dirtfarmer here

[stovebolts]

hello StoveBolts, dirtfarmer here

What was John told: You baptize with water but there is one that is greater than you and he will baptize with the Spirit. It is my belief that all water baptism does is gets a person wet.

I understand that most are going to disagree with that statement.

It all comes down to this: Does a person receive salvation the moment that the Spirit places them into the body of Christ? When does the Spirit place a person into the body of Christ? the moment they believe or the moment they are water baptized?

There is no room for discussion. Water baptism cannot place you into the body of Christ. It takes the baptism of the Spirit to place you into the body of Christ and that happens the moment that you believe that Christ died in your place.

I believe I understand what you are railing against, and please know that I do not ascribe to that groups belief. That being said, i believe i put a little more emphasis on baptism than you may. Let me explain.

You cited Eph 2:10 earlier highlighting the words walking in the way.

Faith and belief are synonymous in the sense that one acts on what they believe, and trust is a factor. If you believe something from somebody, you have to trust what the other has said or you wont act on it. Sometimes we trust what somebody says because we even saw them live out their belief by doing what they say. My Dad used to say, "talk is cheap, now walk the talk". James puts it this way, James 2:18
English Standard Version
But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Later, James talks about demons who believe in God, but they do not have faith in God, because they do not walk in Gods ways.

What I see in scripture is this. Jesus gave us an example of how to live our lives by what he did, and what he said. His words and actions were in harmony. If we believe in Jesus, we have to trust him enough to live into our faith, even if we dont fully understand the why.

At the beginning of Jesus ministry, he submitted himself to water baptism and in his parting words to his deciples, he commanded them to baptize, and teach in that order. In other words, he gives us an example of when baptism is to occur by his own baptism and then he commands us to baptize those new in the faith.

Again, it's about following Jesus so the question of trust - faith is this. Will you follow Jesus into the baptismal waters? Second is this, will we teach what Jesus said and did, or will we teach well crafted church doctrines based on arguments of what baptism isnt?

Roman's 6 gives us a beautiful picture of being buried WITH Christ and being raised new IN Christ. This is a work of God, not man the way I understand it. Peter tells us that Baptism saves by a clean concience, so we understand that our concience will bear witness to Gods work in us, and Baptism must not be looked as a dry regulation. Rather, it is an encounter with God which raises us to new life, a life we get to live our faith into.

 

[gr8grace3]

Give me an example of a Divine good work and a regular old work.

A divine Good work:
1. When we are not quenching the Spirit.

2. When we are not grieving the Spirit.

3. When we are filled with the Spirit.

4. When we are walking by means of the Spirit.

A regular old work:

1. when we are quenching the Spirit.
2. when we are grieving the Spirit.
3. when we are not filled with the Spirit.
4. when we are not walking by means of the Spirit.

Each one of these particular subjects needs to by studied and understood and applied........before the believer can do divine good. It's not the specific 'work' that is divine. It is the motive and means by which the work is done that is divine.

 

[Conqueror]

A divine Good work:
1. When we are not quenching the Spirit.

2. When we are not grieving the Spirit.

3. When we are filled with the Spirit.

4. When we are walking by means of the Spirit.

A regular old work:

1. when we are quenching the Spirit.
2. when we are grieving the Spirit.
3. when we are not filled with the Spirit.
4. when we are not walking by means of the Spirit.

Each one of these particular subjects needs to by studied and understood and applied........before the believer can do divine good. It's not the specific 'work' that is divine. It is the motive and means by which the work is done that is divine.

we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,
which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them (Eph 2:10).

That is according to the specific will of the Father for our lives.
The born-again will be rewarded for having done that will (Rev 22:12).

 

[stovebolts]

A divine Good work:
1. When we are not quenching the Spirit.

2. When we are not grieving the Spirit.

3. When we are filled with the Spirit.

4. When we are walking by means of the Spirit.

A regular old work:

1. when we are quenching the Spirit.
2. when we are grieving the Spirit.
3. when we are not filled with the Spirit.
4. when we are not walking by means of the Spirit.

Each one of these particular subjects needs to by studied and understood and applied........before the believer can do divine good. It's not the specific 'work' that is divine. It is the motive and means by which the work is done that is divine.

2 things,
1. Do you believe Galatians 5 can be used as guidance for the above outline you have given in regards to being "in" the spirit or not?
2. You say "we". We infers there is also a "them".
As it follows, who is "we" and what makes "we" different than "them" as it pertains to our current discussion of good works verses not good works.

 

[Conqueror]

It should be self explanatory to those who are justified by faith.
.

OK
You are unable to clarify what you mean.
No problem.

Are you justified by faith, after having sought Jesus as a priority? (Mat 6:33)


.

 

[gr8grace3]

2 things,
1. Do you believe Galatians 5 can be used as guidance for the above outline you have given in regards to being "in" the spirit or not?

Sure. Living the Christian way of life is line upon line,precept upon precept.......we have to get to know Him and His will for us.

2. You say "we". We infers there is also a "them".
As it follows, who is "we" and what makes "we" different than "them" as it pertains to our current discussion of good works verses not good works.

"We" as in believers. "them" would be unbelievers. Unbeliever's can only create human good. Which is dung/evil in Gods eyes. Believers can produce divine good or human good depending on their MO.

 

[gr8grace3]

we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,
which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them (Eph 2:10).

That is according to the specific will of the Father for our lives.
The born-again will be rewarded for having done that will (Rev 22:12).

And the operative word is 'should.' Maybe we will, maybe we won't. We have to know His plan and how to operate in that plan before we can even think about doing divine good.

It takes constant practice(study,study,study) to discern divine good and evil(human good.)
Heb 5:14~~
New International Version
But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

 

[Conqueror]

we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,
which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them (Eph 2:10).

That is according to the specific will of the Father for our lives.
The born-again will be rewarded for having done that will (Rev 22:12).

And the operative word is 'should.' Maybe we will, maybe we won't. We have to know His plan and how to operate in that plan before we can even think about doing divine good.

It takes constant practice(study,study,study) to discern divine good and evil(human good.)
Heb 5:14~~
New International Version
But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

The specific will of the Father isn't found by studying, but by listening.
That is a huge problem for most in Christendom,
who have no meaningful contact with the Father
through the indwelling Holy Spirit. (John 5:39-40).



.

 

[stovebolts]

Sure. Living the Christian way of life is line upon line,precept upon precept.......we have to get to know Him and His will for us.
"We" as in believers. "them" would be unbelievers. Unbeliever's can only create human good. Which is dung/evil in Gods eyes. Believers can produce divine good or human good depending on their MO.

So what your saying is this.
If a believer gives a hungry man food or a thirsty man a drink, it is considered divine good.
If an unbeliever gives a hungry man food or a thirsty man a drink, it is considered an evil act.

 

[gr8grace3]

So what your saying is this.
If a believer gives a hungry man food or a thirsty man a drink, it is considered divine good.
If an unbeliever gives a hungry man food or a thirsty man a drink, it is considered an evil act.

Nope.
If a believer is not quenching or grieving the Spirit. Is filled with the Spirit and is walking by means of the Spirit and gives to the poor it is divine Good.
If a believer is quenching or grieving the Spirit and is not filled and walking by means of the Spirit and gives to the poor. It's just plain ole human good. Or evil in Gods eyes.
It really is not the 'work' that is divine. It is the motive behind the work that is divine good.
Heb 5:14~~New American Standard Bible
But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.


An unbeliever is not born-again and indwelt by the Spirit. So all their righteous deeds are as filthy rags in Gods eyes. Only through the Spirit are deeds considered Divine Good. All other 'good' is evil in Gods eyes.
Isa64:6~~New American Standard Bible
For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

 

[gr8grace3]

The specific will of the Father isn't found by studying, but by listening.
That is a huge problem for most in Christendom,
who have no meaningful contact with the Father
through the indwelling Holy Spirit. (John 5:39-40).



.

Semantics. Studying His word is listening to Him.
John 1:1~~New American Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Heb 4:12~~New American Standard Bible
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Acts17:11~~New American Standard Bible
Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

 

[Jim Parker]

Are you justified by faith, after having sought Jesus as a priority? (Mat 6:33)

I asked for clarification.
In response, you asked a question.
That is not clarification.

 

[stovebolts]

Nope.
If a believer is not quenching or grieving the Spirit. Is filled with the Spirit and is walking by means of the Spirit and gives to the poor it is divine Good.
If a believer is quenching or grieving the Spirit and is not filled and walking by means of the Spirit and gives to the poor. It's just plain ole human good. Or evil in Gods eyes.
It really is not the 'work' that is divine. It is the motive behind the work that is divine good.
Heb 5:14~~New American Standard Bible
But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.


An unbeliever is not born-again and indwelt by the Spirit. So all their righteous deeds are as filthy rags in Gods eyes. Only through the Spirit are deeds considered Divine Good. All other 'good' is evil in Gods eyes.
Isa64:6~~New American Standard Bible
For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

So what your saying is this.
If a believer gives a hungry man food or a thirsty man a drink, it is considered divine good as long as the criteria in regard to the Spirit are met. If the criteria is not met, then their deeds are human / evil.
If an unbeliever gives a hungry man food or a thirsty man a drink, it is considered an human /evil act.

 

[Jim Parker]

The specific will of the Father isn't found by studying, but by listening. That is a huge problem for most in Christendom, who have no meaningful contact with the Father through the indwelling Holy Spirit. (John 5:39-40).

Most?
Have you personally conducted an investigation of a statistically significant sample of Christians and found that to be an accurate assessment at a 3 sigma level of reliability? (That would be about 670 Christians, by the way)

and:
What is an "Apostolic Canon Christian"?
Please give a specific definition.
What is an "Apostolic Canon"?
Please give a specific definition.

 

[Jim Parker]

So what your saying is this.
If a believer gives a hungry man food or a thirsty man a drink, it is considered divine good as long as the criteria in regard to the Spirit are met. If the criteria is not met, then their deeds are human / evil.
If an unbeliever gives a hungry man food or a thirsty man a drink, it is considered an human /evil act.

I would suggest that we ask the hungry man and the thirsty man.

 

[stovebolts]

I would suggest that we ask the hungry man and the thirsty man.

Well, this is where I was going...

Matthew 25:35-40 New International Version (NIV)
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

 

[gr8grace3]

So what your saying is this.
If a believer gives a hungry man food or a thirsty man a drink, it is considered divine good as long as the criteria in regard to the Spirit are met. If the criteria is not met, then their deeds are human / evil.
If an unbeliever gives a hungry man food or a thirsty man a drink, it is considered an human /evil act.

Exactly.

 

[stovebolts]

Exactly.

And what biblical example can you provide?

 

[gr8grace3]

And what biblical example can you provide?

You already posted some. I answered a lot of your questions, and your obviously struggling with these principles.

So let me ask this. What do you disagree with in these principles?

In order to walk in the works that God has prepared for us we MUST:

Not be grieving the Spirit.

Not be quenching the Spirit.

Be filled with the Spirit.

Walk by means of the Spirit.

This is His specific plan that we MUST follow in order to walk in the works He has prepared for us . This is how we live the Christian way of life ,this is our faith working........and satan try's his best to hide it from believers. Because this is how we advance in Gods plan.

 

[stovebolts]

You already posted some. I answered a lot of your questions, and your obviously struggling with these principles.

So let me ask this. What do you disagree with in these principles?

In order to walk in the works that God has prepared for us we MUST:

Not be grieving the Spirit.

Not be quenching the Spirit.

Be filled with the Spirit.

Walk by means of the Spirit.

This is His specific plan that we MUST follow in order to walk in the works He has prepared for us . This is how we live the Christian way of life ,this is our faith working........and satan try's his best to hide it from believers. Because this is how we advance in Gods plan.

Hi gr8grace3 ,
I find it odd that on one side of the coin you claim I am struggling to comprehend the principals you lay out while on the other side of the coin you affirm that I do indeed understand by your earlier reply, "Exactly".

You have answered my questions, and I thank you. Often we assume we understand another's perspective when in reality we dont. Instead, we seek an opportunity to speak, and not listen. I have tried hard to make sure I was listening correctly to what you have been saying, and you affirmed this with your reply, "Exactly". It was not until this point that I asked you for an example.

1. I want to make sure I understand you correctly.
2. I want to understand how you come to your conclusions.
3. I want to find common ground.

I agree that we do not want to quench or grieve the Holy Spirit in any way, and this is where we differ.

We want to follow Jesus and scripture commands it. ( 1 John 2:16 ). We want to obey the commandments of Jesus because we love Him ( John 14:15 ). When scripture says walking as Jesus walked, I take that to imitate Him where we can. We model our lives by His example the best we can because we love and trust Him, and we understand that he is truth, and all truth is His. John 14:6 which also includes the way of Jesus aka, walking as He walked.

As diciples, I believe we claim that truth wherever we find it. Paul claims truth by pagans and it is in our canon. (Acts 17:28 , 1 Cor 15:33 , Titus 1:12 ). We see that even Pagens understand Gods most elementary truths which I believe is why Paul is able to say what he says in Romans 1:18-32. In summary, these non believers understand Gods truth and Gods ways because God has made it plain to them. But many ignore these truths and their deeds are contrary to Gods ways and they bring hell upon themselves and those around them. But not all non believers respond to the truth that way. Many are receptive to Gods ways, and the truth resonates with them.

When I look at Galatians 5 in regard to the Spirit, I believe non believers can manifest these fruits as the Spirit draws non believers to repentance as outlined in 1 Cor 4:6 and Luke 8:15 among many others.

When you say that non believers are unable to do good works, and that any good work they do such as having compassion for another and doing something to relieve that suffering because they inwardly know it's the right thing because it is written in their heart ( Jer 31:31) then I see that as the Spirit moving in them, drawing them toward God. As Christian's, we merely point this out to them.

I am cautioned in scripture to be very careful not to blaspheme the holy spirit in a way that takes the work of the Spirit and ascribes it to Satan, or evil. Mark 3:28-30