Church = Israel?

[JM]

Do you believe the Church is the continuation of Israel, or do you see them as separate and distinct groups of people? Why?

 

[ThePostmillPresbyter]

The Bible teaches that Christians are the children of Abraham, the true Israel of God (Romans 9).

 

[liafailrock]

The church and Israel are different. Israel is the chosen people of God in accordance with the promises to Abraham. Their purpose was to bring glory to God. (Isaiah 49:3). Included in these numerous Abrahamic promises are to become a great population group, perhaps a 1/4 of the world's population according to Baalim's prophecy in Numbers, to become many nations, to inherit the land, but also to inherit the world, to be a blessing to all nations, to have many kings, to possess the gates of their enemies, to become a military power second to none. These are promises for an actual race of people prior to the second Coming of Christ (this has been fulfilled already so Christ can come anytime now).

From these people would come the elect (a.k.a. Christians known as "sons of the Living God"--- addressed to Israel in Hosea 1:9-10). So the one is material blessings to all these people from which these same people would bless the world with more blessings, and the spiritual component would originate from the same people to perpetuate the gospel. (Romans 11:4). Christians do not replace Israel, however, many (and maybe most) Christians are literal sons of Abraham--- there is a physical, genealogical lineage and spiritual as well.

This is all in the Bible, clear and straightforward.

 

[ddubsolo85]

Jews and Gentiles are children of Abraham. The church includes Jews and Gentiles, the children of Abraham.

Israel ONLY is from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That excludes all Gentiles. Gentiles are not Israel. There is a major difference.

God Bless!

 

[liafailrock]

Jews and Gentiles are children of Abraham. The church includes Jews and Gentiles, the children of Abraham.

Israel ONLY is from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That excludes all Gentiles. Gentiles are not Israel. There is a major difference.

God Bless!

I couldn't agree more--- some folks confuse the church with Israel, and that's called replacement theology. However, from what I am saying, I believe a lot of the church fulfills the promises to Israel because the church includes many of the actual (physical) seed of Abraham, on the order of multiple millions, although they do not know they are from Israel (thinking they are Gentiles).

 

[Mac0486]

yep! would definetly go w/ ddubsolo85 on that one.

 

[kwag_myers]

I voted yes. I see Israel as a physical representation of what Paul called "heavenly things" (Romans 8:5). I don't see where, in the New Testament, Israel represents anything but the physical nation. The church is referred to as the church, the saints, or as the bride.

I'm not sure that I can agree with liafailrock on the point of Christians replacing Israel. My reason for this is found in Jeremiah 3:8 where God declares that He has divorced Himself from Israel because of her unfaithfulness.

 

[destiny]

Replacement theology is responsible for the brainwashing of many "christians" who are turning against Israel these days.
I always wondered how that could happen, all it took was a very crafty deceptive manmade doctrine.

 

[kwag_myers]

Replacement theology is responsible for the brainwashing of many "christians" who are turning against Israel these days.
I always wondered how that could happen, all it took was a very crafty deceptive manmade doctrine.

I've never heard of it before. I'd be curious to know how these Replacement Theology supporters view Genesis 12:3. In looking at present day Israel, I'd have to say the God is still looking out for them. I wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of that.

 

[destiny]

Replacement Theology basically teaches that the church has completely replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of Replacement Theology believe that the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel
Replacement Theology teaches that the Church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian Church, not in Israel. So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are "spiritualized" or “allegorized†into promises of God's blessing for the Church.
Theres a link to the rest of this, but I lost it...You can do a search on it, it's very common and is being taught in mainstreamland without people even realizing it.

 

[kwag_myers]

Thanks! I should have mentioned that I googled it. I'd like to study it further, but it sounds to me like a typical trick of Satan, "Let's take the truth and twist it just enough to cause descension among the Christians".

 

[liafailrock]

I'm not sure that I can agree with liafailrock on the point of Christians replacing Israel. My reason for this is found in Jeremiah 3:8 where God declares that He has divorced Himself from Israel because of her unfaithfulness.

I think you misunderstood me. Jeremiah 3:8 is one passage of scripture I taught on already. God divorced Israel, but not Judah (the Jews). Now what happens when a woman divorces? If she remarries, she gets another name. She forgets her old identity. The old husband died, freeing her from that covenant to become covenanted again in Christ. (This is why I am so adamantly against divorce and remarriage except if the former spouse died)

This is what happened to Israel. They became Gentiles, but in reality are the seed of Abraham. (In other words, if one could trace their physical genealogy back, they'd have Abraham as father). They were exiled and never returned to the land of Israel. So where are those "lost tribes"? These physical children of Abraham migrated elsewhere, and in turn became the nations that as a whole accepted Christianity--- which are those? Mostly European, British and American. No wonder these nations became so great! Many are from the tribe of Joseph which was promised the birthright which the Jew does not have (only the scepter and law-making functions) My web site has been posted below (on the www) for a long time now. You can stop by to see what I am saying.

Cheers.

 

[kwag_myers]

I was with you up to where the husband dies. I don't see Israel's first husband dying any time soon. Instead, God (in Jeremiah 8) goes on to call Israel to repentance. Then, He promises Israel to be reunited with Judah.

We see this also in Hosea (who represents God) and Gomer (who represents Israel). Only through God's redemption (Jesus) can Israel return to God.

I think that we agree on the point of this thread, but maybe not in agreement as to why. I looked at your web site, but I'm hesitant to download the book before doing some research. What I found (here http://allwatersportsbooks.co.uk/068508809X.html?details=true) was not very favorable. But that's all I will say on the subject since this is not the point of the thread.

 

[presbuteros]

The Church IS the Israel of God.
Believing Jews received Jesus as the Christ, the Messiah and followed Him. Christianity sprang from her roots which is Israel. It is an ongoing continuity.

The promises of the OT made to the Jews are being fulfilled in us, ergo, we are the Jews.

 

[JM]

The Church IS the Israel of God.
Believing Jews received Jesus as the Christ, the Messiah and followed Him. Christianity sprang from her roots which is Israel. It is an ongoing continuity.

The promises of the OT made to the Jews are being fulfilled in us, ergo, we are the Jews.

I understand the exegesis Calvin used to get to this point, but not all N.T. types can be read back into the O.T. It's just not possible. A great example is Sunday for the Reformed Church is the Sabbath, that's simply not true. Either Christ is our Sabbath or you have Saturday.

I respect your opinion and understand how you came to that conclusion, I disagree.

jason

 

[liafailrock]

I was with you up to where the husband dies. I don't see Israel's first husband dying any time soon. Instead, God (in Jeremiah 8) goes on to call Israel to repentance. Then, He promises Israel to be reunited with Judah.

We see this also in Hosea (who represents God) and Gomer (who represents Israel). Only through God's redemption (Jesus) can Israel return to God.

I think that we agree on the point of this thread, but maybe not in agreement as to why. I looked at your web site, but I'm hesitant to download the book before doing some research. What I found (here http://allwatersportsbooks.co.uk/068508809X.html?details=true) was not very favorable. But that's all I will say on the subject since this is not the point of the thread.

Well, you're welcome to download the book--- at least its free (I can't understand why anyone sells something any longer that is in public domain other than to have it bound materially in a nice-looking book).

I trust you can come to your own conclusions and not judge something that is not considered favorable. The medical establishment basically does not believe in vitamins, either, but yet there are some people that sware by them (besides, there's more money to be had in big drugs). The danger in mainline opinions is that they are just that--- opinions and mainline under the guise of supporting scholarship. But they can be biased. Jesus warned against the broad path that leads to destruction. I'm not sure why people feel safer with the crowd.

 

[kwag_myers]

My big hang up hear, liafailrock, is the person who couldn't validate the information.

"Allen tells the reader that the prophet Jeremia in companion of some daugthers of the Davidic linage and a the scribe Baruch flee from Judah to Egypt and from there to Ireland. He claims that the ancient history of Ireland has this account in their writings. I made an in-depth search to find these writings Allen is refering to. They do not exist! I have no clue, where Allen has these ideas from, but they are not biblical, nor in any way historical and are deffinetely not in the records of Ireland."

Here's the thing, and Jason, this goes to you as well. How does this topic and this book point a person toward Jesus? Because, in my opinion, if it doesn't bring a person closer to Jesus, it's just religious babble.

So Jason, I'm curious as to why you started this thread?

 

[JM]

Here's the thing, and Jason, this goes to you as well. How does this topic and this book point a person toward Jesus? Because, in my opinion, if it doesn't bring a person closer to Jesus, it's just religious babble.

So Jason, I'm curious as to why you started this thread?

This is the theology forum, we are thinking and posting about God and mans relationship to Him. Believing you are a Jew when you are not does affect how you live out your Christian life, for we are not called to live as a Jew, but as members of the Church.

Contrasts to study:

Israel is a nation chosen by God and sustained by covenant promises (Deut. 7:6-9). Not all individuals in this chosen nation are saved (Rom. 9:6; 11:28).
The Church is a called out assembly of believers who have been baptized into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13). Every member of the body of Christ is saved, though there are multitudes of professing Christians who may not be saved (2 Tim. 2:19).

Israel traces its origin to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Jacob being the father of the twelve tribes).
The Church traces its origin to the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) when believers were first placed into the body of Christ.

In God’s program for Israel, His witnesses comprised a nation (Isaiah 43:10).
In God’s program for the Church, His witnesses are among all nations (Acts 1:8).

God’s program for Israel centered in Jerusalem (Matt. 23:37) and will again center in Jerusalem during the Tribulation (Matt. 24:15-20) and during the Millennium (Isa. 2:1-5).
God’s program for His Church began in Jerusalem and extended to the uttermost parts of the earth (Luke 24:47; Acts 1:8). The Church is identified with the risen Christ, not with any earthly city.

The hope and expectancy of Israel was earthly, centering in the establishment of the Kingdom of the Messiah foretold by the prophets (Jer. 23:5-8; Isa. 2:1-5; 11:1-16).
The hope and expectancy of the Church is heavenly, centering in the glorious appearing of Christ to take His people to heaven (John 14:1-3; Phil. 3:20-21; Col. 3:1-4; 1 Thess. 4:13-18).

God’s purpose and program for Israel was revealed in the Old Testament Scriptures.
God’s purpose and program for the Church was not revealed in the Old Testament, but was revealed by the New Testament apostles and prophets (Eph. 3:5).

Israel’s history which is in view in Daniel 9:24 (the 70 weeks or 490 years) involved animal sacrifices. These years will include the tribulation. Israel’s millennial history will involve the same (Ezek. 43:27).
The Church’s history does not involve animal sacrifices. Messiah’s sacrifice is commemorated by means of the Lord’s Table.

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/di ... raelch.htm

As you can see, a difference can be found between the two groups of people found in the Bible. Again, the use of types can get you into a kwag_myers of sorts.

peace

 

[liafailrock]

My big hang up hear, liafailrock, is the person who couldn't validate the information.

"Allen tells the reader that the prophet Jeremia in companion of some daugthers of the Davidic linage and a the scribe Baruch flee from Judah to Egypt and from there to Ireland. He claims that the ancient history of Ireland has this account in their writings. I made an in-depth search to find these writings Allen is refering to. They do not exist! I have no clue, where Allen has these ideas from, but they are not biblical, nor in any way historical and are deffinetely not in the records of Ireland."

Here's the thing, and Jason, this goes to you as well. How does this topic and this book point a person toward Jesus? Because, in my opinion, if it doesn't bring a person closer to Jesus, it's just religious babble.

So Jason, I'm curious as to why you started this thread?

All I can say, is it depends who you ask. I know there's scholars both past and present that believe the evidence is adequate.

The reason this is important to know is because God made some serious promises to the patriarches Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I find it interesting that scoffers sneer at the evidence claiming this evidence does not exist, but they do not explain (nor is there an explanation with any substancial backbone) as to what the promises really mean or how they are fulfilled if not this way.

As for Jesus, the covenental promises to the patriarches is the basis for faith in a future Messiah. If the other promises (such as Israel becoming many nations or an eternal Davidic King) fail, then the whole fabric of Christianity also fails.

Besides, Israel was to be God's light-bearer to the fallen world. If "Gentiles" now took that role, then God failed His promises. The list goes on, but this is the crux.

Instead of my Easter message link at the bottom, go to my main www site at the bottom icon. I have a "links" area in the lower right of my main home page. Also, in the years 2003-2004 messages, I have indexes there that point to messages that refutes those who refute fellows such as Allen. There's sources in those messages as well.

 

[kwag_myers]

Thanks Jason, that helps me to understand where you're coming from. I'm not sure that I agree with everything on the list, but that's not really the point of this thread, so I'll let it go.

I've just quickly read through Romans 9 and I get the impression that Paul is addressing this very issue. He quotes Isaiah 10:22-23 saying, "Though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand on the seashore, only a small number will be saved." and Hosea 2:23, "Those who were not my people, I will now call my people. And I will love those whom I did not love before." There's more, but I just wanted to give some examples that validate my position.

All I can say, is it depends who you ask. I know there's scholars both past and present that believe the evidence is adequate.

I can find scholars that believe all kinds of theories. Please remember that the scholars of Jesus' era, the scribes, dismissed Jesus as the Messiah because He didn't fit their interpretation. At best, this issue is debatable. I need for you to show me that this is not, "...every wind of doctrine..." (Ephesians 4:14). Sorry, but this is all I'm seeing in your messages on your web site; your interpretation of prophecy verses someone elses. You even state yourself that, "...neither side will be convinced at the others' argument."

The reason this is important to know is because God made some serious promises to the patriarches Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I find it interesting that scoffers sneer at the evidence claiming this evidence does not exist, but they do not explain (nor is there an explanation with any substancial backbone) as to what the promises really mean or how they are fulfilled if not this way.

Explain to me, please, how this agrees with 2 Corinthians 1:20, which tells me that I am entitled to all of God's promises through Jesus. This is what I mean when I say, "how does this point people toward Jesus". Jesus is all that anyone needs to receive God's promises. It's all about Jesus, not about if you're this or if you're that.

Romans 8:14 tells me that if I am led by the Spirit of God I am considered a son, and 15 says that I am adopted into the family of God. So, I'm covered by Jesus and by the Holy Spirit, as I've received them both.

As for Jesus, the covenental promises to the patriarches is the basis for faith in a future Messiah. If the other promises (such as Israel becoming many nations or an eternal Davidic King) fail, then the whole fabric of Christianity also fails.

Besides, Israel was to be God's light-bearer to the fallen world. If "Gentiles" now took that role, then God failed His promises.

Romans 9:6, "Well then, has God failed to fulfill his promise to the Jews? No, for not everyone born into a Jewish family is truly a Jew!" Your statement seems to contradict this, or am I misunderstanding you?