Chatechism

[Davies]

Have you ever been chatechised. I know I haven't. I share a passage from The Pilgrim's Progress because it poses a lot of questions we should be able to answer as believers who have the Bible and the Spirit to help teach us.

If you have some time, read this and ask yourself what your answers would be, and were you remotely thinking of anything similar to the answers given.

Prudence is catechising Christiana's four children.

Prud. And she said, Come, James, canst thou tell me who made thee?
James. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.
Prud. Good boy. And canst thou tell who saves thee?
James. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.
Prud. Good boy still. But how doth God the Father save thee?
James. By His grace.
Prud. How doth God the Son save thee?
James. By His righteousness, death and blood, and life.
Prud. And how doth God the Holy Ghost save thee?
James. By His illumination, by His renovation, and by His preservation.

Then Prudence turns to Joseph:

Prud. Then she said, Come, Joseph (for his name was Joseph), will you let me catechise you?
Joseph. With all my heart.
Prud. What is man?
Joseph. A reasonable creature, so made by God, as my brother said.
Prud. What is supposed by this word, saved?
Joseph. That man, by sin, has brought himself into a state of captivity and misery.
Prud. What is supposed by his being saved by the Trinity?
Joseph. That sin is so great and mighty a tyrant, that none can pull us out of its clutches but God; and that God is so good and loving to man, as to pull him indeed out of this miserable state.
Prud. What is God's design in saving of poor men?
Joseph. The glorifying of His name, of His grace and justice, etc., and the everlasting happiness of His creature.
Prud. Who are they that must be saved?
Joseph. Those that accept of His salvation.

Prudence turns to Samuel:
Prud. Come, Samuel, are you willing that I should catechise you also?
Sam. Yes, forsooth, if you please.
Prud. What is heaven?
Sam. A place and state most blessed, because God dwelleth there.
Prud. What is hell?
Sam. A place and state most woeful, because it is the dwelling-place of sin, the devil, and death.
Prud. Why wouldest thou go to heaven?
Sam. That I may see God, and serve Him without weariness; that I may see Christ, and love Him everlastingly; that I may have that fulness of the Holy Spirit in me, which I can by no means here enjoy.

Prudence turns to Matthew:
Prud. I ask then, if there was ever any thing that had a being antecedent to or before God?
Matt. No. for God is eternal; nor is there any thing excepting Himself, that had a being, until the beginning of the first day. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is.
Prud. What do you think of the Bible?
Matt. It is the holy word of God.
Prud. Is there nothing written therein but what you understand?
Matt. Yes, a great deal.
Prud. What do you do when you meet with such places therein that you do not understand?
Matt. I think God is wiser than I. I pray also that He will please to let me know all therein that He knows will be for my good.
Prud. How believe you as touching the resurrection of the dead?
Matt. I believe they shall rise the same that was buried; the same in nature, though not in corruption. And I believe this upon a double account: first, because God has promised it; secondly, because He is able to perform it.

Many answers surprised me. Some I was trying to think what I would say. If only we knew our Bibles and the Spirit who illuminates...

- Davies

 

[Mitspa]

Have you ever been chatechised. I know I haven't. I share a passage from The Pilgrim's Progress because it poses a lot of questions we should be able to answer as believers who have the Bible and the Spirit to help teach us.

If you have some time, read this and ask yourself what your answers would be, and were you remotely thinking of anything similar to the answers given.

Prudence is catechising Christiana's four children.

Prud. And she said, Come, James, canst thou tell me who made thee?
James. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.
Prud. Good boy. And canst thou tell who saves thee?
James. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.
Prud. Good boy still. But how doth God the Father save thee?
James. By His grace.
Prud. How doth God the Son save thee?
James. By His righteousness, death and blood, and life.
Prud. And how doth God the Holy Ghost save thee?
James. By His illumination, by His renovation, and by His preservation.

Then Prudence turns to Joseph:

Prud. Then she said, Come, Joseph (for his name was Joseph), will you let me catechise you?
Joseph. With all my heart.
Prud. What is man?
Joseph. A reasonable creature, so made by God, as my brother said.
Prud. What is supposed by this word, saved?
Joseph. That man, by sin, has brought himself into a state of captivity and misery.
Prud. What is supposed by his being saved by the Trinity?
Joseph. That sin is so great and mighty a tyrant, that none can pull us out of its clutches but God; and that God is so good and loving to man, as to pull him indeed out of this miserable state.
Prud. What is God's design in saving of poor men?
Joseph. The glorifying of His name, of His grace and justice, etc., and the everlasting happiness of His creature.
Prud. Who are they that must be saved?
Joseph. Those that accept of His salvation.

Prudence turns to Samuel:
Prud. Come, Samuel, are you willing that I should catechise you also?
Sam. Yes, forsooth, if you please.
Prud. What is heaven?
Sam. A place and state most blessed, because God dwelleth there.
Prud. What is hell?
Sam. A place and state most woeful, because it is the dwelling-place of sin, the devil, and death.
Prud. Why wouldest thou go to heaven?
Sam. That I may see God, and serve Him without weariness; that I may see Christ, and love Him everlastingly; that I may have that fulness of the Holy Spirit in me, which I can by no means here enjoy.

Prudence turns to Matthew:
Prud. I ask then, if there was ever any thing that had a being antecedent to or before God?
Matt. No. for God is eternal; nor is there any thing excepting Himself, that had a being, until the beginning of the first day. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is.
Prud. What do you think of the Bible?
Matt. It is the holy word of God.
Prud. Is there nothing written therein but what you understand?
Matt. Yes, a great deal.
Prud. What do you do when you meet with such places therein that you do not understand?
Matt. I think God is wiser than I. I pray also that He will please to let me know all therein that He knows will be for my good.
Prud. How believe you as touching the resurrection of the dead?
Matt. I believe they shall rise the same that was buried; the same in nature, though not in corruption. And I believe this upon a double account: first, because God has promised it; secondly, because He is able to perform it.

Many answers surprised me. Some I was trying to think what I would say. If only we knew our Bibles and the Spirit who illuminates...

- Davies

Davies, you sound like one of those "bible believeing", "bible thumping" Holy rollers!

Good stuff- Mitspa

 

[farouk]

This kind of thing can be useful. But an expected, stock-response from a catechism class should never be taken as a substitute for personal faith, individually professed. (A lot of nominalism in the past has resulted from people having been brought into a local church through the working of 'the system', stock-responses, etc.

But as a teaching exercise, it can have some uses.

 

[Davies]

This kind of thing can be useful. But an expected, stock-response from a catechism class should never be taken as a substitute for personal faith, individually professed. (A lot of nominalism in the past has resulted from people having been brought into a local church through the working of 'the system', stock-responses, etc.

But as a teaching exercise, it can have some uses.

I know what you mean. There is nothing like memorizing your lines before answering questions in front of someone. I agree with you. Some churches exercise a forum where you have to answer questions before elders. I've always wondered what that was like. What do you think farouk, if we were to take the existing people in our churches and put them through and question and answer session individually, do you think they would pass muster? Could they articulate the Christian faith? Even if they were faulty in their views, would they be able to answer with faith the basics? 'Where is the heat lamp?' lol

If it could be done in love, with gentleness, I'd be for an examination board who would take members of the church through the examination process of checking the health of one's faith. The questions should be probing, asked in such a way as to bring out the faith of the person. This wouldn't be done to condemn anyone, but to help the individual and to help the pastor know the weaknesses in the church.

That's not realistic is it? It's a fantasy. People would be offended that anyone else should be able to examine one's personal faith between them and God. Who would want to be exposed for having a weak faith or as one who wasn't in the faith at all? It might destroy a church. Some people are offended that churches have official memberships and sign contracts.

- Davies

 

[farouk]

I know what you mean. There is nothing like memorizing your lines before answering questions in front of someone. I agree with you. Some churches exercise a forum where you have to answer questions before elders. I've always wondered what that was like. What do you think farouk, if we were to take the existing people in our churches and put them through and question and answer session individually, do you think they would pass muster? Could they articulate the Christian faith? Even if they were faulty in their views, would they be able to answer with faith the basics? 'Where is the heat lamp?' lol

If it could be done in love, with gentleness, I'd be for an examination board who would take members of the church through the examination process of checking the health of one's faith. The questions should be probing, asked in such a way as to bring out the faith of the person. This wouldn't be done to condemn anyone, but to help the individual and to help the pastor know the weaknesses in the church.

That's not realistic is it? It's a fantasy. People would be offended that anyone else should be able to examine one's personal faith between them and God. Who would want to be exposed for having a weak faith or as one who wasn't in the faith at all? It might destroy a church. Some people are offended that churches have official memberships and sign contracts.

- Davies

Davies:

I myself struggle with signing contracts. But the heartfelt, pastoral oversight, sensitive to winds of doctrine, is essential, too.

It kind of amuses or baffles me to see some of these Calvinist preachers, staunchly in favor of rigorous, doctrinal formulae (which in theory I might well agree with), insisting on TULIP, etc, but then they implement a system which supposedly extracts from church attendees some kind of supposed assent to their complex ideas, and they then portray such supposed assent as representing saving faith, simply because the 'system' has been in their eyes duly implemented.

In the end there is nothing that can replace regular, doctrinal and Biblical preaching and careful and caring, pastoral oversight, preferably with a plurality of overseers (and preferably with supportive wives who can come alongside other women and who don't need to be Gucci/Max Factor queens).

Blessings.

 

[Carolyn]

I learned a lot of the quote in the Lutheran church in adult confirmation. But when I did start hearing God's voice, obeying it and walking in the Spirit, I was able to recognize Him because He was the same God I had learned about in the creeds and in my confirmation Bible study. I had a solid foundation and learned the attributes of God so I was able to recognize Him. It was a big head start in my relationship with God.

 

[Davies]

I learned a lot of the quote in the Lutheran church in adult confirmation. But when I did start hearing God's voice, obeying it and walking in the Spirit, I was able to recognize Him because He was the same God I had learned about in the creeds and in my confirmation Bible study. I had a solid foundation and learned the attributes of God so I was able to recognize Him. It was a big head start in my relationship with God.

Hi Carolyn,

I'm missed out on confirmation when I was young. I went to a Methodist church, and though we had our Sunday school, we didn't have anything like confirmation. I'm not sure how much I would have learned, but I must say, I like the idea.

Witnessing to someone is similar to catechism. If a person is Bible illiterate, you can explain the Gospel to them and try to help them see themselves as God does. I know, conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit, but when someone comes into the shadow of the Law, they can then be given the light of the Gospel. I think this would be good for church members as well.

I'm glad, Carolyn, that you were given a head start with your faith. You were probably saved a mountain of trouble and misery. You said adult confirmation. Do churches have different age groups for confirmation? If they do, how young do they go?

- Davies