Cheap Grace

[WhiteWarrior]

Hello Everyone,

I would like to take a moment and talk about "Cheap Grace"
What do you think this means? What is your preception?

This may be by far one of the most misunderstood perceptions in the faith today. It is preached from the pulpets and taught in bibleschools it is talked about in and outside the church but who understands the truth to God's Grace? Well I am going to take a shot at it I hope you can hear me.

Grace is one of the best gifts he has given me. The work has been done and the victory already won all I need to do is follow in his steps.

from Bonhoeffer--
"Cheap grace means the justification of sin without the justification of the sinner."

Where did Cheap Grace come from? Most assuredly Satan but to really put a point on it Paul did. I do not support the writings of Paul for his lawlessness and many many other reasons which I will not go into here but one of them is most certainly
"Perverting God's Grace to Cheap Grace."

Please look at the facts not just the statement. the Word "grace" is used 127 times in the bible to my count and 86 times in the letters of Paul, 86! The word is stomped on over and over to pervert gospel of what grace really is.


Bonhoeffer was a Martyr and this is what he said about "Cheap Grace" in general
Cheap grace means the justification of sin without the justification of the sinner. Grace alone does everything they say, and so everything can remain as it was before. "All for sin could not atone." Well, then, let the Christian live like the rest of the world, let him model himself on the world’s standards in every sphere of life, and not presumptuously aspire to live a different life under grace from his old life under sin. That was the heresy of the enthusiasts, the Anabaptists and their kind….

So what Am I trying to say here? God's Grace is not cheap by any means that is why he sent his only begotten son because he so loved the world. It took a price of the whole sinless life, death, and blood of Christ to atone for mankind. It is sad and wrong when people think they can keep on living like the rest of the world and call themselves christians this is not christianity folks this is hypocrisy! it needs to stop! God is not happy with lukewarm faith we must become discples of his Son. We are called to a higher purpose this life is merely a practice run for the step into eternity. We must suffer,die, obey, and be persecuted just like the life of the messiah or else we end up deceiving others into thinking we are not Christians at all that Christianity is "easy" no it's not easy it is the most difficult thing in life and is only possible through God's Grace that we obey and that we are forgiven.

I am here to say what people don't want me to say obey the commandments keep the law of God to walk in his ways we must give up our ways and obey his word not Paul's word It's a battle inside yourself folks and it's about trusting the LORD with everything that is true. not simply living by grace to live any old way you want that is lawlessness and is not the way of the Kingdom of God.


Some People tell me this as an excuse for cheap grace
Matthew 22:36-40
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Behold let me reveal the interpretation to this message. The Messiah said this because if you really love him and the father then you will want to obey God's Law to Honor him not to have a reason to conform to the world.

The world is lawless because of sin and we are called to a higher purpose the "People & Friends of God" Not "People & Friends of the World"

So I leave you with a question and answer. What is Cheap Grace? Cheap Grace says any who believes recieves it and has nothing to do with obeying any commandments afterwords which is a disgrace to the advancement of his Kingdom.

 

[A-Christian]

So I leave you with a question and answer. What is Cheap Grace? Cheap Grace says any who believes recieves it and has nothing to do with obeying any commandments afterwords which is a disgrace to the advancement of his Kingdom.

I agree with that statement. Just because you answered an altercall way back in 1962 or accepted Christ while driving to work last week, does not mean you can live anyway you want to.

Peace

 

[Drew]

So what Am I trying to say here? God's Grace is not cheap by any means that is why he sent his only begotten son because he so loved the world. It took a price of the whole sinless life, death, and blood of Christ to atone for mankind. It is sad and wrong when people think they can keep on living like the rest of the world and call themselves christians this is not christianity folks this is hypocrisy! it needs to stop! God is not happy with lukewarm faith we must become discples of his Son.

I agree with this but vigorously contest your suggestion that Paul taught cheap grace. Where does Paul suggest that we can "party on" and still "make it to heaven"? Do you believe that Paul teaches that all we need to do is "accept Jesus" and then our future in heaven is secured even if we spend the rest of our lifes robbing banks and consorting with slatterns? I certainly don't think he teaches such things.

We are talking about the Paul, the author of such books as the "easy-readin" ( :-D ) book of Romans, aren't we?

 

[A-Christian]

We are talking about the Paul, the author of such books as the "easy-readin" ( ) book of Romans, aren't we?

:-D :-D that's good Drew

 

[WhiteWarrior]

On that Note

Isaiah 26:10
10 Though grace is shown to the wicked,
they do not learn righteousness;
even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil
and regard not the majesty of the LORD

When it comes to Paul is that he is teaching religiousness through faith in Christ (go to church, evangelize,etc) and not righteousness after faith in Christ (obeying God's Word and commandments)

 

[Drew]

When it comes to Paul is that he is teaching religiousness through faith and not righteousness after faith

Really? I do not think Paul is doing this at all. Please explain why you think this. For my part, I will offer something from Romans 2 (and I know this may annoy some people since I harp on this so much of late) that suggests that Paul believes that we will need to exhibit works in order to be justified:

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

 

[WhiteWarrior]

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

I think the distinction I am trying to make here is that Paul Confused the Gospel of Truth and has some scriptures that seem acceptable but he contradicts more times than one can count. This scripture reference is a contradiction to the scripture qouted previous.

Or maybe this is a better example

Romans 3:21
[ Righteousness Through Faith ] But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

 

[Drew]

Romans 3:21
[ Righteousness Through Faith ] But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

First of all, a theologian whom I believe to be reliable, has asserted that the phrase that has been translated "righteousness from God" can also be translated "righteousness of God". The reason has to do with the technicalities of "genetives". A phrase in greek of the form "love of God" can mean either "our love for God" or the "love of God for us".

And, for reasons I can go into but won't, I suggest that the better translation is indeed as follows:

"But now God's own righteousness, understood to be his faithfulness to his covenant, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify."

And I think you are assuming that "law" means 'good works'. I suggest it means something much more specific - Torah. If my positions on these issues can be supported, I think that in 3:21 Paul is simply saying that God has found a way to be faithful to his covenant that does not make us of Torah as the primary thing for fulfilling the covenant.

He is saying nothing about acquiring a state of righteousness independent of the works that are made manifest in our lives.

 

[WhiteWarrior]

What I mean by law is Torah and keeping Torah that is the way of righteouness after faith in Christ I speak of. There is no other system of good works that is codefined in the bible other than Torah that is the way we should live to please God. Supporters of Paul have no Law and are Lawless Believers in Christ should follow Law and in truth bear fruit of the spirt Love, Self-Control, Peace, Etc.

 

[Drew]

There is no other system of good works that is codefined in the bible other than Torah that is the way we should live to please God.

I do not share your view about this- Ithink there is "another system". For the present, I will do no more than to present this from Romans 9. If you are interested, we can discuss more:

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works.

 

[WhiteWarrior]

Drew- Okey then how would you describe this system?

 

[WhiteWarrior]

to be continued...I will check back another time.

 

[Drew]

Drew- Okey then how would you describe this system?

I will give a provisional response here, and ask that you understand that I am still thinking about this.

I think that Paul (and Jesus) as well teach that there exists a deeper and richer sense of "Torah" than "following the rules". So I do think Paul "re-defines" Torah from what is was normally understood to be - a series of "rules". And I think the essence of this lies in the words of Jesus:

Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments

This is the way to live - not by legalistically following 613 rules (or whatever). This is the Torah as "written on our hearts" at the time of covenant renewal. We still need to "do" Torah in this deeper, richer sense in order to be justified. And God gives us the Spirit to ensure that the work begun in us will be carried to completion.

 

[WhiteWarrior]

Now Drew I wonder if you read my entire post because I said this.

Some People tell me this as an excuse for cheap grace
Matthew 22:36-40
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

(my arguement here is these are commandments but not the only commandments)

You used that exact scripture for reference so I think that cannot refute cheap grace in my outline. However I am still waiting on a solid answer from you. Now you said the "torah" is written on our hearts and we should not follow rules. This you say is the way to live. Now you are entitled to live any way you want but we should live the way GOD wants by following his commandments. A man named Paul tried to deny this and I think he was wrong. It is my personal belief that the law written on our hearts is the 7 laws of noah which are from wikipedia.com Now these aren't in the bible but they are I guess universal laws now and even Bush recognizies.

Prohibition of Idolatry: There is only one God. You shall not make for yourself an idol. (Any religion you notice all worship ONE God whether true or false except the satanic trinity)
Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder.
Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit adultery.
Prohibition of Blasphemy: Revere God and do not blaspheme.
Prohibition of Cruelty to Animals: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
Requirement to have just Laws: You shall set up an effective judiciary to fairly judge observance of the preceding six laws.

Now you will notice many of these laws are obeyed in court law! It is under the new covenant that we have been passed these on our hearts which it is my firm belief that these laws exist only to draw us unto the original law with consideration of the fulfillment of Yashua the Christ. Why? Because you don't have to tell a drug dealer it's wrong to steal from him he knows or not to sleep with his girlfriend because he knows or not to kill his dog because he knows or how to swear because he should know better.