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Catholicism and Apostolic Succession

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Devekut

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I think there are some key points of Catholic teaching that are commonly misunderstood and the origins of which are largely unknown. One thing Protestants often come into conflict with Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians over is the teaching of Apostolic Succession; that the authority and guidance of the Apostles is given to each successive generation, through God in the bishops, so as to safeguard the original Deposit of Faith as recieved from Christ and protect it from being mixed with error.

Now there are many here who will accuse Apostolic Succession of being unbiblical. While as a doctrine it is never explicitly stated, it is, like the Trinity, infered by Scripture and certainly consistent with Scripture. The central idea behind Apostolic Succession is that the original Christian community still exists today and has never been lost because its original members have died. Rather God, desiring to protect the revelation of the Christian religion from becoming corrupted, does not abandon his community and ensures its proper guidance through a recognized lineage. God chooses some for this position and not others. This neccessitates the authority of the bishops (and ultimately the bishop of Rome) because if every single person claimed Apostolic Authority the Christian community would become radically individualistic and private, each person yielding their own interpretation. This did happen when Protestants dissolved Apostolic Authority and ended their connection to the Apostolic Lineage. Today, Protestants argue over the true interpretation of Scripture without any way of knowing if they are correct besides their own person and no method to bind interpretation. Thus we will likely continue to see a spiralling of Protestant fragmentation everytime a new issue of interpretation is approached.

What shocks me most about the Protestant movement is that it is directly resisting 1500 years of Christian tradition and teaching regarding the authority of the Apostles being currently present and living in the Living Church.

Apostolic Succession is not new and it is not an invention of the Church. The earliest Christians after the Apostles maintained this teaching:

Clement I

"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).



Hegesippus


"When I had come to Rome, I [visited] Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And after Anicetus [died], Soter succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In each succession and in each city there is a continuance of that which is proclaimed by the law, the prophets, and the Lord" (Memoirs, cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 4:22 [A.D. 180]).



Irenaeus


"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian


"[The apostles] founded churches in every city, from which all the other churches, one after another, derived the tradition of the faith, and the seeds of doctrine, and are every day deriving them, that they may become churches. Indeed, it is on this account only that they will be able to deem themselves apostolic, as being the offspring of apostolic churches. Every sort of thing must necessarily revert to its original for its classification. Therefore the churches, although they are so many and so great, comprise but the one primitive Church, [founded] by the apostles, from which they all [spring]. In this way, all are primitive, and all are apostolic, while they are all proved to be one in unity" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 20 [A.D. 200]).



Clement I, Bishop of Rome is writing this as early as 80 AD when Luke was still being written. The two most ancient churches from which every other church has broken off, Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, adhere to this teaching.

On what basis do you reject something that the first generation after the Apostles believed and regarded as instituted by the Apsotles themselves?
 
Rome claims to have been the first church...We have the great examples of the first church in ACTS....''IF'' the catholic church indeed is the first century church,

Why do we not read about Mary's ascension?

Why do we not read about anybody praying to Mary as an intercessor?

Why is Mary and the saints not venerated?

In fact in the book of acts Mary is mentioned only one time...
Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

This verse also implied that 1 that Mary's prayers were no more special than anyone else's there 2 Jesus brothers were there as well......
 
jgredline said:
Rome claims to have been the first church...We have the great examples of the first church in ACTS....''IF'' the catholic church indeed is the first century church,

Why do we not read about Mary's ascension?

Why do we not read about anybody praying to Mary as an intercessor?

Why is Mary and the saints not venerated?

In fact in the book of acts Mary is mentioned only one time...
Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

This verse also implied that 1 that Mary's prayers were no more special than anyone else's there 2 Jesus brothers were there as well......
:smt066 Need you say more?? :-D
 
Hi Devekut,

Ultimate denial of the apostolic comprises of denying the apostolic office, AND in denying the apostolic man. Without the apostolic man there can be no apostolic office, but without the apostolic office I would say there can still be an apostolic man given.
 
Devekut said:
Clement I

"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).

The apostles did appoint bishops and elders in the early Church. Sometimes it was not the apostles, but it was apostolic delegates. If you look in Titus 1:5,7 you will see that the term bishop and elder are synonyms. This was mainly a teaching office and bore no similarity to the apostolic office. To suggest that Clement is teaching apostolic succession in his epistle is next to absurd. At this point there was not even a chief elder or a chief bishop. Clement wrote as one of the elders of the Church of Rome, not as the single bishop or elder of Rome. This is one of the theological assumptions of Rome. Typical Roman interpretation makes this increditable leap of wishful thinking that an elder (bishop) is the same thing as an Apostle. By this flawed logic they assume that there is apostolic succession. There is actually two other bishops. There is no reason to see Clement as having greater authority then other elders.

The proposition that Clement, as an elder, was the successor of any apostle is absurd.

Devekut said:
Hegesippus

"When I had come to Rome, I [visited] Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And after Anicetus [died], Soter succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In each succession and in each city there is a continuance of that which is proclaimed by the law, the prophets, and the Lord" (Memoirs, cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 4:22 [A.D. 180]).


Irenaeus

"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).

I do not know much about Hegesippus. In the quote he obviously speaks of a succession. I know I should do some homework here and observe if he is talking about the succession of apostles or the succession of elders.

Concerning Irenaeus, many of the Church fathers speak of "Apostolic tradition" but I see no reason to take this as referring to anything other then the teachings of the apostles in the NT.

Devekut said:
Tertullian

"[The apostles] founded churches in every city, from which all the other churches, one after another, derived the tradition of the faith, and the seeds of doctrine, and are every day deriving them, that they may become churches. Indeed, it is on this account only that they will be able to deem themselves apostolic, as being the offspring of apostolic churches. Every sort of thing must necessarily revert to its original for its classification. Therefore the churches, although they are so many and so great, comprise but the one primitive Church, [founded] by the apostles, from which they all [spring]. In this way, all are primitive, and all are apostolic, while they are all proved to be one in unity" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 20 [A.D. 200]).

Tertullian speaks of the early Church as being the offspring of the apostles. He is speaking of the apostles planting many of the early Churches. This is true, but it is not a claim of apostolic succession. This is typical Roman methods of interpretation. As soon as a Church Father says the word "apostle" those who bow to Rome finish his sentence with the word "succession." The complete word "apostolic succession" does not appear in any of the quotes above.


Devekut said:
Clement I, Bishop of Rome is writing this as early as 80 AD when Luke was still being written. The two most ancient churches from which every other church has broken off, Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, adhere to this teaching.

On what basis do you reject something that the first generation after the Apostles believed and regarded as instituted by the Apsotles themselves?
I think those that believe the bible will have difficulty understanding how such conclusions are drawn from such quotes. To you bible believers (and I am one) let me help you a little. Rome sees no difference between the terms bishop, and apostle. If you look at the criteria for the replacement of Judas Iscariot in Acts 1 you will see that it requires that one have seen Christ's earthly ministry and witnessed his resurrection. Then look at the qualifications of a Bishop in 1 Tim 3. Do you see any references to "seen Christ" in 1 Tim? Is there any evidence that a Bishop in 1 Tim 3 is the successor of an apostle?

Eph 4:11 is clear that they are two different offices.
11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Notice the apostles are first, then prophets, the pastor/teacher office is last on the list. They are two distinct gifts, and offices. Rome runs them all together to establish its false doctrine of "apostolic succession, and then misunderstands church history to defend its errors.
 
There is a verse in the Bible, and I can't think of it right now (someone want to help me locate it)? Anyway a woman told Jesus blessed is the womb who conceived Him. Jesus'response was something like blessed more is he who listens to the Word and follows it.

This Scripture shows that people were starting to uphold Mary in some type of authority, but Jesus but a stop to it with His response...
 
It was also mentioned in Luke 11:27, but Jesus replied:

"Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." (Luke 11:28)


Elisabeth said that to Mary also.
 
The focus of the passage was why someone is blessed rather than saying Mary was not blessed. That would be a contradiction since of Mary it is said "blessed are you among women". How could one not be blessed having the Son of God, God the Son for a Son. Children are a blessing scripture tells us. Mary was infinitely blessed in having Jesus as her son.


Mary's role in the Catholic faith is not one of authority Atonement. It is one of motherly intercession.
 
Jgred, was Mary blessed or not? Let's clear the ledger on that topic before we move on. Most blessed of all or not? If children are a blessing and her child was the infinite God I would think that an answer in the negative would border on blasphemy.

jgredline said:
Where in the bible is it taught that we are to pray to dead people?

Of we go on a tangent that will not be seen as a tangent.

God is not the God of the dead. Death does not separate us from Christ (see Romans 8) so why are you saying that Mary is dead?
 
thessalonian said:
The focus of the passage was why someone is blessed rather than saying Mary was not blessed.

??? That "someone" who is being bestowed "status" was Mary.

As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you."

He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it." Luke 11:28


And Jesus set the focus back on the Word of God.

thessalonian said:
That would be a contradiction since of Mary it is said "blessed are you among women". How could one not be blessed having the Son of God, God the Son for a Son.

She is blessed. God blessed her and she is indebted to Him, as we all are.

thessalonian said:
Mary was infinitely blessed in having Jesus as her son.

And we are infinately blessed in having Jesus as our brother. Hebrews 2:10-18

thessalonian said:
Mary's role in the Catholic faith is not one of authority Atonement. It is one of motherly intercession.

We don't need that, we have Jesus.

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5
 
Well I know Mary was blessed, this is not the issue Thess. We all know the Bible here, we are not in Bible elementary school. But the question is how far people extend that "blessed" to show her reverence as though she's deity. Which is NOT Scriptual.
 
How many times does the Bible say that we are blessed in Christ Jesus? How many time does the Bible say blessed is the man? So will you start praying to me as well? I'm also blessed because I wait for His return..

That would be a contradiction since of Mary it is said "blessed are you among women".


Notice it does not say blessed are you above all women.. We are blessed among all people because we are the salt of the earth. The light of the earth.
 
I have to respond again. If Mary was very important to the Church why is she mentioned so little? What I mean is this, the Bible say's she was blessed only in the Gospels and only acouple of times. Acts - Revelation Mary is not mentioned as being blessed above every and all woman. However through the Gospels and through Act's - Revelation we are told over and over that we are blessed.

I think if Mary were to come back today, she would do exactly what the angels do in Revelation when John falls before them, they tell John not to bow down but to serve the Lord and seek to do His will. I think Mary would be the same way..
 
thessalonian wrote:
Mary's role in the Catholic faith is not one of authority Atonement. It is one of motherly intercession.


We don't need that, we have Jesus.

We don't need the intercession of others? :o Then 1 Tim 2:1-4 is wrong. Paul shouldn't be asking for intercession of others?

We do not see Mary as diety in the slightest. That is prejudice. I think that in America we don't know what it is like to have a king and therefore don't have an understanding of the rules of respect and reverence that the Bible was written under. David bowed down before Bethsheeba. That is not worship. Honoring and showing reverence are not neccessarily worship. We know Mary is not deity.

Again blessing is not equal. Some are more blessed and some less and I can't imagine that I or anyone else could be more blessed than one who held the God man in her arms! If you have to go to that length to be right over Catholics I feel bad for you.
 
thessalonian said:
We don't need the intercession of others? :o Then 1 Tim 2:1-4 is wrong. Paul shouldn't be asking for intercession of others?
I'll intercede for you Thess! :wink:
 
Paul was asking for prayers from his brothers who are still on earth. Is it not Catholic belief that you should pray to the saints (as in those who have gone on to heaven before us) for intercession because they are not loaded down with the cares of the world and have a "purer" sense about them?
 
Justmee said:
Paul was asking for prayers from his brothers who are still on earth. Is it not Catholic belief that you should pray to the saints (as in those who have gone on to heaven before us) for intercession because they are not loaded down with the cares of the world and have a "purer" sense about them?

Great answer, you beat me to it....
 
sisterchristian said:
I'll intercede for you Thess! :wink:

Oh by all means please do. If your not in mortal sin (I can't judge that) the Lord will use your prayers that ask me to leave the RCC for something that is actually good.
 
Justmee said:
Paul was asking for prayers from his brothers who are still on earth. Is it not Catholic belief that you should pray to the saints (as in those who have gone on to heaven before us) for intercession because they are not loaded down with the cares of the world and have a "purer" sense about them?

Do you suppose those in heaven might have perfected faith? Are not those in heaven purer, i.e. completely so? They must be or they wouldn't be there for the book of revelations says "NOTHING UNCLEAN shall enter". So I would find it surprizing that you would disagree with such a belief.
 

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