dirtfarmer here

[Walpole]

hello Walpole, dirtfarmer here

When is the desired effect produced (efficacious)? It is my belief that the sin of the whole world was "put" on Jesus Christ and the only sin that is condemnatory is the sin of unbelief. In my studies I have found that once a person is
"saved" sin is no more imputed to their account, but Christ is making intercession for the believer when Satan accuses them. In his intercession for the believer before God Christ states that the believer is not guilty, but is a saint and fellow-heir. Justification as I understand it can be explained this way: " Just as if I had never sinned".

The piercing of the side of Christ in which blood and water gushed forth is a completely different study.

The desired effect of baptism is when it (the baptism) occurs. (cf. Acts 2:28) And once again, baptism is only efficacious because of Christ.


How does your position that Christians can no longer sin not contradict the words of Scripture. For example...

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." (1 John 1:8-10)

Here is St. Paul, writing to those you would call "the saved" (1 Cor 1:2) in Corinth...

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor 6:9-10)

Here is St. Paul again, this time writing to those you would call "the saved" (Gal 1:2) in Galatia...

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Gal 5:19-21)


It sounds like you think what Jesus did was give man license. However, the New Testament Scriptures I read are full of warnings to CHRISTIANS that...

a. There is such a thing as sin
b. If they (Christians) continue to sin, they cannot inherit the kingdom of God

 

[dirtfarmer]

The desired effect of baptism is when it (the baptism) occurs. (cf. Acts 2:28) And once again, baptism is only efficacious because of Christ.


How does your position that Christians can no longer sin not contradict the words of Scripture. For example...

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." (1 John 1:8-10)

Here is St. Paul, writing to those you would call "the saved" (1 Cor 1:2) in Corinth...

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor 6:9-10)

Here is St. Paul again, this time writing to those you would call "the saved" (Gal 1:2) in Galatia...

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Gal 5:19-21)


It sounds like you think what Jesus did was give man license. However, the New Testament Scriptures I read are full of warnings to CHRISTIANS that...

a. There is such a thing as sin
b. If they (Christians) continue to sin, they cannot inherit the kingdom of God

hello Walpole, dirtfarmer here

I didn't state that the believer never sins, but what I did say is that God does not see that sin because when he looks at the believer He sees them in Christ covered by the blood of Christ.

It is only those that are looking to sin that equates salvation as a license to sin. A saved person understands the love that God has for them and the condemnation they were under before they were saved with no relationship with God and no way for them to create a relationship with him. We didn't love God before salvation but were at enmity with him. He loved us even when we were unlovable and provided a path to the relationship that we have.

When a believer sins it is fellowship with the Father that is broken, not the relationship. It is when we confess( say the same as God does) that fellowship is restored.

A believer is not looking for a "license" to sin, but will occasionally be overtaken by faults. In your references to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 & Galatians 5:19-21 are works of those that are living in the flesh, never been saved. A saved person doesn't continually practice those things.

You cannot find any scripture that calls a believer a sinner, but believers are referred to as saints. As I have stated before we are saved from the power of sin and the penalty of sin, but, we have yet to be saved from the presence of sin. That will happen when we are resurrected at the rapture.

 

[Walpole]

hello Walpole, dirtfarmer here

I didn't state that the believer never sins, but what I did say is that God does not see that sin because when he looks at the believer He sees them in Christ covered by the blood of Christ.

So does God trick himself into not seeing man's sins? I don't quite follow your logic.

I'm sure you are aware of the numerous passages stating God will judge all men. Judgement would be unnecessary if God is not going to hold man accountable for his sins.

It is only those that are looking to sin that equates salvation as a license to sin. A saved person understands the love that God has for them and the condemnation they were under before they were saved with no relationship with God and no way for them to create a relationship with him. We didn't love God before salvation but were at enmity with him. He loved us even when we were unlovable and provided a path to the relationship that we have.

Most Christians I know who fall into sin are not looking to fall into sin. They simply gave in to temptation or put themselves in an occasion where sin became easy to fall into.

When a believer sins it is fellowship with the Father that is broken, not the relationship. It is when we confess( say the same as God does) that fellowship is restored.

You cannot have a relationship apart from fellowship (relations / communion). When you sever the fellowship, the relationship is broken.

A believer is not looking for a "license" to sin, but will occasionally be overtaken by faults. In your references to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 & Galatians 5:19-21 are works of those that are living in the flesh, never been saved. A saved person doesn't continually practice those things.

But St. Paul is explicit he is writing his warning to the church, that is, those whom you would call "the saved."

Here is how the Apostle opens his letter to the believers at Corinth...

"Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ..." (1 Cor 1:1-4)

And here is how he opens his letter to the believers at Galatia...

"Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." (Gal 1:1-5)

The Apostle would later go on to warn these believers that if they committed certain sins, they would not inherit the Kingdom of God.

You cannot find any scripture that calls a believer a sinner, but believers are referred to as saints. As I have stated before we are saved from the power of sin and the penalty of sin, but, we have yet to be saved from the presence of sin. That will happen when we are resurrected at the rapture.

St. Paul was a believer and a saint and he calls those whom Christ came to save "sinners" and even calls himself one...

"The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost." (1 Tim 1:15)

(Scripture also calls believers sinners in Gal 2:17 and James 4:8.)

 

[dirtfarmer]

So does God trick himself into not seeing man's sins? I don't quite follow your logic.

I'm sure you are aware of the numerous passages stating God will judge all men. Judgement would be unnecessary if God is not going to hold man accountable for his sins.



Most Christians I know who fall into sin are not looking to fall into sin. They simply gave in to temptation or put themselves in an occasion where sin became easy to fall into.



You cannot have a relationship apart from fellowship (relations / communion). When you sever the fellowship, the relationship is broken.



But St. Paul is explicit he is writing his warning to the church, that is, those whom you would call "the saved."

Here is how the Apostle opens his letter to the believers at Corinth...

"Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ..." (1 Cor 1:1-4)

And here is how he opens his letter to the believers at Galatia...

"Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." (Gal 1:1-5)

The Apostle would later go on to warn these believers that if they committed certain sins, they would not inherit the Kingdom of God.



St. Paul was a believer and a saint and he calls those whom Christ came to save "sinners" and even calls himself one...

"The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost." (1 Tim 1:15)

hello Walpole, dirtfarmer here

So, the blood of Christ only covered certain sin and not the sin of the whole world? The Power of God can be over ruled by man? Scripture states that we are kept by the power of God until the restitution of all things and that there is nothing that can separate us from God.

If you would do an indepth study of 1 Timothy 1:15 you will find that Paul is not calling himself a sinner but that he was the first to preach the gospel of grace. All others preached the gospel of the kingdom. 1 Corinthians 3:10 mentions that Paul was "a master builder" and laid the foundation of salvation by grace.

 

[Razeontherock]

As a moderator, interested in more than merely preserving Peace but furthering fruitful discussion, please let me point something out:

You cannot have a relationship apart from fellowship (relations / communion). When you sever the fellowship, the relationship is broken.

I understand this view. I also understand opposing viewpoints. Earlier this year, this exact topic nearly destroyed this website. I never opined on the matter then because it was a hostile environment, with lots of people not listening to each other.

This topic got labeled OSAS (once saved always saved) and was banned from discussion. Please notice I'm not saying it's still banned; just that I'm not aware of any official statement changing that status.

This discussion is pretty good! Lots to share, in the Spirit of fellowship. Lots to learn from one another, even if we don't change our beliefs. Can we avoid trying to assert whether we are, or are not, OSAS? At least until our site administrators have a chance to revisit this known hot button issue?

As a website community, we don't want to have to operate on a strict basis of rules or police activity, because we know that the letter of the law kills, while it is the Spirit that gives life. (And hallelujah for that!)

We have community guidelines and staff expectation messages that I think are pretty good, and well worth reading. We have Terms of Service (ToS) that staff isn't particularly happy with, and doesn't want to be tied down to trying to "enforce." Our ToS is (last I knew) a work in progress, that we hope to at least improve a lot even if we can't perfect it.

We want to build one another up, pursue the Unity of the Faith, and show the world we are Christians by our love. Can we do this? I think we can.

 

[WIP]

You cannot have a relationship apart from fellowship (relations / communion). When you sever the fellowship, the relationship is broken.

I'm not sure I follow this completely. An example that I have seen is the difference between our relationship with our parents vs fellowship. I am my father's son. That is my relationship with my father. Nothing I or he can do can change the fact that he is my father and I am his son. I choose, well chose since he passed in 1985, to have fellowship with my father and he with me. In this way fellowship can be broken but our father-son relationship is permanent.

 

[billybalke]

I'm not sure I follow this completely. An example that I have seen is the difference between our relationship with our parents vs fellowship. I am my father's son. That is my relationship with my father. Nothing I or he can do can change the fact that he is my father and I am his son. I choose, well chose since he passed in 1985, to have fellowship with my father and he with me. In this way fellowship can be broken but our father-son relationship is permanent.

A father may disown, or exclude him from inheritance.

 

[gr8grace3]

A father may disown, or exclude him from inheritance.

But a father cannot exclude him from being a son. No matter what that father does...........He is still a son. The father may make him least in the inheritance, but he is still a son.

 

[WIP]

A father may disown, or exclude him from inheritance.

That is true but he remains the child's father, just not from a secular legal perspective.

This brought another related thought to mind. What about adopted children? An adopted child is not truly the child of the adoptive parents but is still referred to as children of the adoptive parents. In Romans 8:14-17 (NKJV) we are identified as adopted children of God. Most other references including this one refers to us as children of God. Makes sense because an adopted child is referred to as a child of the parents.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

 

[billybalke]

That is true but he remains the child's father, just not from a secular legal perspective.

This brought another related thought to mind. What about adopted children? An adopted child is not truly the child of the adoptive parents but is still referred to as children of the adoptive parents. In Romans 8:14-17 (NKJV) we are identified as adopted children of God. Most other references including this one refers to us as children of God. Makes sense because an adopted child is referred to as a child of the parents.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

True, the father still is the father yet the fellowship is broken. I have 2 adopted sons in their fifties. Their father and mother both abandoned them. I took in a boy abandoned by natural parents, had been abandoned later by his adoptive parents--all fellowship broken.

 

[WIP]

True, the father still is the father yet the fellowship is broken. I have 2 adopted sons in their fifties. Their father and mother both abandoned them. I took in a boy abandoned by natural parents, had been abandoned later by his adoptive parents--all fellowship broken.

Yes, fellowship is broken but not relationship. The father and mother are still the father and mother. My thought regarding adopted children though is can the relationship be broken for them? Can an adoptive parent cease to be the parent of the child?

 

[Tessa]

Both my children are adopted. Nothing can cancel out the relationship of their natural patents. Even though we all feel like a natural famiiy, even though there is great love for each other and think of ourselves as a natural family the genes are not there
But I wonder if God thinks of them as 'our children'?

 

[billybalke]

Yes, fellowship is broken but not relationship. The father and mother are still the father and mother. My thought regarding adopted children though is can the relationship be broken for them? Can an adoptive parent cease to be the parent of the child?

I suppose so. The boy we took into our home had been given up by the natural parents. He was then adopted and later given up by the adoptive parents. We found him in a boys home in Texas.

 

[JLB]

hello StoveBolts, dirtfarmer here

When make the statement "who gets to be justified", that seems to imply works. No one "gets to be justified". Justification comes because of faith in Christ without works.

Everyone who hears the Gospel has faith.

That’s how faith comes, by hearing the Gospel message.

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

Do all who hear the Gospel get saved?

Which ones who hear and receive faith get saved?


JLB

 

[JLB]

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

Not being smart nor sarcastic, but, if you rightly divide the word of truth, you would apply it to whom it was written.
James 1:1, " James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ," now the next phrase tells us to whom it was written if we rightly divide and apply the word of truth. "to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." Is the Church part of the 12 tribes that are scattered abroad? No, the Church is the body of Christ made up of both Jew and Gentile that have been made a new creation in Christ Jesus.
James 1:2 " My brethren"
James 2:1 " My brethren" and several others places in this chapter
James 3:1 " My brethren"
Who was James? was he not an apostle to the Jews, hence, the "my brethren". Galatians 2:9, " And when James, Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars," These were appointed to be apostles to the circumcision(Jews).

In Acts 21 we find Paul at Jerusalem and " the brethren received" them gladly. How many Gentiles do you suppose were at the Church in Jerusalem?

James was an apostle to the "the brethren", the Jews, therefore if you apply scripture to whom it is written, there is no confusion.

James 2:24 is in reference to other believers. If God has to see our "works" to know that we are saved, then what happens to scripture that God looks on our heart and knows that we are saved?

James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad:
Greetings.
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.
James 1:1-3


So James a servant of Jesus Christ was teaching unsaved Jews about faith in Christ and enduring persecution?


My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. James 2:1



James was teaching the Church, believing Jews about their faith in Jesus Christ.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Amen. And those 'good' works are DIVINE good works. Not human good(which is evil in the sight of the Lord) works. And it takes bible doctrine, His mind and APPLYING it to produce these divine good works. If we are still at the starting gates and think works have something to do with our justification...........they are just human good/worthless,useless works/evil.

They way we are all saved is by obeying the Gospel.

Grace is the power to obey.

Grace enables us to do what we can not do without it.


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
1 Peter 1:22-23

• you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit

JLB

 

[Randy]

This can get confusing.
Start with what we were told by Jesus and Paul.
We are sanctified by faith in Jesus through the washing of rebirth by the Spirit of God who dwells in us.
If one remains in Jesus they will bear good fruit.
If one holds to the testimony of Jesus and keeps His commandments this shows one has come to "know" Jesus.
Love is the keyword.
Love one another is remaining in Jesus. God is Love.

Faith without love and works without love is nothing.

If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.


Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

 

[chessman]

you have purified your souls

through the Spirit

not of corruptible seed but incorruptible

which lives and abides forever

That’s a long time, forever, for a soul to remain incorruptible and pure!

 

[Walpole]

hello Walpole, dirtfarmer here

So, the blood of Christ only covered certain sin and not the sin of the whole world? The Power of God can be over ruled by man?

That is a belief of Calvinists. They call it "limited atonement". I do not believe this. I believe that Christ redeemed the world, as Scripture states...

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." (2 Cor 5:19)

Scripture states that we are kept by the power of God until the restitution of all things and that there is nothing that can separate us from God.

Sin separates us from God and St. Paul states that we can be separated and cut off...

"You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." (Gal 5:4)

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:22)

If you would do an indepth study of 1 Timothy 1:15 you will find that Paul is not calling himself a sinner but that he was the first to preach the gospel of grace. All others preached the gospel of the kingdom. 1 Corinthians 3:10 mentions that Paul was "a master builder" and laid the foundation of salvation by grace.

I'm not sure all the in-depth studying of 1 Timothy 1:15 will change the context of what the Apostle explicitly tells his young disciple, "The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, OF WHOM I AM THE FOREMOST." (1 Tim 1:15)

St. James also calls the faithful to whom he is writing, "sinners"...

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." (James 4:8)

 

[billybalke]

That is a belief of Calvinists. They call it "limited atonement". I do not believe this. I believe that Christ redeemed the world, as Scripture states...

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." (2 Cor 5:19)




Sin separates us from God and St. Paul states that we can be separated and cut off...

"You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." (Gal 5:4)

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:22)




I'm not sure all the in-depth studying of 1 Timothy 1:15 will change the context of what the Apostle explicitly tells his young disciple, "The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, OF WHOM I AM THE FOREMOST." (1 Tim 1:15)

St. James also calls the faithful to whom he is writing, "sinners"...

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." (James 4:8)

Amen and amen!!