[_ Old Earth _] Creation and Evolution Presentation

[Rick W]

OK, now the word is methodology.
Do you consider electronics a science? A methodology?

 

[kevinmaynard]

OK, now the word is methodology.
Do you consider electronics a science? A methodology?

I don't know what you mean by now the word is methodology. Science has always been methodology. I am just trying to clarify a subject you seem to fundamentally miss understand.

I wouldn't call it either. It is a description of products mostly.

 

[Rick W]

So now it comes down to opinion of what constitutes a science based on one's views of methodology.

So data or conclusions not within said opinion and views is invalid. It's a judgment call.

 

[Rick W]

By the way,
I tell the engineers their profession is a description of products.

 

[jasoncran]

By the way,
I tell the engineers their profession is a description of products.

lol. evil engineers. the first engineer is satan.

 

[kevinmaynard]

So now it comes down to opinion of what constitutes a science based on one's views of methodology.

So data or conclusions not within said opinion and views is invalid. It's a judgment call.

Conclusions based on non scientific methodology are not based in science. That is correct.

What constitutes a science is quite easy to understand. Things like chemistry, biology, geology, physics and their sub fields. Things like astrology, aura reading are not.

 

[kevinmaynard]

By the way,
I tell the engineers their profession is a description of products.

You didn't say electronics engineers. You simply said electronics. An engineer uses information gained from scientific research, but their profession is equally based on mathematics and art. They create solutions to problems. Science is research. So engineering isn't really science.

 

[Rick W]

e·lec·tron·ics
1. (used with a sing. verb) The science and technology of electronic phenomena.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_6/chpt_1/1.html
Electronics is a science, and a very accessible science at that.

http://www.nrl.navy.mil/estd/
Electronics Science and Technology Division

http://www.unipune.ac.in/dept/science/electronic_science/
Welcome to Department of Electronic Science

http://www.cucas.edu.cn/HomePage/2010-04-28/page_746.shtml
Top 35 Chinese Universities in Electronics Science and Technology, 2010

http://www.caluniv.ac.in/academic/elec_sc.htm
Department of Electronic Science

http://www.amazon.com/The-Science-Electronics-Thomas-Floyd/dp/013087549X
The Science of Electronics

http://www.intl-jest.com/
Journal of Electronic Science and Technology

http://www3.ul.ie/courses/Electronics.php
Bachelor of Science in Electronics

http://www.du.ac.in/index.php?id=333
Electronics Science

 

[kevinmaynard]

e·lec·tron·ics
1. (used with a sing. verb) The science and technology of electronic phenomena.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_6/chpt_1/1.html
Electronics is a science, and a very accessible science at that.

http://www.nrl.navy.mil/estd/
Electronics Science and Technology Division

http://www.unipune.ac.in/dept/science/electronic_science/
Welcome to Department of Electronic Science

http://www.cucas.edu.cn/HomePage/2010-04-28/page_746.shtml
Top 35 Chinese Universities in Electronics Science and Technology, 2010

http://www.caluniv.ac.in/academic/elec_sc.htm
Department of Electronic Science

http://www.amazon.com/The-Science-Electronics-Thomas-Floyd/dp/013087549X
The Science of Electronics

http://www.intl-jest.com/
Journal of Electronic Science and Technology

http://www3.ul.ie/courses/Electronics.php
Bachelor of Science in Electronics

http://www.du.ac.in/index.php?id=333
Electronics Science

OK. I am still missing what the point is. So the study of electronic phenomena is done so with a scientific methodology. A cd player isn't science, but it is electronics.

 

[Rick W]

Umm,

Science is research.

Those engineers research other means of gas detection every day where I work. And we get "red folders"... projects to test that research. I for one am very instrumental in the construction of those projects.

We do research every day. Research might have played a role in development of the transistor don't you think?
Or research in any number of developments in electronics. Microchips didn't just happen without research.
To say science is research puts electronics right in there with any science you care to name.

 

[kevinmaynard]

Umm,

Those engineers research other means of gas detection every day where I work. And we get "red folders"... projects to test that research. I for one am very instrumental in the construction of those projects.

We do research every day. Research might have played a role in development of the transistor don't you think?
Or research in any number of developments in electronics. Microchips didn't just happen without research.
To say science is research puts electronics right in there with any science you care to name.

Ok. We are having a semantic impasse. I am using words in a more colloquial sense. An electrical engineer designs products that utilize electricity. A computer scientist engineer designs software and hardware. An important function of the profession is to design solutions to problems. It isn't a fundamental research profession.

I also, have a job at an oil company. We employ geologists and petroleum engineers. While some of the work they do overlaps they have different areas of expertise. When either does research they use a scientific methodology.

 

[Rick W]

But science is not limited simply to research. Nowhere does the definition of science include such a restrictive constraint.

 

[Barbarian]

Traditionally, "science" is the investigation of natural phenomena, and "engineering" is the application of such research to useful purposes. But there's a lot of blurring of the distinction in popular usage.

 

[kevinmaynard]

But science is not limited simply to research. Nowhere does the definition of science include such a restrictive constraint.

I think we are talking past each other. Here is what science is. It is a methodology. Hence the term scientific method.

I. The scientific method has four steps
1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.

2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation.

3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.

4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.

If the experiments bear out the hypothesis it may come to be regarded as a theory or law of nature (more on the concepts of hypothesis, model, theory and law below). If the experiments do not bear out the hypothesis, it must be rejected or modified. What is key in the description of the scientific method just given is the predictive power (the ability to get more out of the theory than you put in; see Barrow, 1991) of the hypothesis or theory, as tested by experiment. It is often said in science that theories can never be proved, only disproved. There is always the possibility that a new observation or a new experiment will conflict with a long-standing theory.

http://teacher.nsrl.rochester.edu/phy_labs/appendixe/appendixe.html

 

[Rick W]

Why is it so hard to accept that science gathers the data and the scientist makes the conclusions?

Science is not a thing. It's not an entity. Science is but using accepted humanistic methods to gather data. Science is only in the minds of men based on his intelligence, reasoning, logic and yes, emotion. It is all man. Science has it's very foundation in man. Science cannot exist without man.

 

[kevinmaynard]

Why is it so hard to accept that science gathers the data and the scientist makes the conclusions?

Science is not a thing. It's not an entity. Science is but using accepted humanistic methods to gather data. Science is only in the minds of men based on his intelligence, reasoning, logic and yes, emotion. It is all man. Science has it's very foundation in man. Science cannot exist without man.

Science is a methodology. A scientist both gathers the data and draws conclusions. Also, it goes with out saying that all human ideas can't exist with out humans.

 

[jasoncran]

since I talked to a mechanical enginner Monday, he said that all fields of engineering are the same for the most part and most of it does some of the research. didn't aeronautical engineering get us to the moon? after all there was plenty of trials and failures to get man in space and then to the moon and we still are doing this.

 

[kevinmaynard]

since I talked to a mechanical enginner Monday, he said that all fields of engineering are the same for the most part and most of it does some of the research. didn't aeronautical engineering get us to the moon? after all there was plenty of trials and failures to get man in space and then to the moon and we still are doing this.

Well they all take the same math classes and many of the same engineering classes, but they aren't all the same. Just like all Doctors go to medical school, but an gynecologist isn't the same as a brain surgeon. Engineering isn't a research profession by and large. Also, aeronautical engineering didn't get us to the moon. Many specialties working in concert got us to the moon.

 

[jasoncran]

yes but often and I know this to be a fact . I have met mechanical engineers working without going back to reschooled in civil engineering and vice versa. and other fields. the only ones I haven't met is the case.

I never said alone. really so a biologist build the rockets and designed them? or what field did that? a physicist? I live near nasa. theres plenty of schools here that teach aeronautical engineering. I used to do aikido with a professor in that field and while he was teaching he had to do research.ram rockets and other engines was often the subject of our discussion. that school taught all forms of engineering. it wasn't a state school.

 

[kevinmaynard]

yes but often and I know this to be a fact . I have met mechanical engineers working without going back to reschooled in civil engineering and vice versa. and other fields. the only ones I haven't met is the case.

I never said alone. really so a biologist build the rockets and designed them? or what field did that? a physicist? I live near nasa. theres plenty of schools here that teach aeronautical engineering. I used to do aikido with a professor in that field and while he was teaching he had to do research.ram rockets and other engines was often the subject of our discussion. that school taught all forms of engineering. it wasn't a state school.

I don't understand what you are saying.

Of course a biologist doesn't build rockets. I am saying the sub disciplines of engineering are much like the sub disciplines of medicine or teaching or any profession. Yes many parts overlap, but they aren't the same. An electrical engineer designs things electrical. A mechanical engineer designs things mechanical. Nasa usually doesn't hire petroleum engineers to build computer systems. They hire a computer science engineer.