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Discernment....
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farouk
Member
Handy:
Lizard ppl?
I agree about the deity of Christ being foundational. This is so important, and central to the Bible, too.
Tailgunner
Member
Handy, the things you mentioned above are exactly the sort of things that should make you part ways with someone's teachings or beliefs. Also, I'm not so sure they are quite as subjective as you may think. Scripture, for the most part, is quite clear and easy to understand without having to agonize over whether you're interpreting it wrongly.
However, some examples of things you may "agree to disagree" about without questioning another's faith or Christianity are things such as what's permitted on the Sabbath, or disagreement over what Paul meant when he said to "pray without ceasing", or whether Christ died for all or only for His own. These and many other things can be interpreted one way by one Christian, and another way by another Christian.
In other words, if it comes down to a matter of salvation or damnation to hold one belief or another, then that is not the time to politely disagree with them, it's time to part ways completely.
I hope this has helped.
TG
handy
Member
Reading through the thoughts on this thread and appreciating the input.
So, if I were making a check list of how to determine a false prophet, so far the list would be:
One could say that specific prayer methods are hardly salvation issues and one would be right...but, at what point do we draw the line? There is a Chrisitan church about a block from the one I attend that recently resurfaced a back parking lot and put in a "prayer labyrinth", a maze in which one prays while walking a "sacred path" including purgation on the inward journey, illumination in the center and union on the outward journey.
...man, just typing that makes my spidy senses crawl. No, not a salvation issue, but isn't this a wholly false approach to "going boldly to the throne of grace"?
More thoughts?
So, if I were making a check list of how to determine a false prophet, so far the list would be:
- What does he preach about who God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit is?
- What is his preaching on salvation issues?
- Does he believe in lizard people?
One could say that specific prayer methods are hardly salvation issues and one would be right...but, at what point do we draw the line? There is a Chrisitan church about a block from the one I attend that recently resurfaced a back parking lot and put in a "prayer labyrinth", a maze in which one prays while walking a "sacred path" including purgation on the inward journey, illumination in the center and union on the outward journey.
...man, just typing that makes my spidy senses crawl. No, not a salvation issue, but isn't this a wholly false approach to "going boldly to the throne of grace"?
More thoughts?
Mike
Member
In addition to what has been assembled here, flags go up when I see or read them portraying our Lord by misrepresenting His character. I've seen it said, "Discernment isn't knowing right from wrong. It's knowing right from almost right" When preachers start changing attributes of Christ that's where the flags go up. While they might not be salvation issues, they are part of a process designed to systematically strip Jesus of his Divinity. Let's face it. In our day and age, we have many people who have influenced by preachers who have painted a picture of Christ not found in scripture.
So, I'd say besides that true salvation issues, we need to have our guard up when preachers portray Jesus with a post-modern spin.
When the idea that THIS IS THE ONLY WAY 
: The ol, i am right and your going to hell if you don't agree, they shut me down NOW
<O
Every family will have struggles BUT if a pastors home life is
ALWAYS struggling look out. I would bet if it looks perfect, watch out. (timothy)
A pastor may say ABC in his youth and LMN in his mid life and XYZin his maturity.
This would not necessarily mean he is teaching falsely it could mean he is maturing
A goofy thought once in a while is acceptable but the BIG picture should be level...
He should not make himself the center of the church. Come forward in front of ME. I visited so and so.. The balance of leader ship and servitude is not easy to hold.
We are all capable of reading the Scripture to hold him accountable. For the local church go talk to the guy. For the TV world TV has an OFF button.
Teach anything other than the Cross for salvation your out!
Following the latist trends pushing the latest book...
The 1 scripture theology not a plan
Big AMEN Mike
: The ol, i am right and your going to hell if you don't agree, they shut me down NOW<O
Every family will have struggles BUT if a pastors home life is ALWAYS struggling look out. I would bet if it looks perfect, watch out. (timothy) A pastor may say ABC in his youth and LMN in his mid life and XYZin his maturity.
This would not necessarily mean he is teaching falsely it could mean he is maturing
A goofy thought once in a while is acceptable but the BIG picture should be level...
He should not make himself the center of the church. Come forward in front of ME. I visited so and so.. The balance of leader ship and servitude is not easy to hold.
We are all capable of reading the Scripture to hold him accountable. For the local church go talk to the guy. For the TV world TV has an OFF button.
Teach anything other than the Cross for salvation your out!
Following the latist trends pushing the latest book...
The 1 scripture theology not a plan
Big AMEN Mike
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Yes i am sure about drawing a line at the first false teaching.
If someone thinks my beliefs are incorrect they should do what i proposed, they should bring the Word Of God to me and show me where i am wrong. If i am not moved by their interpretation then they are free to draw a lone between them and me.
If i am teaching something that is wrong then Yes i am a false teacher. End of story.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
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Yes i am sure about drawing a line at the first false teaching.
If someone thinks my beliefs are incorrect they should do what i proposed, they should bring the Word Of God to me and show me where i am wrong. If i am not moved by their interpretation then they are free to draw a lone between them and me.
If i am teaching something that is wrong then Yes i am a false teacher. End of story.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
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Well that when we got to have decrement as to what is a core belief that we cannot accept any deviation from and what is a minor disputable matter.
Also most end time teachings that i have heard are for the most part conjectures as to how things may be or seem to be leading to. I have not seen many people stand up and say the end shall be this so sayeth the Lord...
Some end times teachings may have an effect on core beliefs of Christianity and therefore they may indeed be reason to draw a line. But then again we must trust in the Holy Spirit to give our conscience an alert when such a teaching is being given.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
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Well that when we got to have decrement as to what is a core belief that we cannot accept any deviation from and what is a minor disputable matter.
Also most end time teachings that i have heard are for the most part conjectures as to how things may be or seem to be leading to. I have not seen many people stand up and say the end shall be this so sayeth the Lord...
Some end times teachings may have an effect on core beliefs of Christianity and therefore they may indeed be reason to draw a line. But then again we must trust in the Holy Spirit to give our conscience an alert when such a teaching is being given.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Tailgunner
Member
Handy, I had only vaguely heard of David Icke before your post. I found a couple of videos of him online and watched them. True Christians who are firmly grounded in their faith won't pay any attention to nonsense such as this. As you mentioned in your previous post, this is one of those non-starters. If anyone starts with this nonsense, don't buy it. If you are unable to point out to them their error, just leave it and walk away.
Wrong, she didn't have "really good insights". What this was, was a sad example of what's happening in many "Christian" churches these days. They want so much not to offend, that they will include other ideas, belief systems, and so forth. Again, run, don't walk away from this. In the Christian faith, we preach Christ crucified and arisen, and faith in Him. Not cozy feel-good prayer methods, or special insights.
There is no "one size fits all" definition for when minor error becomes heresy. You're just going to have to stay in your Bible and prayer, Dora. Just try to look at it like this. If you and a known Christian disagree on something, but you can understand why he or she may think that way, and you somewhat see their point, then it's probably going to be fine. But if it sounds wrong, reads wrong, and you can find no support for it, or you find a specific warning against it in Scripture, best leave it alone.
TG
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Tailgunner
Member
How true. Good advice, Mike.
The Lord cautioned Israel not to marry the daughters of the nations because they would teach their ways to His children. Those who are called out are first justified and made righteous in the sight of God. They are sanctified and continue in the Light while leaving their old life and old path behind. When we consider the teachings of others (beyond specific religions) there are several beliefs that have been taught so well that they are household words.
What's wrong with the image of a sinner whose self thoughts are negative? Isn't this the correct view? Tolerance of fornication within the church is a paramount evil. There were only a couple laws (four?) taught to Gentiles in the book of Acts. We are not to drink blood, flee fornication, stay away from the pollutions of idols, and things strangled. Our beliefs have changed. Idol worship, the putting of anything before God, is seldom thought of --we don't kneel before wooden statues how can our hearts be said to be involved in the worship of idols??? The teachings of men have crept into our beliefs and teachings. But that's not all.
Handy has said, "I stop listening if someone states that Jesus isn't God. I know that there are some who claim to be Christian that deny the deity of Christ, but the definition of a Christian is someone who believes in Christ and if they don't believe in Christ as the Bible teaches Him to be (and the Scriptures clearly teach that Jesus is God) then they are not a true believer." Can we consider this? The issue that the bible teaches as the fulcrum, the pivotal point is balanced on the teaching that Christ came in the flesh. That He was fully man and tempted like we are. Some have made Jesus into a GOD-MAN to the extent that he isn't flesh. I'm not trying to deny that our Lord was and is with the Father, is the logos word of God as John, the Beloved declared so clearly. Not taking issue with the fact that his disciples came to understand that he spoke the truth when he said, "Have I been with you so long and you don't yet understand that he who has seen me has seen the Father." But that isn't the salient point that was made when warning about false teachers. What was emphasized was the teaching that He came in the flesh. We will do well to keep the emphasis where the Spirit of God placed it.
Let me say though that there are aspects to this that I don't fully understand and I do appreciate the discussion here with my brothers and sisters. Handy, pardon me, please, for focusing my final comment on your one post, but it was a point of contrast that caught my attention, not a point of disagreement. His followers didn't always understand that He and the Father are one but it was revealed to them as they continued. Without Jesus having become our interpretation of who God is - without him fully manifesting the true loving nature of our Father we would still be stuck in the "Big Bad God Dad" belief and trying to please Him through works. Jesus came in the flesh to show flesh the things of the Spirit that only He knew and only He could experience.
Knowledge is different than information and data because we have to apply the information and data to our lives experientially in order to be able to say we know it. The promise of the Father, that we will know even as we are known includes experience and Jesus was the only flesh who could apply what was being taught --sin prevents all others, none could know the mind of God because they could not exemplify and apply holiness, could not see past the veil.
Cordially,
~Sparrow
Need to run to college now... back later.
- I'm okay, you're okay
- God doesn't care about a piece of paper (marriage)
- Why buy the cow when the milk is free
- Negative self-image
- Seed-faith giving, you have to buy the favor of God by giving to me, me, me.
What's wrong with the image of a sinner whose self thoughts are negative? Isn't this the correct view? Tolerance of fornication within the church is a paramount evil. There were only a couple laws (four?) taught to Gentiles in the book of Acts. We are not to drink blood, flee fornication, stay away from the pollutions of idols, and things strangled. Our beliefs have changed. Idol worship, the putting of anything before God, is seldom thought of --we don't kneel before wooden statues how can our hearts be said to be involved in the worship of idols??? The teachings of men have crept into our beliefs and teachings. But that's not all.
Handy has said, "I stop listening if someone states that Jesus isn't God. I know that there are some who claim to be Christian that deny the deity of Christ, but the definition of a Christian is someone who believes in Christ and if they don't believe in Christ as the Bible teaches Him to be (and the Scriptures clearly teach that Jesus is God) then they are not a true believer." Can we consider this? The issue that the bible teaches as the fulcrum, the pivotal point is balanced on the teaching that Christ came in the flesh. That He was fully man and tempted like we are. Some have made Jesus into a GOD-MAN to the extent that he isn't flesh. I'm not trying to deny that our Lord was and is with the Father, is the logos word of God as John, the Beloved declared so clearly. Not taking issue with the fact that his disciples came to understand that he spoke the truth when he said, "Have I been with you so long and you don't yet understand that he who has seen me has seen the Father." But that isn't the salient point that was made when warning about false teachers. What was emphasized was the teaching that He came in the flesh. We will do well to keep the emphasis where the Spirit of God placed it.
Let me say though that there are aspects to this that I don't fully understand and I do appreciate the discussion here with my brothers and sisters. Handy, pardon me, please, for focusing my final comment on your one post, but it was a point of contrast that caught my attention, not a point of disagreement. His followers didn't always understand that He and the Father are one but it was revealed to them as they continued. Without Jesus having become our interpretation of who God is - without him fully manifesting the true loving nature of our Father we would still be stuck in the "Big Bad God Dad" belief and trying to please Him through works. Jesus came in the flesh to show flesh the things of the Spirit that only He knew and only He could experience.
Knowledge is different than information and data because we have to apply the information and data to our lives experientially in order to be able to say we know it. The promise of the Father, that we will know even as we are known includes experience and Jesus was the only flesh who could apply what was being taught --sin prevents all others, none could know the mind of God because they could not exemplify and apply holiness, could not see past the veil.
Cordially,
~Sparrow
Need to run to college now... back later.
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TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
I firmly believe that the best way to 'combat' false doctrine and the teachers of it is to have an understanding and knowledge of the truth. We are to know the truth, (John 8:32) according to our Lord. Once we know the truth, we can discern what is and what is not correct much better. As I've said before, those who specialize in counterfit money do not study all the different counterfits, what they do is become so familiar with the real money that when they are presented with anything that's not real, they know it isn't.
It's late at night and I'm at home after a long day at school. "Long Day" doesn't describe it but it's the best that I can come up with at the moment. Let me try (and I'll get to the point about discernment, I promise...)
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH [INSERT BORING BUT CONVINCING STORY HERE]
[All the juicy details about Sparrow have been deleted]
[I wish I could read the long, boring, but convincing story, it sounds like he's trying to say he's having mental problems]
[Yep, he's losing it, all right.]
ed! [I can't believe he admitted it]
.
.
.
.
.
Now, as promised: Discernment.
The above was just to properly set the stage. Because of what I have experienced today (cut out to protect my privacy) and due to the fact that I have no earthly explanation for it whatsoever, I am now in the position to wonder: If I am honest with everybody and open and do not edit things in any way - will I be committed against my will to be psychologically evaluated in the near future?
So, if the answer is no, Sparrow --aside from your calling yourself with a birdname, you're reacting normally to a stressful event, perhaps you've failed to understand the impact of what I tried to say. There IS opportunity here for the enemy to maneuver in my life (due to sin) and I know that HE is not above that kind of thing. Okay, do I sound paranoid enough to you yet? If I sound crazy even a little to you (and remember I've edited this -- so you have to trust me, I have had a very strange and inexplicable experience recently) then... how much magnified will that be to a stranger who doesn't love me or at least have the benefit of reading more than 1,000 prior posts?
Let's compromise then - and downgrade the consequence, so that I'm not committed to the nearest insane asylum but instead I go to the college counselor, Margaret. Let's further stipulate that before she and I can establish sufficient trust for me to speak to her according to the level of intimacy I need, like I were speaking to a Christian - and able to freely confess my heart and explain my situation, I would need some evidence.
What kind of evidence you say?
Well, that's where discernment comes in.
What one question could I ask a counselor (certified by the state and able to practice) to then be able to discern if she were Christian in truth or not. I could ask, "Do you love Jesus?" and be quiet in my heart about it and trust the Spirit of God to reveal to me if she is saying the truth or not, right?
But then an idea occurs to me (as I consider what question). I could change the query slightly and say, "Did Jesus come in the flesh?"
When she tries to object, by pretending that she doesn't know what I mean, I could simply remain quiet in my heart and explain, "You know, was he born into flesh, just like us?"
I can not imagine the answer that might be given...
It's never been done before (as far as I know).
Have you or anyone you've known ever asked a perfect stranger, "Was Jesus born in the flesh?"
Okay, I've done the impossible on the CF.net forum - weeded out all but the Christians - no offense but if you're not born again and still reading, What are you doing here? There's nothing to mock going on - just some old dude being straight with his friends... so then - to the Christians who remain, when later you're on your bed and praying, just ask the Lord to tell you what He means about "Jesus came in the flesh". I know it doesn't sound like a right proper method for discerning anything to our natural minds... but your Father will tell you what He meant, sweet one. He will.
God bless you, I love you,
~Sparrow
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH [INSERT BORING BUT CONVINCING STORY HERE]
[All the juicy details about Sparrow have been deleted]
[I wish I could read the long, boring, but convincing story, it sounds like he's trying to say he's having mental problems]
[Yep, he's losing it, all right.]
ed! [I can't believe he admitted it].
.
.
.
.
Now, as promised: Discernment.
The above was just to properly set the stage. Because of what I have experienced today (cut out to protect my privacy) and due to the fact that I have no earthly explanation for it whatsoever, I am now in the position to wonder: If I am honest with everybody and open and do not edit things in any way - will I be committed against my will to be psychologically evaluated in the near future?
So, if the answer is no, Sparrow --aside from your calling yourself with a birdname, you're reacting normally to a stressful event, perhaps you've failed to understand the impact of what I tried to say. There IS opportunity here for the enemy to maneuver in my life (due to sin) and I know that HE is not above that kind of thing. Okay, do I sound paranoid enough to you yet? If I sound crazy even a little to you (and remember I've edited this -- so you have to trust me, I have had a very strange and inexplicable experience recently) then... how much magnified will that be to a stranger who doesn't love me or at least have the benefit of reading more than 1,000 prior posts?
Let's compromise then - and downgrade the consequence, so that I'm not committed to the nearest insane asylum but instead I go to the college counselor, Margaret. Let's further stipulate that before she and I can establish sufficient trust for me to speak to her according to the level of intimacy I need, like I were speaking to a Christian - and able to freely confess my heart and explain my situation, I would need some evidence.
What kind of evidence you say?
Well, that's where discernment comes in.
What one question could I ask a counselor (certified by the state and able to practice) to then be able to discern if she were Christian in truth or not. I could ask, "Do you love Jesus?" and be quiet in my heart about it and trust the Spirit of God to reveal to me if she is saying the truth or not, right?
But then an idea occurs to me (as I consider what question). I could change the query slightly and say, "Did Jesus come in the flesh?"
When she tries to object, by pretending that she doesn't know what I mean, I could simply remain quiet in my heart and explain, "You know, was he born into flesh, just like us?"
I can not imagine the answer that might be given...
It's never been done before (as far as I know).
Have you or anyone you've known ever asked a perfect stranger, "Was Jesus born in the flesh?"
Okay, I've done the impossible on the CF.net forum - weeded out all but the Christians - no offense but if you're not born again and still reading, What are you doing here? There's nothing to mock going on - just some old dude being straight with his friends... so then - to the Christians who remain, when later you're on your bed and praying, just ask the Lord to tell you what He means about "Jesus came in the flesh". I know it doesn't sound like a right proper method for discerning anything to our natural minds... but your Father will tell you what He meant, sweet one. He will.
God bless you, I love you,
~Sparrow
E
Elijah674
Guest
Your Spiritual Discernment is number one on the agenda after Rom. 8:1 is a fact as I see it to. Why would anyone want to study satans Jer. 17:5 garbage where no two even hardly agree on anything that you are Believing???? So if that is me, I see a real problem with 'my' decernment!
That is where it all started from, Eve in the Garden of Eden even still being without sin!--Elijah
E
Elijah674
Guest
How is our discernment??
God says that our ways are not His ways!??? So, who are the worse in Matt. 10:15 as far as God Documents?? Think of S.&G. in that verse, & then these of Christ's Isa. 5 Virgin Vineyard here. That is quite a contrast! Yet, that is Gospel Truth, right??
Another! These ALL are LOST in Rev. 17:1-5 & called the abomination of the earth! Do you think that 'we' teach this for Truth?? And why are they (us??) such?? And 'our' DISCERNMENT??
Another! The Rev. 3:16 ones are stated as the Last of the 7 Virgin Church's. We find NO fault with their Virgin Doctrines mentioned, but only with their LOVE FOR CHRIST being LUKEWARM. A perfect Church in Doctrine, yet, the problem is the same as is Prophesied in Isa. 5:3 with the love for church doctrine [above] the Christ of His Doctrine!(Read John 12:42-43 and take note that 'Many Believed ON HIM.')
And also take note of Matt. 23:15 for our 'Discernment?? '.. for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte (convert), and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourself.'
And our discernment?? How do we do 'discern that above??? These were tithe payers, these were Sabbath keepers, these were educated, these ones had a beautiful Sanctuary, they ate no unclean foods, they were of excellent health, + they were members of Christ's ex/Virgin Sanctuary! (Matt. 23:38 + Rev. 2:5)
Yet, Inspiration Documents that we do not DISCERN as does God! Luke 12:47-48 teaches a Very Hot Obadiah 1:16 hell, + whom it is that God Documents will burn the longest because of their lack of Loving Obedient Discernment!
One might study Jonah for his acknowledged DISCERNMENT? Try Jonah 1:12-15 for what lay's ahead for us. Matt. 24:21
--Elijah
God says that our ways are not His ways!??? So, who are the worse in Matt. 10:15 as far as God Documents?? Think of S.&G. in that verse, & then these of Christ's Isa. 5 Virgin Vineyard here. That is quite a contrast! Yet, that is Gospel Truth, right??
Another! These ALL are LOST in Rev. 17:1-5 & called the abomination of the earth! Do you think that 'we' teach this for Truth?? And why are they (us??) such?? And 'our' DISCERNMENT??
Another! The Rev. 3:16 ones are stated as the Last of the 7 Virgin Church's. We find NO fault with their Virgin Doctrines mentioned, but only with their LOVE FOR CHRIST being LUKEWARM. A perfect Church in Doctrine, yet, the problem is the same as is Prophesied in Isa. 5:3 with the love for church doctrine [above] the Christ of His Doctrine!(Read John 12:42-43 and take note that 'Many Believed ON HIM.')
And also take note of Matt. 23:15 for our 'Discernment?? '.. for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte (convert), and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourself.'
And our discernment?? How do we do 'discern that above??? These were tithe payers, these were Sabbath keepers, these were educated, these ones had a beautiful Sanctuary, they ate no unclean foods, they were of excellent health, + they were members of Christ's ex/Virgin Sanctuary! (Matt. 23:38 + Rev. 2:5)
Yet, Inspiration Documents that we do not DISCERN as does God! Luke 12:47-48 teaches a Very Hot Obadiah 1:16 hell, + whom it is that God Documents will burn the longest because of their lack of Loving Obedient Discernment!
One might study Jonah for his acknowledged DISCERNMENT? Try Jonah 1:12-15 for what lay's ahead for us. Matt. 24:21
--Elijah