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[_ Old Earth _] Creation vs. Evolution

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If it doesn't matter what we believe about this matter, then why are so many rushing to fight for evolution?

I personally believe that it is totally unscientific nonsense, and every line of investigation shows this ever more clearly.

The fossils have shot the theory in the foot. Molecular biochemistry treats it extremely badly. Genetics does the same despite the fanciful computer-generated 'phylogenies' which bear no resemblance to the actual facts, GIGO ruling OK on every front.

And the great study of instinct guillotines it completely.

If it doesn't matter what we believe, and there is so much science against the theory, why are you Christian people rushing to its defence so vigorously?
 
really, um the jews teach that was an insult by hem.how about he was drunk? he was drunk per this verse.
genesis 9


rather then coverup his dad he laughed and mocked him. my dad does some things of this nature. that DOESNT givreasonable and scientific things we are just beginning to see to be true.

that me an excuse to publically mock him.



That has been the genral kind of medieval rationale used by the church in general to try and make sense of this stuff which God, himself, thinks is so important to tell us that he placed the whole story inside his Written Word.


It is way more important to tell us all these things
Common sense would be useful here, in that God is shockingly reveal His uncanny foreknowledge of all these things we only now realize are true.
In the Middle Ages, we NEVER would have believed that we "flooded" Out-of-Africa with both Cromagnon man and Neanderthal man. We seem to have killed off Neanderthals, but here, we see that Modern man was already bias, picking on Noah because he wasn't as intelligent as we are.


The three initial Racial Stocks which then differentiated into the present Seven Genetic Racial definitions is opposed in discussions, today, because Race is a bad word.

To tell the scientific Truth (Christ, personified), is Politiclly Incorrect, since Hitler and the slavery in the last centuries.

But the chart I posted above shows that the Three (3) Racial Stocks from which our present seven (7) racial differences can be genetically demonstrated supports that God KNEW this, before we even thought about such stuff.

HE TOLD us, in the Bible, to demonstrate His foreknowledge of divinely revealed wisdom.
 
I'm not defending evolution, I'm merely pointing out that you're presenting a false and unnecessary choice in your arguments.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2
 
I would like to introduce you to observational science and historical science.
I'm familar.

Modern medicine is based on observational science, not historical science. So yes, a creationist can perform, engage, research and assist in observational science (modern medicine), and do it very well.
The theory of evolution is also based on observed science considering scientists can construct breading situations to reflect different pressures and see how the organisms react to said pressures.

The theory of evolution belongs in the historical science realm, as does Creation as observational science does not depend on historical science.
No, I don't think you understand. Factors of the the theory of Evolution can all be tested with observational science. We have tons of evidence of ring species that shows population mechanics in full swing. We have tons of evidence of Flys and bacteria that develop rapidly and genetically differ from their base line. We have mountains of genetic, humolugus, and fossil evidence.

To state that none of this is evidence will admit to me, that you wouldn't accept anything as evidence and a continued conversation would be a waste of time. Considering that Asyn did exactly as I predicted and launched directly into insults and posturing just as Hammer and Mark did yesterday when I didn't just shut up and join the herd. ;) Or when my post was deleted yesterday when I pointed out that Carbon dating a cast of a Dinosaur bone that no longer contained organic material is obviously not going to give you accurate results. Mainly because a Freshmen in geology or any of the basic sciences could explain why you don't use carbon 14 dating on dinosaur fossils. :)

Just thought I'd point out that strawman.
Its not a strawman. Considering that scientists can test all the factors of evolution.
 
If it doesn't matter what we believe about this matter, then why are so many rushing to fight for evolution?

Because it's a very foolish and harmful thing to add new doctrines to Christianity. It's not that you deny science; it's that you damage faith.

I personally believe that it is totally unscientific nonsense

That's the tough thing about reality; it doesn't care at all what you think.

The fossils have shot the theory in the foot. Molecular biochemistry treats it extremely badly. Genetics does the same despite the fanciful computer-generated 'phylogenies' which bear no resemblance to the actual facts, GIGO ruling OK on every front.

I know you want us to believe you, but the forum is littered with threads you started, and then abandoned as the facts accumulated against you.

But the fact remains that YE creationist is a great atheist-maker. And that is the real damage you do to God's purposes.
 
Meatballsub said:
Stovebolts said:
Modern medicine is based on observational science, not historical science. So yes, a creationist can perform, engage, research and assist in observational science (modern medicine), and do it very well.
The theory of evolution is also based on observed science considering scientists can construct breading situations to reflect different pressures and see how the organisms react to said pressures.

Let us be clear that as you rightly stated above, Evolution is a Theory.
From Dictionary.com
A proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.

You and others would tout Evolution as fact, when by your own admission it is simply a theory.

As far as it being a part of observable science, it simply is not because if it was, Evolution wouldn't have to constantly modify it's theory. Regardless, the oldest recorded writings we have are from about 5,500 years ago from the Sumerians and none of the writings have anything to do with the notion of Evolution so we see that we can only observe how things are now and make a hypothesis on how they used to be to support a particular theory.

Meatballsub said:
Stovebolts said:
The theory of evolution belongs in the historical science realm, as does Creation as observational science does not depend on historical science.
No, I don't think you understand. Factors of the the theory of Evolution can all be tested with observational science. We have tons of evidence of ring species that shows population mechanics in full swing. We have tons of evidence of Flys and bacteria that develop rapidly and genetically differ from their base line. We have mountains of genetic, humolugus, and fossil evidence.

I do understand. Actually I understand that Evolution depends on unsupported assumptions. Actually, even assumptions that have proven to be wrong. This is the very nature of Science. One postulates a position and based on the available facts, one creates a hypothesis to support a theory. One huge assumption is that the earth is 4.6 Billion years old. Facts don't bear this out, only Theory. Creationists can take the same facts that Evolutionist have available to support their theories as well.

You see, the facts are based on observable science. That's why they are facts. Nobody was around 10,000 years ago to record how things were.

Meatballsub said:
Stovebolts said:
Just thought I'd point out that strawman.
Its not a strawman. Considering that scientists can test all the factors of evolution.
Scientists can also test out all the factors of Creationism, so to dismiss Creationism by asserting that the theory of evolution falls under observable science is a strawman and simply isn't true.
 
What aspects that the theory of evolution has been based on, have been proven to be wrong?

Re: what is meant by a scientific theory, I emailed a scientist asking him this and I got the below response;

one never "proves" anything in science in the sense of 100% mathematical certainty. But one can get to a standard that might be described as "beyond a reasonable doubt". And other conclusions of science might be less certain than that. I think that is one of the hardest things for non-scientists to appreciate -- the spectrum of certainty of different scientific results. Some things are really beyond any reasonable doubt (like the vast age of the Earth, and common ancestry among species, and smoking causing cancer), others are pretty clear at maybe the 99% level but still maybe a little room for doubt (like global warming and HIV as the cause of AIDS), and others are more in the "best guess" category where the degree of certainty might be more like 50% (like some theories about the early stages of the development of life). So that word "theory" simply means somebody's proposed explanation for how something happens, how different things in nature fit together, etc. An equivalent word would be "hypothesis". Usually it would have its origin in some puzzle in nature where there is a gap in understanding, or some observed set of facts that hasn't been explained, or somebody looking at two separate things and looking for a connection. So a scientist would come up with a proposed explanation (maybe after a lot of work and false starts), and if it seems like it could be right it could be called a theory. Theories get tested (by, among other things, making new observations of nature and seeing if they are consistent with the theory) and maybe they seem to work and move closer to certainty (as has been the case with evolution as new genetic evidence has been studied, or the Big Bang theory with advances in astronomy), or maybe further study reveals that it is wrong (like the now-discredited theory that vaccines cause autism), or maybe it is not totally overthrown but just needs to be adjusted (like evolutionary theory today isn't really the same as in Darwin's day since it needed adjustments to account for genetics).

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2
 
Grazer,
Willared Libby is the founder of C-14 dating. He built his theory on several assumptions. First is the assumption that he earth has been at equal Librium for millions of years, and in fact the earth has not yet reached equal librium in accordance with Willard Libby's assertions.

Willard Libby, in one of his lectures also stated,

Willard Libby said:
At the time of death, however, the assimilation process stops abruptly. There is no longer any process by which the carbon-14 from the atmosphere can enter our bodies.

Yet we find C-14 in diamonds and we also find soft tissue in ancient fossils.

Barbarian said:
Stovebolts said:
When Mr. Willard Libby wrote his theory, he asserted his assumptions as indesputable, yet we have two instances that clearly show that the father of carbon dating was either wrong, or his assumptions were wrong. The assertion on uranium and thorium that modern scientists boast is as assertive as Mr. Willards, respectfully.
It can be demonstrated. Ionizing radiation, striking Nitrogen-14, can convert it to Carbon-14. No hypothesis there.

So we see that Barbarian has shown a way that C-14 can indeed be produced underground where Mr. Libby and the scientists of his day once asserted so strongly that it couldn't. What has not been observed is this process actually taking place in our current coal beds or diamond mines.

This also goes against the assumption that items that are being dated with C-14 and Radioactive Decay methodologies have been stable and uncontaminated for "millions of years". Without specific data from millions of years ago, scientists have to make certain assumptions.
 
Let us be clear that as you rightly stated above, Evolution is a Theory.
From Dictionary.com


A proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact..


How is idea of "Theory" any different in the discipline of Theology where different men have poroposed their insights and interpretation of Genesis as being a way they think explains what is written?????
 
How is idea of "Theory" any different in the discipline of Theology where different men have poroposed their insights and interpretation of Genesis as being a way they think explains what is written?????

As it pertains to the jist of my conversation:

Stovebolts said:
The theory of evolution belongs in the historical science realm, as does Creation as observational science does not depend on historical science.

Both evolution and creation are considered historical science and both run on a set of assumptions.
 
What aspects that the theory of evolution has been based on, have been proven to be wrong?

Re: what is meant by a scientific theory, I emailed a scientist asking him this and I got the below response;

one never "proves" anything in science in the sense of 100% mathematical certainty. But one can get to a standard that might be described as "beyond a reasonable doubt".


How is this any different from the many "theories" in Theology????

In that disipline we know there are a multitude of theological theories in regard to whart Genesis means, none of which can not be "proven," but only one of which parallels those theories in the discipline of Science, i.e.; TE.
 
How is this any different from the many "theories" in Theology????

In that disipline we know there are a multitude of theological theories in regard to whart Genesis means, none of which can not be "proven," but only one of which parallels those theories in the discipline of Science, i.e.; TE.

However, one thing is certain with the Genesis texts. It was NEVER written to support or refute evolution.

To argue the texts in a manner that puts the evolution \ creationist debate before it's primary intention is to use the text in a manner it was never intended. I would suggest that if anyone is reading the genesis text primarily though an evolutionary lens, then their theology will wander accordingly all the while missing the true essence of the text.
 
That has been the genral kind of medieval rationale used by the church in general to try and make sense of this stuff which God, himself, thinks is so important to tell us that he placed the whole story inside his Written Word.


It is way more important to tell us all these things
Common sense would be useful here, in that God is shockingly reveal His uncanny foreknowledge of all these things we only now realize are true.
In the Middle Ages, we NEVER would have believed that we "flooded" Out-of-Africa with both Cromagnon man and Neanderthal man. We seem to have killed off Neanderthals, but here, we see that Modern man was already bias, picking on Noah because he wasn't as intelligent as we are.


The three initial Racial Stocks which then differentiated into the present Seven Genetic Racial definitions is opposed in discussions, today, because Race is a bad word.

To tell the scientific Truth (Christ, personified), is Politiclly Incorrect, since Hitler and the slavery in the last centuries.

But the chart I posted above shows that the Three (3) Racial Stocks from which our present seven (7) racial differences can be genetically demonstrated supports that God KNEW this, before we even thought about such stuff.

HE TOLD us, in the Bible, to demonstrate His foreknowledge of divinely revealed wisdom.
medivial. ?
what if the toe is debunked? what then. jeff is correct . im not even pointing the book of genesis as a creation account from a science angle in this conversation , yes i have that bias but im stating what the bible says on clear exegesis.

taking your whacky exegesis to the logic conclusion that it must. theres no worldwide judgement. no judgement for americans or any outside the me. as that is where the flood occured, sorry no heaven for you , me and any that arent there in that local judgement. god is only redemming that land with its people. sorry. the jews then had a word of god. jesus being god talked to them on what they knew. the jews of today even know that and they admit it.

the jewish year is 5713. that calender is from moses by the ordainment of God
 
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However, one thing is certain with the Genesis texts. It was NEVER written to support or refute evolution.

To argue the texts in a manner that puts the evolution \ creationist debate before it's primary intention is to use the text in a manner it was never intended. I would suggest that if anyone is reading the genesis text primarily though an evolutionary lens, then their theology will wander accordingly all the while missing the true essence of the text.


True again.

The simple truth is that the church people began supporting their ancient Theological Theory about how to explain what Genesis meant.

That medieval way in which Genesis was explained to people is what came in conflict with Darwin.
They started a fight that was innecseaary and they won't stop though evolution doesn't conflict or challange what the Bible actually says.
 
True again.

The simple truth is that the church people began supporting their ancient Theological Theory about how to explain what Genesis meant.

That medieval way in which Genesis was explained to people is what came in conflict with Darwin.
They started a fight that was innecseaary and they won't stop though evolution doesn't conflict or challange what the Bible actually says.

The simple truth is that when the church did as you said, they had been totally dislocated from the source (Jewish and Historical sources). Of course they were going to come to wrong conclusions.
 
The simple truth is that when the church did as you said, they had been totally dislocated from the source (Jewish and Historical sources). Of course they were going to come to wrong conclusions.


I think Jerry Falwell compounded the whole matter with wha the called "Fundamentalism."


Essentially, the church supported reading Gnesis as if it was in conflict with Science, then insisted rhat Science was wrong because "God, in their opinion, said it, and that ended their interest in further discussion.

I pinned down a few Fundamentalists by pointing out that the 24 hour day was not "create" until the 4th duration. I asked how and why they stick to opposing Evolution when Genesis never says whether God used that process or ot.

Their answer was that further down the road, they would have to stone wall it anyway, because so many other things were hard to justify as far as science was concerned.
In other words, they intended to keep offering rather dumb interpretations that defied even commn sense.
They said that they would have to use the same responses to many other things, that the Bible said it was so, and tht is the end of discussion.

But they are wrong.
There is nothing that defies modern science in the Bible.
 
The first line defies modern science and it doesn't get much better from there.

Of course, the bible isn't a science book and the stories are not literally true, so it isn't relevant whether it defies science or not, except that you have claimed that it doesn't, which is certainly wrong.
 
Essentially, the church supported reading Gnesis as if it was in conflict with Science, then insisted rhat Science was wrong because "God, in their opinion, said it, and that ended their interest in further discussion.
The folks over at AIG and I agree that a literalistic reading of Genesis is not in conflict with Science.

I pinned down a few Fundamentalists by pointing out that the 24 hour day was not "create" until the 4th duration. I asked how and why they stick to opposing Evolution when Genesis never says whether God used that process or ot.

A day is marked by evening and morning, not by the earth revolving around the sun.

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Genesis 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Genesis 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Genesis 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

So we see with the plain reading of scriptures that evening and morning delineate a day.

Their answer was that further down the road, they would have to stone wall it anyway, because so many other things were hard to justify as far as science was concerned.
In other words, they intended to keep offering rather dumb interpretations that defied even commn sense.
They said that they would have to use the same responses to many other things, that the Bible said it was so, and tht is the end of discussion.

But they are wrong.
There is nothing that defies modern science in the Bible.
You are entitled to express your theory, but please, lets try to be courteous of one another.
 
and Im not doing that cupid. theres much both jeff and i could post on this forum on beersherit(the jewish name of the account from adam to joseph) it means in the beginning. things that are missed if one took it to support either. that is the point.

vah and the yud being one of them.
 
Let us be clear that as you rightly stated above, Evolution is a Theory.
From Dictionary.com
A proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
Yeah, there are facts, such as organisms adapt to their surroundings through various selection pressures, and the ones unable to adapt die off. Another fact is that new traits appear in populations and depending on either it being neutral or beneficial to the survival of the organism dictates whether or not it survives to procreate. Those are facts that the Theory of Evolution explains how they work.

You and others would tout Evolution as fact, when by your own admission it is simply a theory.
Here is the problem, you don't know what the theory of evolution is. You copy/pasting arguments from pages, but don't understand that the theory of Evolution is just the model that explains observed facts, facts that were recorded either independent of Darwin or before Darwin even penned his book. Many of which he cited.

As far as it being a part of observable science, it simply is not because if it was, Evolution wouldn't have to constantly modify it's theory.
You don't know how science works. Also, its not like the theory is reworked from the ground up. For most part its just been added to to better explain phenomenon that was not understood during the age of Darwin. Key point genetics. Darwin didn't know what genetics was, So when Mendel's work was better noted, it helped solidify Darwin's theory, because it explained how traits transferred to each generation, and how new ones are made. Most other changes where just clarifying different types of selection. Like Sexual selection, bottleneck effect, founder species, advisms, punctuated Equilibrium, etc. Have you ever looked at the theory of Gravity, or the HIggs particle? You want to talk about theories that change a lot? Check them out.

Regardless, the oldest recorded writings we have are from about 5,500 years ago from the Sumerians and none of the writings have anything to do with the notion of Evolution so we see that we can only observe how things are now and make a hypothesis on how they used to be to support a particular theory.
The Sumerians also didn't talk about gravity, Newtonian Mechanics, Particle Physics, Plate tectonics, Viruses, Heliocentric, The theory of relativity, Aerodynamics, etc. Citing the Sumerians ignorance of theories that didn't exist until thousands of years later means nothing.

I do understand. Actually I understand that Evolution depends on unsupported assumptions.
Then you don't know what the theory of evolution is. Plain and simple, because to make that claim you would have to say that organisms don't have offspring. That organisms complete in the wild and adapt to their surroundings. That organisms don't die off when they can't compete. that new traits don't appear in populations. That breeding can't produce different species. That Bears, Wolverines, Dongs, Wolves, Foxes, and Weasels all have canines, and are all share similar genetic information which is why some species of Dogs can breed with coyotes and wolves, and why racoons and bears share very similar physiology. Really none of this is real? This has all been tested. To say it hasn't is either outright lying or you are ignorant of the information.

Actually, even assumptions that have proven to be wrong.
Genetic drift has not been proven wrong. Heredity has not been proven wrong, natural selection hasn't been proven wrong, The existence of genes hasn't been proven wrong, population mechanics hasn't been proven wrong, Phylogeny hasn't been proven wrong, Punctuated equilibrium hasn't been proven wrong. Its funny how none these mechanics that are part of the theory of evolution have not been proven wrong. I bet you have a bag filled with stuff like piltdown man (which didn't fool any actual biologists), irreducible complexity (Which is usually just an argument from ignorance fallacy), and possibly a bunch of misquoted phrases meant to look like authorities are stuff they aren't. Anyone who has access to google scholar (everyone) can find the original works and see that most anti evolution quotes are taken out of context, such as Einstein, Darwin, Boyle, etc.
This is the very nature of Science. One postulates a position and based on the available facts, one creates a hypothesis to support a theory.
Yep, and that process has passed over 150 years ago. Minor changes to the theory has been done, but only when new evidence comes along. Such as punctuated equilibrium, genetics, and various selection pressures. The thing is you are not arguing against evolution, but theories that came after. Such as Human evolution, or theories that have nothing to do with Darwin's theory.

One huge assumption is that the earth is 4.6 Billion years old.
Which has nothing to do with the theory of evolution, and you have been told this over and over again.
Facts don't bear this out, only Theory.
Except for the 100+ years of study gone into refining our understanding of the age of the Earth.

Creationists can take the same facts that Evolutionist have available to support their theories as well.
The thing is, Creationism by itself isn't a theory, field of study, or law. Its a sub category of theological studies that relies on the Sciences to figure things out, then depending on your religion, the theories and laws are then filtered through the religious dogma to see if it fits. That is the peer review process of Creationism, does the data fit with the religion. If yes, its a creationist theory, if not its all bunk, even its supported by repeatable testing and weathers hundreds of years of attempts to prove it wrong. Its 2 completely differn't worlds.

You see, the facts are based on observable science. That's why they are facts. Nobody was around 10,000 years ago to record how things were.
Which is why the theory of evolution doesn't claim to know everything. Its a theory based on the information we do have. Just like every other theory in science.


Scientists can also test out all the factors of Creationism,
How about you go ahead and name these testable facts. Can you name the facts of creationism that have been tested and weathered peer review. To break it down even more, what is the creator theory? If its Philosophy, then we have left science and you misspoke.
so to dismiss Creationism by asserting that the theory of evolution falls under observable science is a strawman and simply isn't true.
This argument right here is a strawman because I never made any such claim. You are assuming I'm making such a claim and arguing from this false assumption. I'm quite open to the idea of there being a creator. I'm just not convinced by current apologetic that spend more time bashing evolution then actually constructing working theories.

Its like a film producer that spends more time claiming that all other film producers are horrible, but doesn't have his/her own name on that many films either. None that even got a theatrical release for over a couple of decades.
 

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