Cigarette Smoking Christians

[Drew]

The preacher Spurgeon smoked. It was before the days of some effective medicine, and it apparently gave him some relief to a medical condition.

(Two cents'.)

I doubt that it "relieved a medical condition". In any event, the "sinfulness" of smoking lies solely in its health effects. And when people were ignorant of these, I would not suggest that it would have been "sinful" for them to smoke. It still hurt them - but they did not know any better.

 

[farouk]

D:

What about the balancing risk argument? some ppl are chronically ill, and maybe can't afford strong meds that relieve pain.

I don't promote smoking. But the circumstances in which it sometimes occurs I can understand, to some extent.

This is why I don't take an 'absolutist' approach.

 

[Drew]

No fornicator will go to heaven. No liar will either. You're pretty good when it comes to elucidating the various implications you feel have been hurled wrongly at you --and have said, "but have I returned in kind?"

The transcript of the thread shows that I have not taken the low road that you and others have taken.

What about when you equate smoking to damnable sin such as adultery?

Here is what is so difficult about discussing this with you guys. Not only do you take personal shots, you invent things. I never "equated" adultery to smoking - please read the post as it is written. I was making an argument about turning things into idols - there was nothing in my post that could reasonably to taken as a statement that smoking is as bad as adultery. I am not convinced one is worse than the other, if you must know, but I did not make such an evaluation in the post to which you are responding.

The essense of the pharisee's error was that they used a imballanced scale. They clearly put they thumb on their own side of the scale and considered their thought and belief to be weighter. All the while they dismissed the actual weightier matters of the law - Mercy (Compassion) and Justice and the Goodness of God who is altogether Good and without shadow of turning.

I agree - but of what relevance is this. If you are suggesting I am making the same mistake, then by all means please support such an assertion - don't just claim it.

One does not need to claim that 'Moses is my father' in order to say, "My abiding by the law and not smoking makes me better than those who are preventing God from restoring Edenic Paradise," (your thought, not mine). Frankly I don't know where you even get that idea.

What an outrageous untruth.

I shall not dignify this entirely unjustified slur with a response.

Before you go again descirbing the "outrageous misrepresentations made about [you]", you may want to consider a retraction. The Bible does not mention cigarettes or tobacco.

Your behaviour in making false accusation is indeed outrageous. I have repeatedly argued why the "smoking is not in the Bible" line of thinking is incorrect.

Instead of imagining hypocrsy and putting words into my mouth, why not actually engage the arguments that I have made about why the "smoking is not prohibited in the Bible so it is not sin" argument misses the point.

I am assuming that you don't mean smoking marijuana which is illegal and sin. Is smoking a cigarette sin? That's between God and that child of God.

Begs the question.

You have no business equating smoking with idol worship or sleeping with your best friend's wife. That the outrageous and provocative statements that draw fire. What you're doing is a form of trolling. SO then when you see a rock hurled over your head as a warning shot?

You are mistaken - I never did any of these things. Please read the posts more carefully. How can I discuss things with people who read things into my posts that are simply not there?

You decry it? Fine. You make me wanna go have a cigarette and relax. Dang.

Its your body and, for good or for bad, God has given you the freedom to whatever you want to it.

What do you think Paul was alluding to when he mentioned praying 3 times to be delivered from a "thorn in is flesh" was all about? Your honest impression would be helpful to clear the air, methinks.

I have no idea what Paul was alluding to.

 

[Drew]

D:

What about the balancing risk argument? some ppl are chronically ill, and maybe can't afford strong meds that relieve pain.

I don't promote smoking. But the circumstances in which it sometimes occurs I can understand, to some extent.

This is why I don't take an 'absolutist' approach.

I assume you are suggesting that smoking functions as a "pain reliever" for people who are otherwise seriously ill? Well, if that's so, I would still say that its sin to smoke. But that doesn't mean that I think we should "rebuke" such people.

I know that some here simply cannot hear what I am about to say but I will say it anyway: it is entirely legitimate to acknowledge that smoking is "sin" in the sense that it works against God's kingdom agenda, and yet "understand" that people are addicted to it, or that it may give them some kind of comfort.

Even though I have never said anything to support such a reaction, many here think that I am sitting in self-righteouns judgement, suggesting that those who smoke are weak-willed and should be lectured. I am doing nothing of the kind. I have repeatedly asserted that its an addiction - so I "understand" why people smoke, and I do not think I am better than those people. I have my own struggles, smoking does not happen to be one of them.

I drive a car that pollutes God's precious world. Could I get by without the car? I suppose I could. But I don't, at least not right now. Do I think that polluting the world unnecessarily is sin? Yes I do. So, to the extent that I do not really need the car, I am "sinning". Like the smoker, but to a much smaller degree, the car is an "addiction of convenience". Since I believe smoking is much more "addictive" than driving a car, there is a sense in which my driving a car is "more" sinful - it would be easier for me to give up the car than it would be to be for someone to give up smoking.

All I am saying is that smoking is sin - I am not calling for smokers to be shot, pubically humiliated, or anything like that.

 

[farouk]

Drew:

Thanks for your comments.

So are you saying that even with a preacher like Spurgeon, who presumably was a very mature Christian, Romans 14 and matter of Christian liberty can never apply to smoking in any circumstances?

(I guess it sometimes depends on how the question is phrased.)

 

[Sparkey]

I have no idea what Paul was alluding to.

I appreciate your frank admission. It was sin. Do you think it would be wise then to compare what he was doing to having sex with his best friends wife? That is outrageous on the face of it and surely you must see this.

~Sparrow

PS - I don't follow about your choice of vehicle being a sin either. I don't know how to help you see what I'm trying to say without sounding critical but that's not sin. The whole world will pass away. There is no law governing the things that you are talking about. No law except one -- if in your good conscience before God you feel that it's a sin, then (for you) it is. I simply disagree and will continue asking the Lord to show you clearly how much you are forgiven and given liberty to be his loved child and the cause of his joy.

 

[Drew]

I appreciate your frank admission. It was sin. Do you think it would be wise then to compare what he was doing to having sex with his best friends wife? That is outrageous on the face of it and surely you must see this.

No I don't see this - since we do not know what it was, how do we have any basis to compare it to having sex with his best friend's wife?

But this is beside the point - despite what you may believe, I never compared smoking to committing adultery in any post prior to the one where you seemed to think that I had.

But I will go on record - I suspect that more fundamental damage is done to God's programme of redemption and healing by smoking than by people sleeping with best friend's wives. Millions and millions smoke - many die needlessly young, leaving families to grieve and to fend for themselves (if the decedent is the breadwinner). Smoking costs millions and millions of dollars - money that could be spent on other health concerns not related to our lifestyle choices.

I would like to think that, devastating as it is, sleeping with your best friend's wife is relatively uncommon.

But let no one misrepresent me (there's wishful thinking!): I am not suggesting its OK to sleep with your best friend's wife.

Here's the problem by analogy: Western Christians focus on sex and ignore things like global justice. Check it out - you will see many more threads about sexual sin than threads about our responsibility to deal with third world debt, or environmental issues. We think too narrowly. Similarly, we focus on sexual sin and ignore the absolutely horrendous matter of gluttony in our culture.

So we need to be careful about "comparing" sins.

 

[Drew]

There is no law governing the things that you are talking about.

Again - where does this idea come from that "if there is no one-line command in the Bible against something, that something cannot be sin"?

....and will continue asking the Lord to show you clearly how much you are forgiven and given liberty to be his loved child and the cause of his joy.

I doubt very much that God's intent in giving us liberty is to enable us to enjoy a "cool Pall Mall".

The whole world will pass away

The Bible does not really teach this, at least in the sense I believe you mean.

Incorrect theology leads to bad life choices. And as I believe I have hinted at, this belief that God is going to "destroy and replace" our world is probably responsible for many of our incorrect ideas about sin - including the belief that smoking is not a big deal since the world will get toasted anyway.

 

[Sparkey]

I doubt very much that God's intent in giving us liberty is to enable us to enjoy a "cool Pall Mall".

Agreed. Drop it, will ya? You who beg others to read again what has been said need not me to direct you toward that same goal - read what I said -- it was about you, about your admission of sin. Nothing to do with cigarettes, but it had to do with your continued and willful self-admitted unrepented sin. That's all. I was saying that your vehicle choice was NOT, in my opinion a sin. God's grace is sufficient for you, Drew. It is.

 

[Pard]

Just throwing it out there...

That whole "polluting the world with your car" thing is an allegation created by the same people who made up evolution and such other stuff like that. Not to derail this thread (like I could really derail it anymore anyways!!!), but I think you should stick to facts that are not possible lies created by scientific frauds... Heck the people who invented to it even admitted to faking data in order to keep the myth of global warming (or whatever the heck it is going by this week...) alive.

And if you think that driving a car is a sin because it pollutes the world, may I suggest you also read the report by the EPA which states that CO2 is a poison and it is "killing the world"? You may want to then consider breathing a sin as well because you are exhaling a POISON! OMG....

Also, may I recommend that you stop eating beans, since methane is going to "kill the world", I guess beans are a sin, along with anything else that makes you fart... Though farting won't be a problem if you stop breathing...

Eating a cow must be a sin, by your logic, because cows put out more methane than any other creature and by buying beef you are fueling the beef economy and thus allowing more cows to "KILL THE WORLD"!

Shoot, before it is to late! Turn of your lights and TV and fridge and stove and everything, yes even your computer... Those are going to "KILL THE WORLD" too!

Hey, you better go buy a "earth friendly" car... oh wait, they don't exist... You see those electric cars are frauds too. They make you feel good because you don't have to put gas into it and thus you feel free of "KILLING THE WORLD", but in reality you are still "killing the world" only you are doing it by pumping coal emissions into the air a few hundred miles away.

...


Sorry I went off like that, but that bit about how you are sinning by driving a car... seriously? That is fallacious to the extreme!

 

[Drew]

Agreed. Drop it, will ya? You who beg others to read again what has been said need not me to direct you toward that same goal - read what I said -- it was about you, about your admission of sin. Nothing to do with cigarettes, but it had to do with your continued and willful self-admitted unrepented sin. That's all. I was saying that your vehicle choice was NOT, in my opinion a sin. God's grace is sufficient for you, Drew. It is.

I will no longer be discussing this issue with you.

 

[Drew]

That whole "polluting the world with your car" thing is an allegation created by the same people who made up evolution and such other stuff like that. Not to derail this thread (like I could really derail it anymore anyways!!!), but I think you should stick to facts that are not possible lies created by scientific frauds...

Just when I thought this thread could not get worse.

Please - there is no dispute, automobiles do indeed pollute the environment.

And if you think that driving a car is a sin because it pollutes the world, may I suggest you also read the report by the EPA which states that CO2 is a poison and it is "killing the world"? You may want to then consider breathing a sin as well because you are exhaling a POISON! OMG....

This is a tired, but clearly incorrect argument.

 

[Pard]

glad you finally are giving up on this thread (I'd have given up like ten pages ago)... back to topic.

Cigarettes =/= sinful.

 

[Oats]

I do think smoking cigarettes is a sin.

But this is my opinion and it may not be absolutely Biblical, the reason I think it is a sin is because there is a healthy alternative for cigarettes.

Now fast food may not be a sin, nothing we eat is one hundred percent healthy. And for a parent on the go buying a dollar burger and fry may be necessary...but buying the double size with pie and shake may be pushing it

If there is a fast and cheap alternative to fast food, then I would say don't eat fast food.

Same with caffeine, coffee can be bad in extreme amounts, red bull alike, but If you are trying to stay alert then use it with moderation. If you think it is bad then offer and cheap and equivalent alternative.

But as for cigarettes, I know from experience (not a lot though) that they are a waste. There are millions of healthy alternatives that calm you down much better.

---------------------

Just to drop this in

Weed is healthier than manufactured cigarettes, can I smoke that?

I disagree though

I am trying to quit smoking altogether by the Grace of God....

But I think we should look deeply into the situation....

What good is gained from cigarettes?

 

[Sparkey]

I will no longer be discussing this issue with you.

Just for clarification sake, what issue? The issue of your sin (harmful emissions) or the issue of mine (harmful inhalations AND emissions)? By the way, I should mention that I am a very courteous smoker (if there are degrees of such things) and abide by all laws regarding the use of tobacco. I'm fairly sure (giving the benefit of the doubt) that your vehicle has passed or would pass emission testing and isn't an odious offender either. Tell you what, I won't smoke near you if you agree to not run your cars' exhaust into my bedroom. Given that? In what way do either of us trespass against the other?

Citing the rising cost of healthcare doesn't cut it for this deal, unless you are a neighbor of mine and are taxed by the same governmental authority as i. Even then my portion of your healthcare increase (to you as an individual) would involve math beyond your or my comprehension. If we agree that healthcare costs increase by ~40% for a smoker over that of a non-smoker and further stipulate that the entire cost is covered by public expense (it isn't) - then my portion would be equal to the 1 divided by the total population. The cost would also have to be mitigated by the taxes raised by my expenditures as well. Clearly I would be better off to set aside all monies that are spent on tobacco for my future but that's not what I've heard you argue. There are how many people in the population we are talking about? Hmmmm.... are you a citizen of the same country as me? Can you spell moot point? The other day I heard it pronounced as "mute point" and if that is what you are saying above when you say, "I will no longer be discussing this with you," --thanks.

 

[Drew]

Weed is healthier than manufactured cigarettes, can I smoke that?

"Weed", as you put it, is often illegal, so that is another consideration. All other things being equal, there is a lot to be said for obeying the laws of the land.

If it turned out that "weed" has benefits - and it may well have some - then perhaps it should be made legal and people could use it without "sinning".

Again, in my view anyway, this all about whether the activity (in this case, smoking marijuana - I am too old to be sure this what you refer to as "weed") is a healing, restorative, anti-death activity (which therefore lines up with what God is doing) or whether its brings decay, pain, and loss (and therefore works against what God is doing).

I can imagine the possibility that, in some contexts anyway, marijuana might be OK in the sense I have described.

What good is gained from cigarettes?

This is indeed the key question. I see no good at all, only sickness, death, and impoverishment. And I will hasten to repeat for the umpteenth time - I am not wagging my finger at smokers, I am sympathizing that they are dealing with an addiction and need our support.

 

[Bonairos]

I re-posted the following post (in its’ entirety) because I believe it has it’s merits in this “Cigarette Smoking Christians†thread (#212). Somehow it got lost in the fray, but all is well. It comes from a “smoking†Christian’s point of view. Perhaps this view would be worth pondering/dialoging.

This is a ‘silent’ listener who intended to stay out of dialog by being just an observer. But after following the thread, she came to a point where she just had to give her perspective (after all, aren't we talking about cigarette smoking Christians?!)

How do I know for certain? Simple. GracenMercy is my wife of 29 years. Am I looking for validation for my point of view from her? HA! Is she looking for validation from me? HA-HA!

Nonetheless, my disclaimer is made. So please, let’s be adults and not try to read anything more to this except that I want to be upfront from the get-go.

Be blessed, Stay blessed!

I have been silently listening to this conversation amongst "believers" concerning cigarette smoking being "Sin"...it is incredible the way this one "thing" can bring such disagreement and judgment within the "Body of Christ".

I want to make it plain to those who have been passionate about their stance (whatever it may be)...

I am a smoking "Christian"! OOOOOOHHHHHHH!! I said it! Is there really such thing??? I would have to say, Yes! Because I am proof that we exist.

Now, before you get your panties all in a wad, let me say that I do not believe it is Gods best for me or anyone else. So, please spare me the arguments of how bad it is for my health. Yes I agree it is not healthy.

But before you make your judgments about me because I have identified myself as a "smoking Christian"...I have an answer to every argument you may want to throw at me.

My faith lies in Jesus and what He's already done for me.

Someone asked if I would light up in front of Jesus if he were to walk into the room....I do everyday of my life. When I am eating...showering...when I am sitting on the toilet and yes, even when I light up I am in His presence. There is nothing I or you can do in secret. Nothing is hidden from our God!

It is His Grace and Mercy that I daily reach for when I wake up each morning. It is His Wonderful Holy Spirit that leads me into all truth. It is my Father that I run to when I am weak...Even when I am smoking.

So, to answer the question, “How about them cigarette smoking Christians?†My answer to this very probing question is…†We alright!!!â€

PRAISE GOD!!

 

[Sparkey]

This is indeed the key question. I see no good at all, only sickness, death, and impoverishment. And I will hasten to repeat for the umpteenth time - I am not wagging my finger at smokers, I am sympathizing that they are dealing with an addiction and need our support.

Drew, I do appreciate what you are saying here although it may not be clear from what I have said. Your prayers and compassionate heart is trying to be heard and that goes a long way in mitigating the hurt and provocation that I have felt from somethings I have heard and may have misunderstood.

I'll promise nothing because I've tried and only failed but... well, we'll leave it at that - Something that occured to me when I was driving earlier today is that as each of us may be considered to be a different part of the body of Christ and because each of us share the same bond through His blood - I'm trying to think of a way to introduce an analogy about what we know as blood -- life is in the blood right? As I hear you say that you are willing to support but not willing to give up the fight (the stance about sin, which I respect) --it sounds like you're trying to find a right place as a white corpusle. They attack infection and stuff that are irritants and/or inflamamatents. If the white blood cells and more specifically the various parts of our immune system functions well the result isn't more pus and inflamation or irritation but healing. Women seem to be able to do this well and for reasons I can't fathom (maybe it has something to do with my reaction to my disapproving Dad's voice in me??) -- but it seems that men often have trouble making themselves heard well.

I am reminded of the last passage of the old testament. That the hearts of the fathers be joined to the children. That the hearts of the children be joined to the fathers. That the spirit if Elijah will be sent before Christ's return. Do you think that this may be in reference to his 2nd coming as well as what we know of John the Baptist? Just a thought, no need to answer this but I think we, as men and bondslaves to Christ need to continue to bridle our tongues (speech) to His purpose and suspect that you would agree.

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." - Malachi 4:5-6 KJV

 

[Drew]

I have been silently listening to this conversation amongst "believers" concerning cigarette smoking being "Sin"...it is incredible the way this one "thing" can bring such disagreement and judgment within the "Body of Christ".

I agree, it is quite incredible.

I am a smoking "Christian"! OOOOOOHHHHHHH!! I said it! Is there really such thing??? I would have to say, Yes! Because I am proof that we exist.

No one, of course, has denied that Christians smoke (and by implication cease to be Christians by doing so). And even though I have doubts some are willing to hear this (since they want to paint me as a self-righteous judge), I will repeat yet again: I understand smoking is an addiction and I have symptathy for those caught up in this addiction.

So, please spare me the arguments of how bad it is for my health. Yes I agree it is not healthy.

Here is the problem with this request that we "spare the arguments about health": you are effectively trying to sweep aside the essence of the relevant arguments. My point has been, and continues to be, the health consequences of smoking are not an irrelevant consideration that can be swept aside at your request, they are at the very heart of the argument for the sinfulness of smoking.

I will not repeat what I have said so many times - and what has been ignored as many times - about why smoking is sin. But I will repeat that it has to do precisely with it "being bad for you" - this is not a consideration that you can ask be "set aside" as you seem to be doing.

Whether intentionally or not, this request of yours is a pre-emptive strike to set the terms of the discussion. Well you do not really get to do that. You must, if you are to be fair, at least engage the arguments about the sinfulness of smoking in specific relation to the matter of "health".

More shortly....

 

[Drew]

My faith lies in Jesus and what He's already done for me.

This is only part of the picture. Anybody could say this as an implicit (if not explicit way) way of saying: All that matters is that I am forgiven and in God's good graces. Well, that is very important.

But so is that thing that so many evangelicals ignore - the Kingdom of God: the present programme of divine healing and reclamation of fallen creation. And to smoke is to work against that program.

I trust we all understand that Jesus did not die on the cross just so that "we get to go to heaven when we die". He died to deal sin and death (and decay) a decisive blow in this very present world. Jesus healed people physically. Do you think He did this to "show off" or to demonstrate "He was God"? I doubt it very much. These acts of healing function to tell us what the Kingdom of God is all about - it is about healing, physical healing, along with a lot of other stuff. Remember, Jesus is the "second Adam" - the new prototype representing true human-ness, as constrasted with fallen Adamic humanness. And what does the second Adam do? He heals.

So when we smoke, or do anything that destroys, damages, or mars the world God is in the process of trying to heal and restore, I do not see how that cannot be "sin".