dead churches, church split...

[Jethro Bodine]

You are absolutely right Sandy. Usually, the men coming out of Bible Colleges these days are young and with no experience in standing up to the leadership of a church that they have been called too, just ends up to be pushed around by these leaders who are in charge of money coming in, and attendance. Unless this new preacher is convinced that Jesus has installed him in that church, he will buckle down to the desires of the leadership.

I used to be for the 'majority rules' kind of church structure. It seemed right that the congregation gets to vote for the pastor and elders they want over them, and the church budget, etc. But I know now that only God's anointed leaders should make those decisions. It serves a kind of self-validating way of identifying true ministry. For false, or just plain un-anointed leaders, by virtue of having no power, will simply fail to meet the needs of the true body of Christ and the true body will leave--which is what should happen. And if those in the church can't recognize and appreciate the godly good that true anointed leadership is doing (because they are of the world), they need to leave, which they probably will do.

This all comes back to the church being all about the pastor, the head elder, being in charge. Everything centers around him, not the church set up to minister the truth the pastor may, or may not, have. The pastor should be calling the shots on how deeply grounded he thinks he should be in a community, not the church itself. The way it is now, people decide if they're going to have a church, instead of the pastor, the one with the actual ministry, deciding where a church will be, if at all---the way it should be.

 

[Chopper]

I've been developing my understanding of churches, and being a pastor over the last several years.

Two things I've decided are true if you want to be a true, godly servant of God who does not compromise:

1) Don't become a pastor thinking that this is your career choice and how you'll get a piece of the American dream. Nothing wrong with having a skill that pays the mortgage and lets you have special things in your life, but because the true church of God is so small it's unreasonable to count on a person devoting themselves to this small group of God's real people, and having a million dollar budget church that pays a good salary, at the same time. It's not realistic for the pastor who wants to keep the body of Christ pure and keep the tares out.

2) Churches really are centered around the pastor who's leading it. I've resisted this notion for so many years, but am now convinced that God does not establish churches and then rotates men in and out of them to lead them. He gifts various men to minister his truth in power to his people. The anointing follows him, not the church building/ministry established to house him.

Simple observation proves this, but we just won't allow ourselves to believe it.

That's a good observation Jethro! I agree, not that you needed me to, lol. The rotating of pastor's really convicted me as I was reading your post because it's so true. I left a church that Jesus used me mightily, following the example of so many preachers. It was wrong! The example should be sticking with a call for life. Of course there is the other side where a man goes into a church without the Lord's leading and he is a terrible pastor of a church. Probably he should have been a missionary or some other vocation in the Christian field.

 

[Sandy Zalecki]

You are absolutely right Sandy. Usually, the men coming out of Bible Colleges these days are young and with no experience in standing up to the leadership of a church that they have been called too, just ends up to be pushed around by these leaders who are in charge of money coming in, and attendance. Unless this new preacher is convinced that Jesus has installed him in that church, he will buckle down to the desires of the leadership.

If on the other hand, since he knows Jesus installed him, he can stand up to the leadership and preach and lead the church the way Jesus is prompting him. The only problem with that is he will face a battle over who is in charge....I know because I've been there! I chose to lead the leadership instead of the leadership leading me. That is the what happens.

Yes, our past nearly lost his church a few years ago. He and his wife started the church and built it themselves. But they followed the old Baptist teaching and let the deacons take over the leadership of the church. A couple of them and an assistant pastor wanted to take over. Our pastor stood up and did not let that happen.

The first thing the Lord did when I was called to ministry is get me a job working with the mentally ill. You know it is from God when you get a call to work for someone who calls you for a job you didn't even apply for. I worked with them for three years. It was the most amazing lesson in human nature I have ever had. I definitely learned the difference between the works of the devil and the works of the Lord in that place. Then I got to go to Bible school. Then my husband and I started our own prison ministry. Working with ex-cons, drug addicts, and alcoholics gives you a different perspective into human nature. Now it is time to move on to our higher calling and that is revival of the Body of Christ.

I think more wanta be pastors should train like I did. They become seasoned that way before they lead to many people. They are not so young and inexperienced that way.

So few pastors do like you did and stand up to the leadership. But then we get into another aspect of the church. It isn't really the job of a pastor to stand up, it is the job of Apostles and prophets. But we don't recognize them anymore so the church is very weak.

 

[Sandy Zalecki]

...how common are these issues in Protestant churches? Also, how common do you think apostate churches are?

Very common!!

 

[Chopper]

Yes, our past nearly lost his church a few years ago. He and his wife started the church and built it themselves. But they followed the old Baptist teaching and let the deacons take over the leadership of the church. A couple of them and an assistant pastor wanted to take over. Our pastor stood up and did not let that happen.

The first thing the Lord did when I was called to ministry is get me a job working with the mentally ill. You know it is from God when you get a call to work for someone who calls you for a job you didn't even apply for. I worked with them for three years. It was the most amazing lesson in human nature I have ever had. I definitely learned the difference between the works of the devil and the works of the Lord in that place. Then I got to go to Bible school. Then my husband and I started our own prison ministry. Working with ex-cons, drug addicts, and alcoholics gives you a different perspective into human nature. Now it is time to move on to our higher calling and that is revival of the Body of Christ.

I think more wanta be pastors should train like I did. They become seasoned that way before they lead to many people. They are not so young and inexperienced that way.

So few pastors do like you did and stand up to the leadership. But then we get into another aspect of the church. It isn't really the job of a pastor to stand up, it is the job of Apostles and prophets. But we don't recognize them anymore so the church is very weak.

Right on Sandy. There are way to many reasons why a new pastor coming into an established church won't try and change the way the church has been functioning for years and years. Because pastors move from church to church every 5 to 7 years, the leadership of said church has to assume the leadership. So two things are wrong. 1. A pastor should stay at the church they are called to, not move. 2. Leaders don't give up the leadership to the new pastor.

In every Bible College, there should be a class on that very subject to advise men who are called to be a pastor. There is a new wave of teaching in our Baptist colleges, that those called to pastor a church should go out AND START ONE. Let those old sinful churches die off. In most cases, they won't change.

I learned the hard way. I sinned against the Lord by moving to three Baptist churches. I should have stayed at the second one. The first church was a student pastorate, but the second had my name all over it. The Lord forgave me because I did it out of ignorance.

 

[Sandy Zalecki]

Right on Sandy. There are way to many reasons why a new pastor coming into an established church won't try and change the way the church has been functioning for years and years. Because pastors move from church to church every 5 to 7 years, the leadership of said church has to assume the leadership. So two things are wrong. 1. A pastor should stay at the church they are called to, not move. 2. Leaders don't give up the leadership to the new pastor.

In every Bible College, there should be a class on that very subject to advise men who are called to be a pastor. There is a new wave of teaching in our Baptist colleges, that those called to pastor a church should go out AND START ONE. Let those old sinful churches die off. In most cases, they won't change.

I learned the hard way. I sinned against the Lord by moving to three Baptist churches. I should have stayed at the second one. The first church was a student pastorate, but the second had my name all over it. The Lord forgave me because I did it out of ignorance.

Thank God he forgives us for being human and making mistakes. Who planted churches in the New Testament? It was the Apostles. Then the prophets, who could be woman, came along and gave the church direction. Pastors are supposed to serve the church. They can be but are not necessarily the church leaders. Evangelists are there to get people saved and them give them to other church leaders to disciple and mature. Until we get that part right again, everything will continue to be messed up.

When it comes to Bible College, I agree we should have that training, but it should not be the thing that defines us. 1John 2:27 says, "But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him." The anointing of God should define us, not the Bible College.

I would say, yes, go plant churches but in the order God laid it out, by what the Lord has called you to do and what the anointing has taught you.

 

[Chopper]

Thank God he forgives us for being human and making mistakes. Who planted churches in the New Testament? It was the Apostles. Then the prophets, who could be woman, came along and gave the church direction. Pastors are supposed to serve the church. They can be but are not necessarily the church leaders. Evangelists are there to get people saved and them give them to other church leaders to disciple and mature. Until we get that part right again, everything will continue to be messed up.

When it comes to Bible College, I agree we should have that training, but it should not be the thing that defines us. 1John 2:27 says, "But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him." The anointing of God should define us, not the Bible College.

I would say, yes, go plant churches but in the order God laid it out, by what the Lord has called you to do and what the anointing has taught you.

That's right Sandy, looking back over 35 years of being Jesus' servant and shepherd, I have operated as an Apostle and an evangelist along with pastor/teacher. Because no one recognizes Apostle, I could not fulfill that office. Even though I have functioned as a Prophet, I could not claim that office because it would look like I was puffed up. It's a shame on the churches of today that they won't recognize these offices. Our churches are suffering because they never will attain to the fullness of the Christ because of it.

 

[Sandy Zalecki]

That's right Sandy, looking back over 35 years of being Jesus' servant and shepherd, I have operated as an Apostle and an evangelist along with pastor/teacher. Because no one recognizes Apostle, I could not fulfill that office. Even though I have functioned as a Prophet, I could not claim that office because it would look like I was puffed up. It's a shame on the churches of today that they won't recognize these offices. Our churches are suffering because they never will attain to the fullness of the Christ because of it.

Yes, it is very sad indeed for the Body of Christ.