.

Paul does not teach oppression in any place. If you understand it as such, you then need to get the correct understanding about why God has placed this in His Word. Believe me, God wrote this, no matter what you believe. Submission is not so that you can be oppressed. Men submit to Christ and woman submit to her husband in the same manner. To say that it is oppression is to say that Christ oppress His people. That is not true.

 

[Entropic_Prodigy]

I know forums are difficult, because its a "free for all" but strictly speaking the church is gathered here as well and woman cannot teach.

We all have something to learn from one another. Whenever you open your mouth and talk about the salvation of Jesus Christ, you are teaching -- in a church, in a forum, or elsewhere. What do you do, go through all of the posts and skip over the ones written by women because you think you don't have anything to learn from them? Wherever there is learning, there is teaching, in some manner. As some have also pointed out, Cornelius, there are many instances of women teaching the word of God to various "congregations" of people throughout the bible.

Don't worry, I'll pray for you.

 

[Entropic_Prodigy]

No, it does not depend on what our definition of church is, it depends on what the Bible's definition of church is. When we meet in a situation where we worship and then somebody will teach, a woman will not do so.

Christ's Church is composed of all of his believers, and all those who witness in his name. Women were Prophets, Judges, disciples and witnesses in the bible, not placed in exclusively secondary roles. When you speak of looking at the big picture, or the bible as a whole, you can't ignore that women weren't completely silent and held into a completely submissive role all of the time -- you can't say they didn't teach. Considering the period that the bible was written in, it's quite amazing women were even mentioned as having these roles at all -- and I'm not surprised since they aren't highlighted in the sermons of most church leaders today, you seem unaware to give credit to this small, but frequently overlooked fact.

 

[Cornelius]

Isa 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they that lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

Yes that is true. Today we have spiritual infants on our pulpits and woman are ruling as well. The Bible teaches that they both lead God's people into error and they destroy the paths.

We have a Jezebel spirit today that we honor and welcome into the church.But the church is also paying dearly for it . It has been reaping spiritual immaturity.

 

[Cornelius]

One thing I know. I will not be able to change your mind about it. If you will not submit to the Word of God, why will you submit to anything that a person tells you ? You will not.

1Co 14:34 let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.
You say: let woman not keep silent in the churches, because they are permitted to speak.

The Bible says:1Ti 2:12 But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.

You say: I permit a woman to teach and have dominion over a man, and they must not be quiet.

You would forgive me, for rather believing what the Bible says.You might also understand why this is a ridiculous discussion, when the Bible is so clear about it.

C

 

[destiny]

Lets be fair. Scripture does not lay the blame for false teachers, prophets, wolves in sheeps clothing, or the antichrist HIMself, at the feet of woman. Those will all be predomately male.

Scripture does not blame woman for the condition of the church in the last days. Submission is a two way street; men won't be pardoned for what they have allowed the church to become, predomately at the hand of other wicked (men). To blame this on woman is absolutely incredible.

There is a false teacher, pastor, prophet.. etc. on just about every corner, slaughtering innocent sheep and leading naive people to Hell. The ones doing this are mostly male.

We need to get self in line with scripture before we worry about others. I hate these topics.. they always come to fingerpointing, division, and discouragment. NOT Gods order.

 

[Cornelius]

Lets be fair. Scripture does not lay the blame for false teachers, prophets, wolves in sheeps clothing, or the antichrist HIMself, at the feet of woman. Those will all be predomately male.

I re-read my posts and cannot find where I said, that woman are the cause of all what you point out. The Bible does however say that we have children (mostly immature men) who teach the church and then it adds, that the other wrong is woman who rule over God's people.

Scripture does not blame woman for the condition of the church in the last days.

No it does not, it only say SOME woman would be part of the problem

Submission is a two way street; men won't be pardoned for what they have allowed the church to become, predomately at the hand of other wicked (men). To blame this on woman is absolutely incredible.

I agree. And I am not blaiming woman for it, I think the blame is mostly to be placed at the feet of men, because they are not leading as they should.

There is a false teacher, pastor, prophet.. etc. on just about every corner, slaughtering innocent sheep and leading naive people to Hell. The ones doing this are mostly male.

Absolutely. MOSTLY male.

We need to get self in line with scripture before we worry about others.

100 % correct

I hate these topics.. they always come to fingerpointing, division, and discouragment. NOT Gods order.

If we do not speak up, we are doing what those immature men are doing at who's feet we want to place the blame. Division is caused when people do not submit to the Word, they then separate themselves from those who are submitted.
There is nothing wrong if we stand on what the Bible teaches. We are in fact to do that.We need to teach what the Word says, without adding or taking away.

1Ti 1:3 As I exhorted thee to tarry at Ephesus, when I was going into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge certain men not to teach a different doctrine,

 

[destiny]

The Bible does however say that we have children (mostly immature men) who teach the church and then it adds, that the other wrong is woman who rule over God's people.

You are quoting a verse from the Old testament concerning the Jews during an isolated period of time, right? This is not the norm throughout the (whole) context of OT scripture, and certainly not the new. So it shouldn't be cited to prove woman are ruling over men in todays churches, although it is apparent it was not Gods order.

If we do not speak up, we are doing what those immature men are doing at who's feet we want to place the blame. Division is caused when people do not submit to the Word, they then separate themselves from those who are submitted.
There is nothing wrong if we stand on what the Bible teaches. We are in fact to do that.We need to teach what the Word says, without adding or taking away.

I agree. But why strain at a gnat and swallow a camel, since the "good ole boy" system of men is much worse than anything woman have ever done to the church? My point being that these topics always lead to blame shifting. Men are to submit to Gods order too, but that isn't happening nor is it discussed.
I think true called Godly leadership brings out the best in the body of Christ, to the glory of God. Thats all I have to add.