Children of Unbelievers

[JM]

What happens to the children of unbelievers who die before they are able to believe [this covers handicap folks as well]? It's my understanding, the Scriptures are silent as to UNBELIEVERS BUT NOT TO BELIEVERS and their offspring who die before they accept or reject the Gospel.

"Most Calvinistic theologians have held that those who die in infancy are saved. The Scriptures seem to teach plainly enough that the children of believers are saved; but they are silent or practically so in regard to those of the heathens. The Westminster Confession does not pass judgment on the children of heathens who die before coming to years of accountability. Where the Scriptures are silent, the Confession, too, preserves silence. Our outstanding theologians, however, mindful of the fact that God's "tender mercies are over all His works," and depending on His mercy widened as broadly as possible, have entertained a charitable hope that since these infants have never committed any actual sin themselves, their inherited sin would be pardoned and they would be saved on wholly evangelical principles." The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, by Loraine Boettner, Eleventh Printing, The Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, Philadelphia, PA 1963 435 pages.

http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/in..._boettner.html


From this point on, I'm re-writting a quote taken from the internet....

What age can an infant believe? 2 Tim. 14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

In v.15 "child" in Greek is baby. It appears that Timothy's mother and grandmother read the Scriptures to the baby Timothy, tradition that was practiced by the Jews.

2 Tim. 1:5When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

2 Tim. 3:15 is confirmed, that faith of the parents was the reason it was dwelling in him...by covenantal promise. How can reading Scriptures in a language that a baby does not understand result in faith, or at least knowing the Scriptures?

2Tim.3:16 states - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God..."

So, the word "breathed" certainly takes a literal turn.

Please keep in mind that I'm not arguing that children of unbelievers will in fact be sent to hell, I'm arguing that Scripture is silent on this issue, I just want to know if Scripture speaks to unbelievers in reguards to their children, I've yet to find any.

Peace,

jm

 

[mutzrein]

Does it need to say anything beyond, "no-one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of the Spirit"?

So those who are not born of the Spirit, perish - again as scripture says.

 

[Solo]

As through one man, Adam, death passed on to all men because of sin, many will be saved through one man, Jesus Christ.

15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein. Luke 18:15-17

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 5:12-21

 

[Dalen Naskiel]

I've also wondered something similar to this. What if you were a devote Christian for 30 years, took Jesus as your savior, went to Church daily, then one day you end up getting brain damage from some bizzare event (such as fighting an Ogre), and then went mentally ill. Let's say you can't comprehend what's around ya anymore, and lose all the thoughts you've ever had, counting the knowledge about God... Of course, even in this state your gonna commit sin, but you won't even know it. You won't be able to repent your sins anymore, so are you forever damned...?

 

[thessalonian]

I've also wondered something similar to this. What if you were a devote Christian for 30 years, took Jesus as your savior, went to Church daily, then one day you end up getting brain damage from some bizzare event (such as fighting an Ogre), and then went mentally ill. Let's say you can't comprehend what's around ya anymore, and lose all the thoughts you've ever had, counting the knowledge about God... Of course, even in this state your gonna commit sin, but you won't even know it. You won't be able to repent your sins anymore, so are you forever damned...?

God is just an merciful. Further he would not hold such a person accountable for what they do not understand. I think Luke 12 is perhaps one of the best passages for the idea of invincible ignorance. "the one who did not know will recieve a light beating". In the case you describe, of one who is incapable of knowing, no punishment is likely.

 

[JM]

Being “born again†is the work of the Holy Spirit, it’s not an intellectual ascent to truth until this work of regeneration is done. If someone was regenerated and then suffered an injury that would rob them of intellect, I would have a hard time understanding why the Holy Spirit would leave that person when the work of sanctification wasn’t complete.

Do we perform good works on the prompting of the Spirit or by our intellectual ascent to these truths in the Gospel?


Solo, great scriptures! Amen. But the scriptures you quoted are address, at least in these passages, to believers. What about unbelievers and their children?

John Calvin believed that infants that passed were born again, regenerated by the Spirit and they passed on to eternal life as God's plan...which always have a purpose we may not understand...

Peace,

jm

 

[Rob]

I don't know, the Bible doesn't really say much on this issue. I have been studying the doctrine of original sin and have definitely come up with some questions on this issue. The question in this post is only valid if you believe in the doctrine of original sin. I think there are a few verses that show otherwise though,

And God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupted. For all flesh had corrupted its way on the earth. (Gen 6:12 LITV)

They have corrupted themselves; they are not His sons; it is their blemish; they are a crooked and perverse generation. (Deu 32:5 LITV)

Psa 14:1-3 LITV To the chief musician. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, There is no God! They acted corruptly; they did hatefully in deeds; there is none doing good. (2) Jehovah looked down from Heaven on the sons of mankind, to see if there were any discerning and seeking God: (3) they have all turned aside; together they have become filthy; there is none doing good, not even one!

Ecc 7:29 LITV See, this only I have found, that God has made man upright, but they have sought out many inventions.

Rom 5:12-21 LITV Because of this, even as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death passed to all men, inasmuch as all sinned. (13) For sin was in the world until Law, but sin is not charged where there is no law; (14) but death reigned from Adam until Moses, even on those who had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a type of the coming One. (15) But the free gift is not also like the deviation. For if by the deviation of the one the many died, much more the grace of God, and the gift in grace, which is of the one Man, Jesus Christ, did abound to the many. (16) And the gift is not as by one having sinned; for indeed the judgment was of one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many deviations to justification. (17) For if by the deviation of the one death reigned through the one, much more those who are receiving the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall rule in life by the One, Jesus Christ. (18) So then, as through one deviation it was toward all men to condemnation, so also through one righteous act toward all men to justification of life. (19) For as through the one man's disobedience the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many shall be constituted righteous. (20) But Law came in besides, that the deviation might abound. But where sin abounded, grace much more abounded, (21) that as sin ruled in death, so also grace might rule through righteousness to everlasting life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 9:11 LITV for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of the One calling,

I also suggesting reading Ezekiel 18:1-32 as it really seems to destroy the doctrine of original sin.

I have to ask this, if man was created in God's image then wouldn't that mean we were created without sin? To say that man is born into sin is to say one of two things, either God is a sinner or man is no longer created in God's image. Since the first of the two options is one that no Christian will even consider I'll argue the second.

Jam 3:9 LITV By this we bless God and the Father; and by this we curse men having come into being according to the image of God.

That clearly shows that man is still created in the image of God. Come on now people, the Bible clearly shows that God doesn't hold the sins of the father against the son. If God doesn't hold the sins of the father against the son then what sin would a small baby that doesn't even know the difference between right and wrong be? On the same note, how can one without the knowledge of the difference between good and evil sin? Was it not until Adam and Eve ate from the tree that they knew the difference between good and evil which made them fall into sin? The Bible makes several cases that young children do not know the difference between good and evil but never makes a statement of the age that that knowledge is gained. I firmly believe that an aborted baby isn't going to be cursed to hell because of it's parents unbelief. I firmly believe that because a small baby has never known evil, nor been able to sin that child will go to heaven. I honestly don't think that a man who is made in the image of God is made into sin, I believe that man was created upright(as the Bible says) and that it is a mans heart and knowledge of evil that creates the sin.

 

[mutzrein]

Being “born again†is the work of the Holy Spirit, it’s not an intellectual ascent to truth until this work of regeneration is done. If someone was regenerated and then suffered an injury that would rob them of intellect, I would have a hard time understanding why the Holy Spirit would leave that person when the work of sanctification wasn’t complete.

Do we perform good works on the prompting of the Spirit or by our intellectual ascent to these truths in the Gospel?


Solo, great scriptures! Amen. But the scriptures you quoted are address, at least in these passages, to believers. What about unbelievers and their children?

John Calvin believed that infants that passed were born again, regenerated by the Spirit and they passed on to eternal life as God's plan...which always have a purpose we may not understand...

Peace,

jm

JM - was this in response to me?

 

[JM]

Nahhhh, just thinking.

 

[destiny]

Babies are sinless and completely innocent. I can't imagine anyone perceiving God as so merciless and cruel that he would punish lifes most innocent for something they had no comprehension of.
God isn't like that.

 

[Solo]

Babies are sinless and completely innocent. I can't imagine anyone perceiving God as so merciless and cruel that he would punish lifes most innocent for something they had no comprehension of.
God isn't like that.

When you say that babies are sinless, why do they die? The wages of sin is death, so if babies are sinless, why do they die?

 

[destiny]

Babies are sinless and completely innocent. I can't imagine anyone perceiving God as so merciless and cruel that he would punish lifes most innocent for something they had no comprehension of.
God isn't like that.

When you say that babies are sinless, why do they die? The wages of sin is death, so if babies are sinless, why do they die?

Are you equating physical death with sin? Why would you do that, it makes no sense. Are we not all appointed a time of death?

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

Doesn't that put it on a (spiritual) playing field instead of natural?

 

[Solo]

Are you equating physical death with sin? Why would you do that, it makes no sense. Are we not all appointed a time of death?

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

Doesn't that put it on a (spiritual) playing field instead of natural?

The wages of sin is death, and the gift of God is everlasting life through Jesus Christ. All who have died will be resurrected and those that participate in the first resurrection will experience the corrupt putting on incorruption, and the mortal putting on immortality. All those who die physically, die because of sin, and they will be resurrected. This is not just a spiritual playing field, otherwise the body would not require a resurrection.

Jesus was resurrected bodily, and he ascended in his resurrected body.

 

[destiny]

The wages of sin is death, and the gift of God is everlasting life through Jesus Christ. All who have died will be resurrected and those that participate in the first resurrection will experience the corrupt putting on incorruption, and the mortal putting on immortality. All those who die physically, die because of sin, and they will be resurrected. This is not just a spiritual playing field, otherwise the body would not require a resurrection.

Jesus was resurrected bodily, and he ascended in his resurrected body.

Yes, we all die a physical death because of the original sin which happened in Eden. It sounded like you were insinuating that babies die because they (are) sinners; they did inherit a sin nature but are innocent of literal sin.
Babies are innocent of sin but not immune from the consequences of the original sin, which is physical death. None of us are.

 

[mutzrein]

Oh dear - what happened to my post - me thinks I must have previewed and not submitted. Ooops.

Anyway I wanted to provoke thought not only on the condition of babies but all ‘innocents’ who have not been born again.

On the basis of the premise that says the good go to heaven and bad go to hell we seem to want to accommodate those we deem innocent (or good) BUT not born again.

Could it be that the premise is wrong?

 

[destiny]

Oh dear - what happened to my post - me thinks I must have previewed and not submitted. Ooops.

Anyway I wanted to provoke thought not only on the condition of babies but all ‘innocents’ who have not been born again.

On the basis of the premise that says the good go to heaven and bad go to hell we seem to want to accommodate those we deem innocent (or good) BUT not born again.

Could it be that the premise is wrong?

I have a question concerning babies only..
Enlighten me as to how a one month old infant is to become born again? Does this baby need to repent of it's sins and ask Jesus into it's heart?? :o :o :o

 

[JM]

Faith is not the cause, but an effect of justification; it is not the cause of it in any sense; it is not the moving cause, that is the free grace of God; "Being justified freely by his grace", #Ro 3:24 nor the efficient cause of it; "It is God that justifies", #Ro 8:33 nor the meritorious cause, as some express it; or the matter of it, that is the obedience and blood of Christ, #Ro 5:9,19 or the righteousness of Christ, consisting of his active and passive obedience; nor even the instrumental cause; for, as Mr. Baxter {5} himself argues, "If faith is the instrument of our justification, it is the instrument either of God or man; not of man, for justification is God's act; he is the sole Justifier, #Ro 3:26 man doth not justify himself: nor of God, for it is not God that believes": nor is it a "causa sine qua non", as the case of elect infants shows; it is not in any class of causes whatever; but it is the effect of justification: all men have not faith, and the reason why some do not believe is, because they are none of Christ's sheep; they were not chosen in him, nor justified through him; but justly left in their sins, and so to condemnation; the reason why others believe is, because they are ordained to eternal life, have a justifying righteousness provided for them, and are justified by it, and shall never enter into condemnation: the reason why any are justified, is not because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith, is because they are justified; was there no such blessing of grace as justification of life in Christ, for the sons of men, there would be no such thing as faith in Christ bestowed on them; precious faith is obtained through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ, #2Pe 1:1 nor, indeed, would there be any room for it, nor any use of it, if a justifying righteousness was not previously provided. Agreeable to this are the reasonings and assertions of Twisse {6}, Maccovius {7}, and others. Now if faith is not the cause, but the effect of justification; then as every cause is before its effect, and every effect follows its cause, justification must be before faith, and faith must follow justification.

Faith is the evidence and manifestation of justification, and therefore justification must be before it; "Faith is the evidence of things not seen", #Heb 11:1 but it is not the evidence of that which as yet is not; what it is an evidence of, must be, and it must exist before it. The "righteousness of God", of the God-man and mediator Jesus Christ, "is revealed from faith to faith", in the everlasting gospel, #Ro 1:17 and therefore must be before it is revealed, and before faith, to which it is revealed: faith is that grace whereby a soul, having seen its guilt, and its want of righteousness, beholds, in the light of the divine Spirit, a complete righteousness in Christ, renounces its own, lays hold off that, puts it on as a garment, rejoices in it, and glories of it; the Spirit of God witnessing to his spirit, that he is a justified person; and so he is evidently and declaratively "justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God", #1Co 6:11.

See the op.

 

[destiny]

I said..

I have a question concerning babies only..
Enlighten me as to how a one month old infant is to become born again? Does this baby need to repent of it's sins and ask Jesus into it's heart??

I will add because of JM's post...Why wouldn't God justify an infant?

 

[JM]

I said..

I have a question concerning babies only..
Enlighten me as to how a one month old infant is to become born again? Does this baby need to repent of it's sins and ask Jesus into it's heart??

I will add because of JM's post...Why wouldn't God justify an infant?

Des, you're missing the point. I'm not saying God "wouldn't justify an infant." I'm asking on basis would God justify an infant? There is no Scripture on this, the Bible is silent...where it does speak on this topic is always in the context of a believer/covenant relationship...

That's all.

 

[destiny]

I said..

I have a question concerning babies only..
Enlighten me as to how a one month old infant is to become born again? Does this baby need to repent of it's sins and ask Jesus into it's heart??

I will add because of JM's post...Why wouldn't God justify an infant?

Des, you're missing the point. I'm not saying God "wouldn't justify an infant." I'm asking on basis would God justify an infant? There is no Scripture on this, the Bible is silent...where it does speak on this topic is always in the context of a believer/covenant relationship...

That's all.

If we will stand before God and be judged 'according to our works' that would seem to disqualify an infant from the judgment seat.
An infant is also disqualified from those who deliberately disobey by refusing to believe in Jesus.

"He that believeth on Him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the Name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:18).

Heres something I found on this subject..

King David had a child by Bathsheba which died in infancy. David's words are significant: "While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me" (2 Samuel 12:22-23). The clear sense of this passage is that David believed that he would be reunited with his child in the next life. He knew the baby, having died, could not come back to this life, but he believed that he would go to him. While we can't be dogmatic that such a passage teaches infant salvation, yet it does seem to point in that direction.
Hmmm