Difficult Questions

[Goldwing]

Many christians believe as they were taught from childhood, that the ten commandments are good rules to follow, as all but the 4th were reinstated after being nailed to the cross, upon the death of Christ. This would include me.

However, there are some questions that many have never given serious thought to, such as:

I. If they were abolished, then how does one define sin/disobedience?
2. If they were abolished, then why do we need grace?
3. If they were abolished, then what evidence can we give to show we love God?

 

[Whatever]

Col_2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Only the record of debt was nailed to the cross. It would be like a judge tearing up your speeding ticket.

Rom 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Rom 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

If those commandments were done away with, so was love to neighbor.

But what was done away with were the Old Covenant ceremonial laws that had to do with the Aaronic (Levitical) Priesthood.

Heb_7:11 Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron?
Heb_7:12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

The law that was changed, was not the 10 commandments but the ceremonial (food, washings etc) laws under the Old priesthood.

 

[Goldwing]

If, I understand you, Whatever, you're saying the ten commands were never abolished as many believe, right?

 

[Whatever]

Yes, they were never abolished. The Old Covenant Levitical laws were done away with.

And yes, many Christians still believe that the 4th commandment still applies but was moved from the 7th day to the 1st to commemorate the resurrection.

The last Church I went to, the Pastor would not even read the news paper on Sunday.

 

[Goldwing]

So, I understand you to say, the ten command "were not" nail to the cross, therefore, are binding on all of mankind?

 

[Goldwing]

Yes, they were never abolished. The Old Covenant Levitical laws were done away with.

And yes, many Christians still believe that the 4th commandment still applies but was moved from the 7th day to the 1st to commemorate the resurrection.

The last Church I went to, the Pastor would not even read the news paper on Sunday.

What is your belief in regard to your second sentence?

Sorry, about asking the same question twice, but it was slow to show up on my screen when I opened the post.

 

[Whatever]

What is your belief in regard to your second sentence?

Christian even Christian academics differ over this. But it seems that as Jesus said, the Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around.

Mar_2:27 And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

From one commentator: "Man was not made for the sabbath as the rabbis seemed to think with all their petty rules about eating an egg laid on the sabbath." [end quote] I read from one Christian teacher who was raised Jewish, and he told about some of the ridiculous rules they had. If the battery in your hearing aid ran out on the sabbath, you were not to change it. You should have thought ahead.

Anyhow, we simply believe that God still wants us to have a day of putting aside all out worldly pursuits and concentrate on Him. From creation that was the 7th day because that was the day God rested.

After Jesus inaugurated the New Covenant:
Jer_31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
Luk_22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

We believe that it was now changed to the first day of the week to commemorate the resurrection. But not with all the stupid man made restrictions that the Rabbi's put in.

The word Sabbath derives from the verb sabat, meaning to stop, to cease, or to keep. It doesn't mean 7th. God simply chose the 7th day because of His resting on the 7th day. I believe in the New Covenant it was moved to the first day of the week to commemorate the resurrection.

 

[WIP]

Christian even Christian academics differ over this. But it seems that as Jesus said, the Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around.

Mar_2:27 And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

From one commentator: "Man was not made for the sabbath as the rabbis seemed to think with all their petty rules about eating an egg laid on the sabbath." [end quote] I read from one Christian teacher who was raised Jewish, and he told about some of the ridiculous rules they had. If the battery in your hearing aid ran out on the sabbath, you were not to change it. You should have thought ahead.

Anyhow, we simply believe that God still wants us to have a day of putting aside all out worldly pursuits and concentrate on Him. From creation that was the 7th day because that was the day God rested.

After Jesus inaugurated the New Covenant:
Jer_31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
Luk_22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

We believe that it was now changed to the first day of the week to commemorate the resurrection. But not with all the stupid man made restrictions that the Rabbi's put in.

The word Sabbath derives from the verb sabat, meaning to stop, to cease, or to keep. It doesn't mean 7th. God simply chose the 7th day because of His resting on the 7th day. I believe in the New Covenant it was moved to the first day of the week to commemorate the resurrection.

Was the Sabbath Day itself actually moved or did Jesus' fulfillment of the law render the Sabbath Day requirements complete or have we really just been ignoring the commandment to remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy or, as Scripture tells us, are we to be holy as God is holy every day by loving God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength and loving our neighbors as ourselves?

I'm not sure that our setting aside Sunday as a day for worship and fellowship really has anything to do with a Sabbath rest but is instead just a day we set aside to commemorate Christ's sacrifice and to set aside some special time for Christian worship and fellowship.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The moral law never was abolished.

 

[Goldwing]

The moral law never was abolished.

Mae, based on your answer, can I assume then, based on the three questions I posted in my OP, (see below) that:

1) the commandments remain because they define what sin/disobedience is?

2) We need God's grace/unmerited favor, because, in our fallen nature it is impossible for us to keep them at all times and for the right motives?

3) For without them we would not know the kind of love that God requires of us. Therefore, we recognize our need of Jesus, our savor, who fulfilled all that the law required, then shed His blood, to pay the penalty for our inability to pay the penalty for breaking the law, and yet life. This was required of the Father, in order for Christ righteousness to be credited to all who are willing to live by faith?

Please correct any of my assumptions.

I. If they were abolished, then how does one define sin/disobedience?
2. If they were abolished, then why do we need grace?
3. If they were abolished, then what evidence can we give to show we love God?

QuoteReply

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Mae, based on your answer, can I assume then, based on the three questions I posted in my OP, (see below) that:

1) the commandments remain because they define what sin/disobedience is?

Well, they remain because the moral law as to how we ought to behave towards others is morally right. We know that it is right because when someone violates one of them and we suffer, we see clearly it is right. Just have someone steal from your or try to murder you and you instantly know it is morally wrong. We do not need those commands in order to know what sin or disobedience is. We know when we are the victim because we are moral beings.

2) We need God's grace/unmerited favor, because, in our fallen nature it is impossible for us to keep them at all times and for the right motives?

You are knocking on the wrong door here. There is no description of an inborn fallen nature in the Bible. It is theological assumption starts with Augustine. It is not impossible to go your whole life and never murder. It is not impossible to go your whole life and refrain from stealing another person's stuff. It is not that difficult to honor your parents once you have reached adulthood. What else? Resting one day a week is not difficult if you put your mind to it. It is not difficult not to lie in court about someone else. I just do not see that
these 10 commandments are so difficult to keep. Loving others as you love yourself? That is difficult.

3) For without them we would not know the kind of love that God requires of us. Therefore, we recognize our need of Jesus, our savor, who fulfilled all that the law required, then shed His blood, to pay the penalty for our inability to pay the penalty for breaking the law, and yet life. This was required of the Father, in order for Christ righteousness to be credited to all who are willing to live by faith?

Hard to say. I think there are people who love each other to some degree, at least their spouses and children and parents without even knowing God's love. We are such creatures that we are able to love others. We just are also such selfish creatures that we do not do this often.

Please correct any of my assumptions.

I. If they were abolished, then how does one define sin/disobedience?

By doing to others as you would like to be done.

2. If they were abolished, then why do we need grace?

Because we are such selfish creatures that we do not do this often.

3. If they were abolished, then what evidence can we give to show we love God?

Obey what He tells you to do, same as with the commandments,

 

[Whatever]

You are knocking on the wrong door here. There is no description of an inborn fallen nature in the Bible.

There might be one.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.

Was the Sabbath Day itself actually moved or did Jesus' fulfillment of the law render the Sabbath Day requirements complete or have we really just been ignoring the commandment to remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy or, as Scripture tells us, are we to be holy as God is holy every day by loving God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength and loving our neighbors as ourselves?

That sounds okay to me. I'm not strict on Sundays. But it does bother me when I see young girls come to Church wearing shorts over their bathing suits and carrying a towel so that as soon as Church is over they can run to the swimming pool.

Or as soon as Church is over, the pastor and his kids heading for the amusement park.

 

[Goldwing]

Well, they remain because the moral law as to how we ought to behave towards others is morally right. We know that it is right because when someone violates one of them and we suffer, we see clearly it is right. Just have someone steal from your or try to murder you and you instantly know it is morally wrong. We do not need those commands in order to know what sin or disobedience is. We know when we are the victim because we are moral beings.

Your first sentence above is certainly true. Would you agree too, that they must remain because they are at the core of how God governs His universe?

In your second sentence your looking at it from the victims perspective only. However, often the thief, abuser or murderers have no moral compass. So how would these individual known what sin is without the ten commandments?

 

[Goldwing]

There is no description of an inborn fallen nature in the Bible. It is theological assumption starts with Augustine.

Mae: I would suggest you post your statement here on this platform, and see what the response would be. Are you up for that?

 

[Goldwing]

Christian even Christian academics differ over this. But it seems that as Jesus said, the Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around.

Mar_2:27 And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

From one commentator: "Man was not made for the sabbath as the rabbis seemed to think with all their petty rules about eating an egg laid on the sabbath." [end quote] I read from one Christian teacher who was raised Jewish, and he told about some of the ridiculous rules they had. If the battery in your hearing aid ran out on the sabbath, you were not to change it. You should have thought ahead.

Anyhow, we simply believe that God still wants us to have a day of putting aside all out worldly pursuits and concentrate on Him. From creation that was the 7th day because that was the day God rested.

After Jesus inaugurated the New Covenant:
Jer_31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
Luk_22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

We believe that it was now changed to the first day of the week to commemorate the resurrection. But not with all the stupid man made restrictions that the Rabbi's put in.

The word Sabbath derives from the verb sabat, meaning to stop, to cease, or to keep. It doesn't mean 7th. God simply chose the 7th day because of His resting on the 7th day. I believe in the New Covenant it was moved to the first day of the week to commemorate the resurrection.

Whatever, would like to address your last sentence. First let me say that as I understand the "New Covenant", and correct me if I have it wrong in full or partially. But under the new covenant, God redefines who the children of Abraham are, so that what He promised to Abraham will still be fulfilled. (Gal. 3:26-29) Too, as you know the ceremonial laws (those written by Moses) end at the cross.

However, I know of no place in the new testament where either the disciples or Christ (our example), ever mentioned moving the seventh day Sabbath to the first day of the week. This would indicate that there was no hint of a change in the day of observance through nearly the first century past the death of Christ.

I am aware however, how that change took place. Have you ever been curious enough to research how and when the change accured?

 

[Goldwing]

Was the Sabbath Day itself actually moved or did Jesus' fulfillment of the law render the Sabbath Day requirements complete or have we really just been ignoring the commandment to remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy or, as Scripture tells us, are we to be holy as God is holy every day by loving God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength and loving our neighbors as ourselves?

I'm not sure that our setting aside Sunday as a day for worship and fellowship really has anything to do with a Sabbath rest but is instead just a day we set aside to commemorate Christ's sacrifice and to set aside some special time for Christian worship and fellowship.

Wip, appreciate your response, as all responses allow readers insight into the minds of those who post.

Would like to address your first paragraph, which is a rather large question. As to part of the question, "was the Sabbath moved". Based on my research their is not one word from Christ, in the new testament that would prove that it was moved from the seventh day to the first day of the week. However, Paul in (Heb. 4:4-10) speaks to the contrary.

"did Jesus fulfillment of the law render the Sabbath day requirements complete." First let me say why it was that Jesus had to fulfill the ten commandments. They are perfect, holy, righteous, and eternal, which is why Jesus Himself wrote them on stone, and ordered them kept beneath the mercy seat in the Most Holy Place, in the temple, on which rested His Glory. What does that say? They cannot be abolished. Jesus, had to fulfill them because no human is able. But because He has, God the Father will credit His righteousness to all through faith.

Yes, most of Christians ignore the Sabbath, because there is lack of understanding, and they usually do not want to research it to any degree for fear that it could still be binding on mankind. It is much easier to go along to get along. That includes religious leaders as well. Such is the condition of fallen man.

Yes, the first commandment says, we are to love God with all our heart, mind, soul/life, and strength. But doesn't that require obedience motivated by love and faith? (John. 14:15)

No, Sunday worship is all about mans assumptions, contrary to the command of God. See, (Matt. 5:19; 15:9; Mk. 7:7)

The following is tough to hear, However, Jesus said, "think not that I have come to send peace... but a sword[word of truth]. (Matt. 10: 34-39)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Mae: I would suggest you post your statement here on this platform, and see what the response would be. Are you up for that?

Ah Goldwing, I laughed out loud. But what did I ever do to you to suggest such a thing? How much of me would be left after that? (hope you at least smiled.)

That’s the excuse the majority have for their sin and it’s so beautiful because it’s not their fault. They were born that way. They can even convince others to repent of their sin nature, something they aren’t responsible for. It’s how Augustine excused his deeply sinful past and so wrote it into theology.

I dropped it the day I decided to do a search for “sin nature” and got no hits. The term and concept is no where in the Bible. But “thems fightin’ words! I like my head where it is and not lying on the floor after the guillotine did it’s work.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Your first sentence above is certainly true. Would you agree too, that they must remain because they are at the core of how God governs His universe?

Absolutely. And which of us think that dropping “do not murder” and “do not steal” is good. Who wants to live where people feel free to do these things?

In your second sentence your looking at it from the victims perspective only. However, often the thief, abuser or murderers have no moral compass. So how would these individual known what sin is without the ten commandments?

Easy. When someone steals from them, they protest. If someone murders a beloved of theirs, they protest that it was wrong. As you judge so you will be judged.

CS Lewis said that at judgement day, all God needs to do is produce the recording of where the accused actually accused others of doing wrong to him…the same wrong they did themselves. Shows they knew it was wrong, not merely bad luck.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

There might be one.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.

Now please tell me if you have seen newborns speak words at all, let alone lies. What do they have to lie about? The interior decorating of their previous quarters? And what is measure of knowing a “wicked” newborn from a “good” newborn? That’s an insulting metaphor same as today some say, as an insult without any information, that people they don’t like were abused children.

That sounds okay to me. I'm not strict on Sundays. But it does bother me when I see young girls come to Church wearing shorts over their bathing suits and carrying a towel so that as soon as Church is over they can run to the swimming pool.

I guess it’s doing their Sunday duty.

Or as soon as Church is over, the pastor and his kids heading for the amusement park.

Well, that’s the example, then. How does the church know this, btw?

 

[Whatever]

Now please tell me if you have seen newborns speak words at all, let alone lies

God is allowed to use hyperbole to get a point across.

That’s an insulting metaphor

Well, it is Scripture speaking. I know a lot of people are insulted by what God says - "You are a sinner," "Jesus is the only way," and many others.

Well, that’s the example, then. How does the church know this, btw?

Because the Pastor talked about it the next Sunday. He apparently saw no problem leaving after Church to drive himself and his kids close to 100 miles to get to the amusement park.