Commonly Referred to as Separate or Partial Rapture

[Partrib]

Revelation 3.10 says "Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Who is on the earth before the Tribulation? Both Christians and non-Christians.

Christians can't receive initial salvation by works so 3.10 is referring to those already saved who receive a blessing and other believers lose this reward. It is a conditional statement because it says "Because..." so if "thou keeps the word of my patience" that person will escape not just trial as Christians have always faced but the hour of the trial of the Tribulation itself, and the only way one can be assured of this is by rapture, for many Christians will be martyred during the Tribulation. The Tribulation last seven years. It is the 70th seven in Dan. 9.27, and all Daniel's 69 sevens are 2,520 days each (360 x 7) that pointed to when Christ would be cut off.

Luke 21.36 confirms this condition for Christians, "But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

What is to come to pass to stand before the Son of man? The Tribulation -- Daniel's final seven.

And again in Matt. 24, "Then shall two man be in the field; one is taken, and one is left: two women shall be grinding at the mill; one is taken, and one is left. Watch therefore: for ye know not on what day your Lord cometh."

So the believer is told to watch. If you don't want, there are consequences. It is better to be taken by the Lord than left. If you watch you will be taken. Taken when? Taken before the important events that unfold in the Tribulation as described in the 7 Trumpets of the Tribulation. The 7th Seal opens up the 7 trumpets and the 7th trumpet pours out the 7 bowls of wrath like a lock tumbler combination to understanding Revelation.

When will this take place? Immediately after the 3 events in Rev. 6.12: "And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood." Then that first rapture according to readiness takes place "before the throne" (7.9) before the 1st trumpet is blown in 8.7.

The great earthquake already happened. 320,000 died in Haiti in 2010 and the 4th greatest earthquake recorded in human history by magnitude was in Japan 2011. Never in human history have two earthquakes with such impact occurred back to back, year over year. The second item, in order, occurred Nov. 3, 2013 the long H3 Hybrid solar eclipse which is the rarest of all solar eclipses was the 4th since Christ and won't happen again till 2172. There are 4 kinds of solar eclipses, the rarest which is the hybrid occurring about 5% of the time. Of the hybrids there are 3 types in which the H3 is the rarest. And it is a long version which lasts for more than a minute and a half.

The 3rd item is the feast Total Lunar Tetrad 2014/15 which will be the 8th since Christ and doesn't happen again till 2582/83.

I for one am saved and can never lose salvation because the Bible says those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28), but I can lose the reward of being raptured before the Tribulation and not be included in the 5 wise virgins to enter the marriage feast of the millennial reign over the nations for 1000 years (Matt. 25.1-13; Rev. 2,26,27, 20.4-6) before the New City and New Earth commence.

So daily I read the word of God and prepare myself that if I meet God's standards, keeping the conduct of Matthew 5-7, that I pray along with Paul that I may be accounted worthy. Paul did not pray to be saved or to be kept saved, for he knew his salvation was assured and had eternal life which could never be lost, but what he did pray for was this reward.

Thank you Jesus.

 

[Eugene]

Revelation 3.10 says "Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Who is on the earth before the Tribulation? Both Christians and non-Christians.

Christians can't receive initial salvation by works so 3.10 is referring to those already saved who receive a blessing and other believers lose this reward. It is a conditional statement because it says "Because..." so if "thou keeps the word of my patience" that person will escape not just trial as Christians have always faced but the hour of the trial of the Tribulation itself, and the only way one can be assured of this is by rapture, for many Christians will be martyred during the Tribulation. The Tribulation last seven years. It is the 70th seven in Dan. 9.27, and all Daniel's 69 sevens are 2,520 days each (360 x 7) that pointed to when Christ would be cut off.

Luke 21.36 confirms this condition for Christians, "But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

What is to come to pass to stand before the Son of man? The Tribulation -- Daniel's final seven.

And again in Matt. 24, "Then shall two man be in the field; one is taken, and one is left: two women shall be grinding at the mill; one is taken, and one is left. Watch therefore: for ye know not on what day your Lord cometh."

So the believer is told to watch. If you don't want, there are consequences. It is better to be taken by the Lord than left. If you watch you will be taken. Taken when? Taken before the important events that unfold in the Tribulation as described in the 7 Trumpets of the Tribulation. The 7th Seal opens up the 7 trumpets and the 7th trumpet pours out the 7 bowls of wrath like a lock tumbler combination to understanding Revelation.

When will this take place? Immediately after the 3 events in Rev. 6.12: "And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood." Then that first rapture according to readiness takes place "before the throne" (7.9) before the 1st trumpet is blown in 8.7.

The great earthquake already happened. 320,000 died in Haiti in 2010 and the 4th greatest earthquake recorded in human history by magnitude was in Japan 2011. Never in human history have two earthquakes with such impact occurred back to back, year over year. The second item, in order, occurred Nov. 3, 2013 the long H3 Hybrid solar eclipse which is the rarest of all solar eclipses was the 4th since Christ and won't happen again till 2172. There are 4 kinds of solar eclipses, the rarest which is the hybrid occurring about 5% of the time. Of the hybrids there are 3 types in which the H3 is the rarest. And it is a long version which lasts for more than a minute and a half.

The 3rd item is the feast Total Lunar Tetrad 2014/15 which will be the 8th since Christ and doesn't happen again till 2582/83.

I for one am saved and can never lose salvation because the Bible says those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28), but I can lose the reward of being raptured before the Tribulation and not be included in the 5 wise virgins to enter the marriage feast of the millennial reign over the nations for 1000 years (Matt. 25.1-13; Rev. 2,26,27, 20.4-6) before the New City and New Earth commence.

So daily I read the word of God and prepare myself that if I meet God's standards, keeping the conduct of Matthew 5-7, that I pray along with Paul that I may be accounted worthy. Paul did not pray to be saved or to be kept saved, for he knew his salvation was assured and had eternal life which could never be lost, but what he did pray for was this reward.

Thank you Jesus.

Hi partrib and welcome to CF.net in Jesus' name.. You give Matt 5-7 as the qualifications for the place of being delivered from tribulation if I’m understanding you correctly. Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: do you think this is addressed to them already in Christ?

I do believe we are to be ready to be in that provision of pre-tribulation such as Revelation 3:10, but to me it is promised to them alive who keep the patience of God’s word, or patiently keep the word. To be kept from that time they must appear in heaven prior to tribulation, and that would be them of Revelation 5:8-10. Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (or over – being in heaven it will be over the earth) the earth.

Them of Revelation 7:9 are the great multitude that were not ready and appear out of great tribulation.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

What are conditions told us as to who will reign with Christ? Romans 8:17 is a decided factor in comparing Christian and Christian.
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God (all children of God are heirs and will be in heaven at some point), and joint-heirs with Christ; IF so be that we suffer (or endure – Patiently keeping the word?) with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Tim 2:12 2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us. (What will Jesus deny us?- it’s not our salvation or inheritance.)

I might ask if you’re familiar with teachings on the difference of the bride of Christ reigning conjointly with Him, and them that will be before the throne of God as servants in His temple.

Thanks and blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[Partrib]

Hi partrib and welcome to CF.net in Jesus' name.. You give Matt 5-7 as the qualifications for the place of being delivered from tribulation if I’m understanding you correctly. Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: do you think this is addressed to them already in Christ?

Revelation 3.10 can't be referring to general tribulation which you misread what I said, but THE Tribulation at the end of this age because it is to come upon the whole word in connection with the parousia of Christ, that is, His return to stand before the Son of Man. Moreover, God does not promise Christians are to be without trial, e.g. many martyred saints in the 2nd century Smyrna church period in Rev. 2. Did His promise fail? No, of course not. The Roman Catholic Church killed many Christians, i.e. OSASers, Arminians and premillennialists. Rev. 3.10 is referring to the end of this age.

Matt. 7.13 is addressing the life of a believer after being saved as the verse before it indicates by saying, "your Father" (v.11) and is teaching them in chapter 7 the way of faith. Non-believers do not know God as their Father.

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat" (v.13).

The straight gate refers to the outer life, outward conduct, in Matt. 5-7, but the way refers the deeper in Christian life. The reward is given to those who not only are saved, but whose conduct (indicted by the gate) and deeper inner spiritual life (the path) meet the condition stipulated in Scripture. "Destruction" here is not loss of eternal life, for that is impossible for believers, but loss of reward. It is estimated only one of the 7 churches was an overcomer church, Philadelphia, so only 1 out of 7 believers receive the reward alive at the 1st rapture; likewise, only 1 out of 7 of all believers in history will return to reign during the 1000 years.

I do believe we are to be ready to be in that provision of pre-tribulation such as Revelation 3:10, but to me it is promised to them alive who keep the patience of God’s word, or patiently keep the word. To be kept from that time they must appear in heaven prior to tribulation, and that would be them of Revelation 5:8-10. Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (or over – being in heaven it will be over the earth) the earth.

Since not all Christians are ready, not all will be raptured before the Tribulation. All Christians will be readied in time, just no at the same time.

Rev. 5 is recounting the cross, in remembrance, of the Lord Jesus as though newly slain. Nobody has been raptured yet to heaven in Rev. 5, till the past 20 centuries is done in Rev. 6 concurrent with the 7 church periods (chapters 2 & 3). Hence, we find the 1st Seal the rider has a white robe for He is the same in Rev. 19 when He returns. He holds a bow with the arrow shot that formerly looked like a cross giving Satan deadly wound by the power of the cross.

The 24 Elders are the 24 archangels. 24 is the number of the 24 courses in the OT and is the number of administration. The archangels have been administering upon this universe for a very long time. They are the eldest of the elders. Lucifer, fallen Satan use to be one of them, was subsequently replaced by Michael the archangel, protector over the nation of Israel.

Rev. 5.9 says "hast redeemed them". 5.10 says "they shall reign". Most Bible renderings disagree with the late dated KJV rendering.

There are many poofs of this, but my favorite is the KJV error of changing 'them' to 'us' (Rev. 5.9) - yet their robes were never washed by the blood (7.9)-; and taking our own prayers to heaven? (5.8, 8.4). Angels take prayers to heaven, not men. And the believer's robes are washed, not the angels' robes.

Them of Revelation 7:9 are the great multitude that were not ready and appear out of great tribulation.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

What are conditions told us as to who will reign with Christ? Romans 8:17 is a decided factor in comparing Christian and Christian.
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God (all children of God are heirs and will be in heaven at some point), and joint-heirs with Christ; IF so be that we suffer (or endure – Patiently keeping the word?) with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Tim 2:12 2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us. (What will Jesus deny us?- it’s not our salvation or inheritance.)

I might ask if you’re familiar with teachings on the difference of the bride of Christ reigning conjointly with Him, and them that will be before the throne of God as servants in His temple.

Thanks and blessings in Christ Jesus.

The tribulation the great (Rev. 7.14) is not the 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation. The tribulation the great is the tribulation the past 20 centuries. Those in Rev. 7.9 are ready that's why they are before the Son of Man. Those that are not read are seen later in Rev. 11.15 with their voices from heaven. Rev. 7 to 11 are the major points of the Tribulation, and chapters 12 to 19 give the details. Rev. 11.15 takes place at the start of the 7th Trumpet which lasts 24 months (42 less 5 for the 5th trumpet and less 13 months for the 6th trumpet). 24 months before Jesus steps down we see the 7th trumpet rapture and resurrection.

Not so many are there that come out of an existing population of 7 billion if only 1 in 100 are saved, only 70 million, so the tribulation the great they come out of is from the past 20 centuries greater than any number of 200 x thousand x thousand. Just think the population not long ago was only 200 million so everyone would have had to be saved to be equal to 200 x thousand x thousand. Think about that.

In the NT the bride is the entire body of Christ. But in Rev. 19 she is no longer seen as the entire body, but just the overcomers such as the 5 wise virgins would be. Indeed, it is a comparing of believers with believers, not for loss of life, but loss of rewards.

 

[Eugene]

In the NT the bride is the entire body of Christ.

I have not found that to be so, but maybe you can show me. It’s evident we’re talking different events, but if you will allow me to inject the concept of rapture concerning those ready for the Lord’s return for them in the air.

First of all it will be the dead in Christ first and then we which are alive; that is two parts of the church. Smyrna represents those with no fault that die before Jesus comes, and Philadelphia them that are alive at His coming to be caught up together with those of Smyrna.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice something else about Smyrna and Philadelphia is that they both have crowns that the other five churches do not have. The remaining are told to repent.

Thanks anyhow in Christ Jesus.

 

[Partrib]

I have not found that to be so, but maybe you can show me. It’s evident we’re talking different events, but if you will allow me to inject the concept of rapture concerning those ready for the Lord’s return for them in the air.

First of all it will be the dead in Christ first and then we which are alive; that is two parts of the church. Smyrna represents those with no fault that die before Jesus comes, and Philadelphia them that are alive at His coming to be caught up together with those of Smyrna.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice something else about Smyrna and Philadelphia is that they both have crowns that the other five churches do not have. The remaining are told to repent.

Thanks anyhow in Christ Jesus.

Your timing is wrong. The Lord returning to meet the saints in the air occurs at the last trumpet, whereas those who meet the Lord before the throne is at the first trumpet (7.9). The first trumpet is the start of the Tribulation while the last trumpet is at the end of the Tribulation.

"The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete" (John 3.29).

Whereas...Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.” (Rev. 19.7-9).

Righteous deeds of the saints and invited to the marriage supper, like the 5 wise virgins are the Bride that make herself ready. The majority of Christians do not make themselves ready so they shall lose this reward. If you don't even acknowledge this then you automatically exclude yourself since you don't confirm in your heart the race that needs to be won.

The dead in Christ will be raptured with those who alive and left. Alive and left seems unecessarily redundant in 1 Thess. 4.14-18 for obviously those who are alive are certainly left to be received up near the end of the Tribulation. Hence, we can infer that those who are left are because they had not first been taken at the first rapture.

Smyrna had things to overcome such as overcoming even to death so God says "I will give the crown if" she does this; only Philadelphia was perfect before the Lord and says "no one will take your crown." Jesus returns at the Laodicean church age, the last church period, not the Philadelphian. When speaking of Philadelphian it is speak to the phase of the church of brotherly love we witness with the 1832 Brethren movement in which they wanted to be called just Christians and have no denominational affiliation. This truly touched God's heart. Laodicean soon followed after becoming worse and worse with "differing opinions."

While the first 3 church periods were consecutive and ceased to exist one after another as the subsequent church came into being, the last 4 remained each coming in succession yet remaining part of the landscape, e.g. RC system is a corruption of Thyatira, and Reformation ("justification by faith") Sardis is a revival that is like emptying a glass of water and filling it up again but with less water this time.

Pray on this as I pray for your understanding.

 

[TOG]

Christians can't receive initial salvation by works so 3.10 is referring to those already saved who receive a blessing and other believers lose this reward. It is a conditional statement because it says "Because..." so if "thou keeps the word of my patience" that person will escape not just trial as Christians have always faced but the hour of the trial of the Tribulation itself, and the only way one can be assured of this is by rapture, for many Christians will be martyred during the Tribulation.

The only way? Are you sure of that? Were the Israelites raptured to keep them from the tribulation (plagues) God sent on the Egyptians? According to my Bible, they weren't, but they still didn't suffer. While there was darkness all over Egypt, the Israelites had light. While the Egyptians' livestock got sick, the Israelites' livestock was healthy. God protected them from tribulation, without taking them off the earth. I believe He will do the same for us.

The TOG​

 

[Eugene]

“Your timing is wrong. The Lord returning to meet the saints in the air occurs at the last trumpet, whereas those who meet the Lord before the throne is at the first trumpet (7.9).”

I have to disagree here. You speak of a first rapture and of necessity there must follow succeeding raptures at different times. There are some (The 24 elders of Rev 4:4, and four beasts of Rev 4:6 present with Christ before the tribulation, and the great multitude later coming out of tribulation that John is shown in Rev 7:14.

"The one who has the bride is the bridegroom.”

Does this say to you that the entire church is the bride?

“The dead in Christ will be raptured with those who alive and left. Alive and left seems unecessarily redundant in 1 Thess. 4.14-18 for obviously those who are alive are certainly left to be received up near the end of the Tribulation. Hence, we can infer that those who are left are because they had not first been taken at the first rapture.”

Where is the being kept from the temptation to come upon all the world if they have to go through the tribulation?

Rev 3:11 “Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.”

There seemed to be qualifications to retain their crown. This was the same as with Smyrna when told in Rev 2:10 be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

“When speaking of Philadelphian it is speak to the phase of the church of brotherly love we witness with the 1832 Brethren movement in which they wanted to be called just Christians and have no denominational affiliation.”

Why are they known as Brethren in that case? Do they have a membership other than belonging to the Lord and being the church? 1 Cor 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Thanks again.

 

[Partrib]

The only way? Are you sure of that? Were the Israelites raptured to keep them from the tribulation (plagues) God sent on the Egyptians? According to my Bible, they weren't, but they still didn't suffer. While there was darkness all over Egypt, the Israelites had light. While the Egyptians' livestock got sick, the Israelites' livestock was healthy. God protected them from tribulation, without taking them off the earth. I believe He will do the same for us.

The TOG​

To believe that God will do the same for us is to mock the martyrs in the 2nd century church period called Smyrna. They could rightfully call God a liar and hold Him accountability for not protecting them. They were fed to the lions. God is not promising you won't be fed to the lions. Rather, He is promising overcomer believers will escape the hour of trial of the Tribulation. God is not promising Israel they won't have to go to war and fight or that they won't endure trials and tribulations even while in Goshen or in the wilderness.

Try to understand what I said and what Rev. 3.10 is saying very explicitly. In this verse God promises they shall escape the hour of trial. We know that many Christians have been martyred even the most spiritual Christians, God promised them if the keep the word of His patience and are prayerful and watchful they shall escape the hour of trail that is to come upon the whole world. They did indeed escape it even though they were martyred, because if they were NOT alive at the start of the Tribulation, God would have received them up if they were alive at that time in the next decade. Praise the Lord!

God never promised the Israelites as a nation they would be raptured either. Many in Israel were not even saved. But God did promise Christians they would escape the hour of trial at the end of this age - a nuclear holocaust - if they fulfill the condition; most Christians will be carnal Christians and shall not receive this reward. Consider this consequences for Christians. It is quite illogical to take a passage for Christians and then apply it back upon the Jews whom most were not even saved. You said Israel didn't suffer? Of course they did. They went into exile for 70 years. When the Hebrews were in in Egypt you certainly can't be applying Rev. 3.10 to them. How silly.

“The hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world” - This is the Great Tribulation. This verse tells us that a certain class of people may escape the Great Tribulation, even those who keep the word of the patience of Christ. Instantly it tears apart your arguments. Although Philadelphia represents the true church in the dispensation of Grace, it is nonetheless only one of the seven local churches in Asia at that time. Thus it shows that only a relatively small number of people (one seventh) may be raptured before the Tribulation. Furthermore, pre-tribulation rapture is not based purely on our being born again as children of God, but is dependent on one other condition, which is, our keeping the word of the patience of Christ. Do all believers today keep the word of the patience of Christ? Obviously not. It is therefore evident that not the whole body of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation. Others contend, however, that this passage of Scripture does not refer to pre-tribulation rapture, for it speaks of keeping - that God will “keep” them safely through the Great Tribulation: just as, for example, when an entire house is caught on fire, one room may be left untouched; or for example, when the land of Egypt came under the plague, the land of Goshen where the children of Israel dwelt in Egypt went unscathed (see Ex. 9.26, 10.23). Such an explanation is erroneous because (1) the “keeping” in view here is not a keeping through but a keeping from. In the Greek text, after the word “keep” in this verse there is the word ek which means “out of” (as in the word ekklesia which means “the called out ones”). Here, therefore, ek signifies a being kept out of the Tribulation. And (2) “Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial” (3.10a) - As we have seen, the trial which is to come upon the whole world is the Great Tribulation; but notice that it is not a keeping from the trial but a keeping from the hour of the trial, In order to be kept out of the hour of trial, we must leave the world. There are only two ways for God to keep us out: death and rapture. And hence part of the living will be raptured before the Tribulation.

 

[TOG]

To believe that God will do the same for us is to mock the martyrs in the 2nd century church period called Smyrna.

And your saying that He'll rapture us isn't?

The TOG​

 

[Partrib]

I have to disagree here. You speak of a first rapture and of necessity there must follow succeeding raptures at different times. There are some (The 24 elders of Rev 4:4, and four beasts of Rev 4:6 present with Christ before the tribulation, and the great multitude later coming out of tribulation that John is shown in Rev 7:14.

An elder is someone who takes an administrative role as do the eldest elders of the universe the archangels. The Church is never called the elders. There are elders of the Church but the Church itself is never called the Elders. The 24 elders are the 24 archangels. There is no rapture in Rev. 2 & 3 mentioned (church age) or Rev. 4 (picture of earth viewed from heaven) or Rev. 5 (recounting the cross), not even the 1st Seal, 2nd Seal, 3rd Seal, 4th Seal or 6th Seal. The angels and Elders take up the prayers of the saints. Christians don't take up their own prayers. I already made this point you failed to address...when I see you avoid such an important point, I know you are confused. Don't shut your mind down to this fact or pass over it. The first time we see the rapture is Rev. 7.9 "before the throne" in 3rd heaven. This takes place after the past 20 centuries in Rev. 6 concurrent with the Rev. 2 & 3 church age. Rev. 7.13,14 tells you that the Elders are not Christians since one of the elders is speaking to a member of the body of Christ John. That would be strange if John didn't know who a member of the body of Christ is. The highest angels take the authoritative lead of the archangels. You did not address either the fact that the Elders do not have their robes washed by the blood, but the saints do. Again, another indication the Elders can't be who you say they are praising themselves rather than the Elders praising the body of Christ. The flesh praises itself and does not give praise for the sake of others.

Does this say to you that the entire church is the bride?

The entire Church is the bride, and in Rev. 19 God breaks it down further indicating the overcomers out of the bride He now calls the woman who makes herself ready will go ahead of the rest of the body of Christ and receive the reward of reigning over the nations (Rev. 2.26,27) for 1000 years. She has made herself ready (Rev. 19.7). Most Christians do not. Many Christians though saved and can never lose eternal life (John 10.28) literally lie on a bed of fornication. This shall lose the reward. There is accountability and consequences for Christians, but it appears not to be the case in your antinomianism.

Where is the being kept from the temptation to come upon all the world if they have to go through the tribulation?

Who said anything about being kept from temptation? Jesus was tempted 40 days by Satan. All the saints have received temptation. How strange some group doesn't later on? Are you in a cult? Rev. 3.10 says kept from the hour of trial, not temptation, the hour or time period identified, and the only way to do that is to be raptured, for many saints have been martyred and will be martyred in the Tribulation. How strange it would be when God says you will escape the hour but then find oneself in the hour, unless it was conditional. To deny them as the martyred saints in the 2nd century thrown to the lions is to mock them and produce a false salvation in your heart. Pray on this as I pray for you. God is not giving you any special privilege not afforded to martyred saints the past 20 centuries in the 5th Seal. Edited

There seemed to be qualifications to retain their crown. This was the same as with Smyrna when told in Rev 2:10 be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Why are they known as Brethren in that case? Do they have a membership other than belonging to the Lord and being the church? 1 Cor 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Thanks again.

They need to retain the crown they already have, but none of the other churches had received it yet like Philadelphia had. Smyrna was like the other 5 churches... "I will give thee a crown" if...

People call them the Brethren to identify them as the Philadelphia as they insist on being called just Christians. It is hard for the world to just be called a Christian; they need their affiliations.

Don't say I of Apollos or I of Cephas; don't even say I of Christ. The Brethren held this position when none others did, nor do you, because you would identify them instead if misrepresenting them. You even accuse the Philadelphians because by so calling them you accuse the of claiming to be I of Apollos or I of Christ or I of Cehaps. Why the doublestandard?

Just realize whom you are rejecting the Philadephian church period, movement, people, Christians whom God has identified as the Brethren of 1832.

Edited

 

[Partrib]

And your saying that He'll rapture us isn't?

The TOG​

God is going to rapture all saints, even unbelievers, but not necessarily at the same time for we see a group that goes ahead of the Tribulation that is according to their readiness, righteousness of the saints (Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36, Matt. 24.40-42, Rev. 7.9) and a group that goes at the 7th trumpet (Rev. 11.15, 1 Cor. 15.23,50-52, 1 Thess. 4.14-18) according to completion that is according to the righteousness of Christ. And the unbelievers will be awoken 1000 years later, resurrected and raptured for Hell.

It is simple really, but the flesh dare not accept it.

 

[TOG]

God is going to rapture all saints, even unbelievers,

Are you implying that some saints are unbelievers? The words "saint" is derived from Latin, while the word "holy" is from Proto-Germanic, but they mean the same thing. Can someone who is an unbeliever be holy?

The TOG​

 

[reba]

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.



Added late Not necessarily directed at the last poster ...

 

[TOG]

Back to the original topic...

I used to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, but there was one passage I could never reconcile with that doctrine.

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. (Rev. 20:4-5 ESV)​

The event being described here happens after the great tribulation, and it is calle the first resurrection. If the dead in Christ rise during the Rapture, as people say they will, then it is a resurrection. But since the event in Rev. 20:4-5 is the first, then there is no room for either a mid-tribulation or pre-tribulation rapture.

The TOG​

 

[Eugene]

Back to the original topic...

I used to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, but there was one passage I could never reconcile with that doctrine.

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. (Rev. 20:4-5 ESV)​

The event being described here happens after the great tribulation, and it is calle the first resurrection. If the dead in Christ rise during the Rapture, as people say they will, then it is a resurrection. But since the event in Rev. 20:4-5 is the first, then there is no room for either a mid-tribulation or pre-tribulation rapture.

The TOG​

To me there are two resurrections; one of the dead and one of the living. Is the consummation of them a simultaneous event or in stages? I ask this due to John seeing different ones in heaven at different times and circumstances. E.g., in Rev 4:4 he see 24 elders round bout the throne, in Rev 4:6 four beasts in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne. This is indeed a very prominent place with Jesus as He take His own throne in Rev 4:2. Next we’re told of the great multitude shown before the throne in Rev 7:9. Later yet in Rev 14:1 there are 144,000 that arrive on mount Sion (the heavenly Jerusalem) and stand before the throne where Christ is, and the before the throne, and before the four beasts and the elders who were already there.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. We don’t all die at once and neither will we all be arriving there at the same time unless we’re alive when He comes for us.

My thoughts.

 

[TOG]

To me there are two resurrections; one of the dead and one of the living. Is the consummation of them a simultaneous event or in stages?

Even if there are two separate resurrections for the living and the dead (I believe there is only one), it doesn't change anything.

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,[a] that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (I Thess. 4:15-17 ESV)
​

If the event I pointed out in Rev. 20 is the first resurrection, then the dead in Christ couldn't have risen before then. And since the dead in Christ will rise before those that are alive are caught up, those that are alive at his coming couldn't have been raptured before the first resurrection. In other words, any resurrection / rapture, either of the living or the dead, can't happen before the end of the tribulation.

The TOG​

 

[Eugene]

Even if there are two separate resurrections for the living and the dead (I believe there is only one), it doesn't change anything.

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,[a] that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (I Thess. 4:15-17 ESV)
​

If the event I pointed out in Rev. 20 is the first resurrection, then the dead in Christ couldn't have risen before then. And since the dead in Christ will rise before those that are alive are caught up, those that are alive at his coming couldn't have been raptured before the first resurrection. In other words, any resurrection / rapture, either of the living or the dead, can't happen before the end of the tribulation.

The TOG​

Thanks and I do see what you’re saying now. I have to continue to believe that those present with Jesus in Revelation Chapter Four in the midst of and round about the throne are in heaven; that’s where the throne is, and they are there before the end of the tribulation, or in that fact before the tribulation even begins. At this point I will not even advance this past this point to show other appearances of our Lord coming in the air other than bringing forth the fact that any part of the resurrection must align with 1 Th 4:16-17. All that are caught up to heaven will be in the following manner.
1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John is shown different groups of the church and describes their separate appearances in heaven. With this in mind I don’t see our Lord limited to the amount of times He is allowed to receive His own. I’ve oft said that if there is a last trump, by implication there needs be other trumps.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[JCitoL]

Revelation 3.10 says "Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Who is on the earth before the Tribulation? Both Christians and non-Christians.....

the biblical expression "upon the whole world" in Revelation 3rd chapter means: "upon the whole system of (the) human religion/spirituality", while the expression "those that dwell on the earth" means: those who live by following/practising human religion/spirituality, and the "trial" is the spiritual/religious delusion

Blessings

 

[Partrib]

To me there are two resurrections; one of the dead and one of the living. Is the consummation of them a simultaneous event or in stages? I ask this due to John seeing different ones in heaven at different times and circumstances. E.g., in Rev 4:4 he see 24 elders round bout the throne, in Rev 4:6 four beasts in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne. This is indeed a very prominent place with Jesus as He take His own throne in Rev 4:2. Next we’re told of the great multitude shown before the throne in Rev 7:9. Later yet in Rev 14:1 there are 144,000 that arrive on mount Sion (the heavenly Jerusalem) and stand before the throne where Christ is, and the before the throne, and before the four beasts and the elders who were already there.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. We don’t all die at once and neither will we all be arriving there at the same time unless we’re alive when He comes for us.

My thoughts.

The 1st resurrection is the best one out of all those resurrected and raptured because those included in the 1st resurrection (it does not refer to when but whom) get to return with Christ and reign on earth for 1000 years before the new city and new earth commence.

Rev. 4 there is no rapture. It is a picture of earth from heaven, and there we see the 24 archangels close to God. Rev. 7.9 is the first instance of rapture before the throne.

 

[Partrib]

Thanks and I do see what you’re saying now. I have to continue to believe that those present with Jesus in Revelation Chapter Four in the midst of and round about the throne are in heaven; that’s where the throne is, and they are there before the end of the tribulation, or in that fact before the tribulation even begins. At this point I will not even advance this past this point to show other appearances of our Lord coming in the air other than bringing forth the fact that any part of the resurrection must align with 1 Th 4:16-17. All that are caught up to heaven will be in the following manner.
1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John is shown different groups of the church and describes their separate appearances in heaven. With this in mind I don’t see our Lord limited to the amount of times He is allowed to receive His own. I’ve oft said that if there is a last trump, by implication there needs be other trumps.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Those in Revelation 4 are not Christians for many reasons. Don't slight this. The Tribulation doesn't commence until the 7th Seal which opens up the 7 trumpets of the Tribulation starting at Rev. 8.7. There is no different groups of the church. How silly. There is One Church only. These are angels in Rev. 4 & 5 who take up the prayers of the saints. The saints don't take up their own prayers. How silly.

Revelation 4.1-4. Interpreters of this first school consider Revelation 2 and 3 as depicting the sage of the church; 4.1 as referring to the rapture of the church; 4.4 (with the 24 elders) as representing the glorified church after the rapture; and chapters 5 and 6 as having reference to the beginning of the Great Tribulation. But 4.1 is not spoken to the whole church. It is only spoken to John. “Come up hither” is an accomplished fact in the personal experience of John on the isle of Patmos. Otherwise, Philip’s experience as recorded in Acts 8.29 might also be taken as signifying the rapture of the whole church. As regards the 24 elders, it is rather absurd to deem them as signifying the glorified church, for the following reasons:

(1) 24 is not the number of the church; only seven or multiples of seven are, such as the seven churches in Asia.

(2) Nowhere in the Scriptures does “elder” ever represent the church. There are elders in the church and among the Jews, but not all believers are elders. God first created the angels, then He chose the Jews, and finally gave grace to the church. How can the church bear the title of elders?

(3) In Revelation 4 and 5 we learn that the elders sit on thrones with crowns of gold on their heads, whereas Christ is standing there. Can the church receive glory before Christ is glorified? Thrones and crowns are symbols of kingship.

(4) The elders are clothed with white garments. Some suggest that these garments speak of Christ our righteousness for His blood has washed them white. Yet nowhere in the Scriptures is there mention made that the garments of the elders are washed with the blood. Our robes need to be washed with blood because we have sinned; but the 24 elders have never sinned.

(5) The elders never experience redemption. In chapter 4 we observe that they sing the song of creation. And we see in chapter 5 that though they sing the song of redemption, they sing not of themselves but of men who are purchased by the blood of the Lamb. “And madest them to be . ... ,,(v.10) - The word “them” here refers to the church. Now if it is the church who sings, would she use “them”?

(6) Revelation 4 deals with the universe and not with the church, the nations, or the Jews. And hence we may say that these are the elders of the universe, The church is not an elder of the universe.

(7) Revelation 5.8. The church cannot bring people’s prayers to God.

(8) Revelation 7.13 If John also represents the church, it would then be the church asking the church.

(9) John calls one of the elders “My lord” (7.14), thus indicating that his position is lower than the elders. If the 24 elders represent the church, then John who is among the first in the church, should be the elder of the elders.

(10) The number 24 should be taken literally, not symbolically. Since one of the elders speaks to John, how can one twenty-fourth of the church talk to John? The number is fixed, and hence the elders are fixed. These 24 elders are archangels who rule the universe. Even under Satan in his domain there are principalities and authorities.