Do angles have free will?

[Mysteryman]

What I would like to ask those who have posted in this thread is this ---- Are you looking at the words - "Free will" in its proper understanding ?

Maybe an example would help express my question.

Most who post here (not all ) live in the USA. We have, because we are, what we call, a nation of the free. We have the freedom to come and go as we please. We have the freedom to vote. We have the free will to vote or not to vote. And even if we do not vote, we can still complain about those who are in office. This is the freedom of speech that we have. As long as we do not break the law. If we break the law we will be arrested for the crime of breaking the law.

We , as well as angels, have free will. However, none of us can break the laws of God. If we do, there are consequences. We read of these consequences throughout the scriptures. Nonetheless, everyone who ever lived within the knowledge of the scriptures, as well as those of us who are alive today, which includes angels which never die. Are all still subject to the consequences of the laws of God.

Does this make sense to anyone ?

 

[stovebolts]

Jeff, I thought it was just assumed Satan was an angel. Is this not Satan referred to in Isaiah 14?

I don't believe so, but I'm willing to do some more studying and change my view. Remember when I posted that people who worshipped demons eventually thought themselves to be gods? Babylon was right up there at the top of the list. Granted, I think we could say that the king of Babylon had the spirit of Satan, and Satan was working through him, so in that essence yes, figuratively it was Satan, but literally it was a person.

In Contrast, Cyrus was viewed as a Messiah in light of this event.

 

[danielseeksGod]

if angels don't have free will, then satan didn't have free will, then it's not satan's fault that iniquity was found in Him, and God can be blamed for all of our problems, and satan's too. i'm pretty sure that they have free will. consider the fact that we were made a little lower than them:
Psalm 8:4-5
what is man that you are mindful of him,
the son of man that you care for him?
You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings
and crowned him with glory and honor.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi danielseeksGod and welcome to the forums.

Why are we always so quick to blame and cast fault on others? At what point to we take responsibility for our actions regardless of the situation?... I didn't hear Job cast blame, and Jeremiah boasts in his lament,.. and Jesus died on the cross.

2:7 The Lord rejected his altar and abhorred his temple. He handed over to the enemy her palace walls;
the enemy shouted in the Lord’s temple as if it were a feast day.

2:11 My eyes are worn out from weeping; my stomach is in knots. My heart is poured out on the ground due to the destruction of my helpless people; children and infants faint in the town squares.
2:12 Children say to their mothers, “Where are food and drink?†They faint like a wounded warrior in the city squares. They die slowly in their mothers’ arms.

Yet he says,

3:22 The Lord’s loyal kindness never ceases; his compassions never end.
3:23 They are fresh every morning; your faithfulness is abundant!
3:24 “My portion is the Lord,†I have said to myself, so I will put my hope in him.

Perhaps it's never been about casting fault. Maybe it's all about how we respond, after all, we do have a choice in how we respond to situations.

But I regress, in the book of Job, Satan comes to YHVH and YHVH offers up Job.

Job 1:8 So the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth, a pure and upright man, one who fears God and turns away from evil.â€

According to Job, Satan is bound by God in what he can, and can't do. Satan is obedient to God.

Consider this:
Exodus 20:20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God has come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that you sin not.

What is God testing us for? Within context, it's to bring forth those who truly love him from those who hate Him.

Exodus 20:5-6 You shall not bow down yourself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


So the question remains, does Satan have free will, or is he obedient to God?

 

[Oats]

This seem a bit bizarre...but I'll add

Satans job is to be the accuser of God's people..,.therefore he sins in Judgement...if you can sin you have freewill

Since sin is rebellion to God's will...then Satan would have no iniquity....If it was God's will for him and 1/3 of the Angels to rebel

 

[Mike]

I've always heard that angels "envy" (probably not the appropriate word) humans because of their unique relationship with God, being his beloved. The best verse I have to support this is in 1 Peter.

"10Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things."

I wonder what you think of this concept, and does anyone have other scripture that points to it.

On the other hand, consider Psalm 8:

"4 what is man that you are mindful of him,
the son of man that you care for him?

5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings
and crowned him with glory and honor."

 

[Elvispelvis]

SB said;
Hey Craig, good to see you posting! Hope all is well!

I'd be really interested to hear, and see the scriptures that support what you've been told. Like yourself, I've heard similar things, but I've never seen scipture on it.

Again, I don't really know if Angels have free will or not because I've never really studied it, so I hope that this thread can remain civil as different views come into play.

Thanks!.................................................................................................

Craig ;
Howdy S B
I started a new thread on angels hope you dont mind but I want to list all the bible passages in the old testament and new to try to explain the IMPORTANCE OF UNDERSTANDING EVERYTHING ABOUT ANGELS.

God manifestation is a lifetime study of pleasure to find out how He reveals Himself to us. !

Try to grasp the concept in the very beginning that the Bible was written in Hebrew for a very good reason !
The new testament was written in Greek!

Jesus does not speak English.
Jesus is a Jew. All the writers of the new testament were Jews.

The beginning of the Bible does not say In the beginning God created the heaven and the Earth.
That is an English translation not Hebrew. So we must take the time to study, looking up in Strongs Exhaustive Concordance to change the words into Hebrew.

For instance the old testament uses the word God incorrectly 2,380 times.

The Hebrew word Elohim meaning angels or mighty ones is the proper way to say the verses.

So those who dont learn this are destined to make terrible mistakes about the word God.

At no time in ancient history did Abraham call him God yet it looks that way if you look at the English Bible! So my other thread starts at the beginning Genesis.

At no time did King David ever call Him God but it looks that way when you read it in English.
He never revealed Him self as God ever. But it looks like that in English.

ps were do you know me from SB?

 

[freeway]

good thread, as to the question of the opening post. If I may put my 2cents in.
I believe angels have free will thus satan choose to sin against the Most High.
Here is a list of Satan's five i wills:
Isa: 14: 12-15
A. "I will ascend into Heaven." the Throne Room. I'll take God's place."
B. "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God." "I will rule angels." Job 38:7, Jude 13,
Rev. 12:3, 4.
C. "I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north." This is
Earth as a place. Psalm 48:2 "I will rule mankind."
D. "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds." "I'll be supreme." He wills to displace
God as the Sovereign of the universe.
E. "I will be like the Most High." I'll be like God. This is power lust.

Now can angels still sin, I'm not sure, but they did at one time. I cannot see God creating robots to fall at his feet. That to me is less of a god, Love is something one must strive for in someone else.

 

[Mike]

good thread, as to the question of the opening post. If I may put my 2cents in.
I believe angels have free will thus satan choose to sin against the Most High.
Here is a list of Satan's five i wills:
Isa: 14: 12-15
A. "I will ascend into Heaven." the Throne Room. I'll take God's place."
B. "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God." "I will rule angels." Job 38:7, Jude 13,
Rev. 12:3, 4.
C. "I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north." This is
Earth as a place. Psalm 48:2 "I will rule mankind."
D. "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds." "I'll be supreme." He wills to displace
God as the Sovereign of the universe.
E. "I will be like the Most High." I'll be like God. This is power lust.

Now can angels still sin, I'm not sure, but they did at one time. I cannot see God creating robots to fall at his feet. That to me is less of a god, Love is something one must strive for in someone else.

This is what I was getting at earlier in the thread, but there seems to be differing opinion that he was referring to Satan. I think he was. I use the NIV, so I rarely refer to the KJV, but if one looks at verse 12 in that version, he is named in it.

"12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

 

[Elvispelvis]

The question itself is flawed.
Freewill is a human concept!

We must begin in Genesis and take a look at the mighty ones. the angels are immortal beings that do not have flesh and blood as we know it. Yes they look like us but there the similarities end. Immortal beings do not have sin flesh that made Adam and Eve sin. Immortal flesh can walk on the surface of the sun.

Immortal flesh can walk around inside a firey furnace and protect humans at the same time. Immortal beings are not subject to human laws so dont try to understand immortal beings by human standards. God says my ways are not your ways. That is why the question is incorrect.
That said I will now
endevour to explain Satan devil, lucifer, Beealzebub, because so many have stated Lucifer was an angel!
The Bible was not written in English. You would be foolish to base your salvation on a bad translation so take the time to look up the original Hebrew words to make sure you agree with the translators.

Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose [that] in which I delighted not.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
DID YOU GET THAT !! GOD SHALL SEND STRONG DELUSIONS
If it is from God then they are powerful delusions.

There are 4,203 denominations of Christian churches all collecting money for God.
Why? Because they dont follow the Bible the law and the prophets the old testament!

So called experts say that the serpent in the Garden was the devil, Satan.

The Bible does not say it was the devil yet all Christians say it was the devil.
The Bible does not say it was Satan yet all Christians say it was satan.
The Bible clearly says it was a serpent, no-one argues with that but then they turn around and say but that was Satan.
That is called adding to the word was is not there.

Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

If you add to the word you are cursed with a curse so you end up with utter confusion, 4,203 denominations of Christians killing each other in the name of God.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Looking at these verses if you add to the word a plague of death is over you.

Back to the garden of Eden.
It is a simple task for YHWH to allow the serpent to talk, have you never heard of the ass that spoke to Baalim, look it up. So other animals in the Bible spoke. You can not say because the serpent spoke it was proof it was satan if other animals in the bible also spoke.

Why did God curse the serpent instead of Satan, thats not justice!
Why did the serpent not blame Satan for what happened?

You are saying God is cruel to curse the serpent for what satan did !
The serpent had to suffer for eternity for someone elses sin is not scriptural for God does not punish
anyone for someone elses sin thats foolish thinking.

Why did not God mention Satan anywhere in this story ?
Why Did not God punish Satan for doing this to man he punished the serpant for eternity?
Are you saying God did not know it was Satan?

So you are adding to the word if you say the serpent was the Devil. You end up plagued and confused !
Next we talk about LUCIFER..................... to be cont'd

The old testament is full of future events. prophecy.
Please study the old testament>

 

[stovebolts]

SB said;
Hey Craig, good to see you posting! Hope all is well!

I'd be really interested to hear, and see the scriptures that support what you've been told. Like yourself, I've heard similar things, but I've never seen scipture on it.

Again, I don't really know if Angels have free will or not because I've never really studied it, so I hope that this thread can remain civil as different views come into play.

Thanks!.................................................................................................

Craig ;
Howdy S B
I started a new thread on angels hope you dont mind but I want to list all the bible passages in the old testament and new to try to explain the IMPORTANCE OF UNDERSTANDING EVERYTHING ABOUT ANGELS.

God manifestation is a lifetime study of pleasure to find out how He reveals Himself to us. !

Try to grasp the concept in the very beginning that the Bible was written in Hebrew for a very good reason !
The new testament was written in Greek!

Jesus does not speak English.
Jesus is a Jew. All the writers of the new testament were Jews.

The beginning of the Bible does not say In the beginning God created the heaven and the Earth.
That is an English translation not Hebrew. So we must take the time to study, looking up in Strongs Exhaustive Concordance to change the words into Hebrew.

For instance the old testament uses the word God incorrectly 2,380 times.

The Hebrew word Elohim meaning angels or mighty ones is the proper way to say the verses.

So those who dont learn this are destined to make terrible mistakes about the word God.

At no time in ancient history did Abraham call him God yet it looks that way if you look at the English Bible! So my other thread starts at the beginning Genesis.

At no time did King David ever call Him God but it looks that way when you read it in English.
He never revealed Him self as God ever. But it looks like that in English.

ps were do you know me from SB?

Hi Elvis (Craig). Veritas is also Craig ;)

I don't want to derail here, but in Shemot 20, the Ramban mentions Angels as being called elo-kiem (god) as well as Hashim. Thus, Adonia was also known as God.

As far as the NT, it was written in Greek and Aramaic. Luke, who wrote Luke and Acts was greek, and came from Troas.

I'll have to check out your other thread to see where you are going with it.
thanks!

 

[stovebolts]

This is what I was getting at earlier in the thread, but there seems to be differing opinion that he was referring to Satan. I think he was. I use the NIV, so I rarely refer to the KJV, but if one looks at verse 12 in that version, he is named in it.

"12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

That's very interesting. What I find more interesting is this. The word that's translated as Lucifer in the OT is strongs 1966 heylel. Ironically, when I do a search on this word, it only comes up once in the entire bible; Isaiah 14:12.

Youngs translates it like this.
Isaiah 14:12 How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations.

So who is this shining one, son of the Dawn and why does the KJV translate it as Lucifer and how does this name Lucifer make the connection to Satan as far as names are concerned since Satan (strongs 7854) is translated as Satan and Adversary many times by the Kjv. I'm not denying the connection between Satan and Lucifer, I'm simply questioning it for a better understanding of how the kjv translators came to this connection.

I know that I'm taking what I'm about to say way, way out of it's original context and I probably shouldn't even mention it here, but in Romans 9:22 we see that God does create items for the purpose of destruction. Additionally, in Revelation Death and Hades are both destroyed. Is it possible that God created an adversary for destruction as well?

Ironically, Rashi (A Jewish Rabbi) had this to say:
the morning star: This is Venus, which gives light as the morning star, ?????? being derived from ???, to shed light. This is the lamentation over the heavenly prince of Babylon, who will fall from heaven.

Angels are also called Prince in scriptures (See Daniel 12), so there is a connection between an Angel in heaven who is the prince fo Babylon, who falls from heaven.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote StoveBolts : "So who is this shining one, son of the Dawn and why does the KJV translate it as Lucifer and how does this name Lucifer make the connection to Satan as far as names are concerned since Satan (strongs 7854) is translated as Satan and Adversary many times by the Kjv. I'm not denying the connection between Satan and Lucifer, I'm simply questioning it for a better understanding of how the kjv translators came to this connection."

---------------------------------------

Hi Jeff:

There are many places in the KJV where these translaters took certain privliages during the translating. For instance, They translate the same greek word as "grave" and "hell". The word "hell" is an additional injection by the translators. I believe that the word/name "Lucifer" is also an alteration by the translators. It derives from the morning star -- Venus. I might have time to look into it further after I mow my lawn . But there is a good possibility that the word/name Lucifer, derives from a pagan god. And of course it could have easily been derived from the word - "luminescent"

For now, back to cutting grass - ;)

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi Jeff:

You might find this site somewhat intersting and informitive. Let me know what you think.

http://www.israelofgod.org/lucifer.htm

 

[Elvispelvis]

Wow you make me so happy I wont sleep all night !!

Some where someone is thinking ! The translators were English Christians trying to understand Hebrew
and they flat out got it wrong and if you will follow my thinking look closely at what the bible teaches in
Isaiah 14. Let me show you, what my teacher showed me ,the bible answers with scripture not mans thinking.

The Lord will have compassion on Jacob; once again he will choose Israel

and will settle them in their own land. Aliens will join them and unite with the house of Jacob.

2 Nations will take them and bring them to their own place.

And the house of Israel will possess the nations as menservants and maidservants in the Lord's land.

They will make captives of their captors and rule over their oppressors.

3 On the day the Lord gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:

So everything that follows is about the King of Babylon not satan the devil or lucifer.

History teachs us this was Nebuchadnezzar King of Babylon, Prince, The morning star Venus,made all to worship him as God. You ended up in the fiery furnace if you did not bow to him, the God. Some of his nicknames .were, morning star, the light, etc.
Was Nebuchadnezzar acting as God on earth defying the Almighty Father, pretending he was in the ruling places because he ruled the world and made everyone worship him as God.?

So he pretended to be in the heavenlies but was cast down to the Earth.

Yes history teaches us King Nebuchadnezzar was cast down to the ground like an animal he went insane and ate the grass of the field for seven till he learned that YHWH was the Most High God.
Read all of Isa 14 beginning to end a couple of times till it sinks in the transltors got it wrong!
This is the only place Lucifer or morning star is found in the whole bible .

"Prove all things hold fast that which is good".

 

[Elvispelvis]

mystery man said'


There are many places in the KJV where these translaters took certain privliages during the translating. For instance, They translate the same greek word as "grave" and "hell". The word "hell" is an additional injection by the translators. I believe that the word/name "Lucifer" is also an alteration by the translators. It derives from the morning star -- Venus. I might have time to look into it further after I mow my lawn . But there is a good possibility that the word/name Lucifer, derives from a pagan god. And of course it could have easily been derived from the word - "luminescent".................................

Craig said'
These are the things that make my life worth while. To find thinkers out there with open minds
willing to" study to show your self approved rightly dividing the word of truth".

Although this thread is not about GRAVE and HELL your point they cannot explain why sometimes they translated the same Hebrew word differently. We are going to cover all those words in posts coming.
But your right it proves the point what else did they not translate properly ?

My salvation is my responsibility " Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"
Isaiah 14 says in verse three it is about the King of Babylon, we know is KIng Nebuchdrezzer
Who claimed he was God and if you disagreed you were put in the fiery furnace.

Sin cerley Craig

 

[faithtransforms]

Honestly, I've never really done a study on Angels, but I heard a commentary the other day on these passages that questioned the idea of Angels not having free will.

This argument assumes that we humans have free will, and I would hope that our free will does not become the focal point of this argument.

Zechariah 3
1And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
The keyword here is standing.

7Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

The argument was presented that those who "stand by" in vese 7 are Angels, and the reason they stand by is that they have no free will and are only able to be obedient to the LORD. Humanity on the other hand has the ability to make choices, thus man is able to walk, and by walking has the ability to choose life or death based on Deut 30:15 and Deut 30:19.

I realize this smacks in the face those who believe that Satan is a fallen Angel based on Ez 28.

Thoughts?

Ok so this is very interesting. My first thought was, "Uh, duh...", but then I read the scriptures. I would of course totally disagree with the idea of angels NOT having free will. First, I don't know if it is in God's nature to create ANY being without free will but also, the obvious, satan and the other third of angels that fell. Without that doctrine, Christianity is a little bit lost... If he didn't fall then he's our friend! NOT!!! And I KNOW demons are real, FROM EXPERIENCE!!!

 

[jasoncran]

e coli and all manner of virus and other simplistic bacterium, and lower animals, reptilia and dont have wills.

 

[faithtransforms]

e coli and all manner of virus and other simplistic bacterium, and lower animals, reptilia and dont have wills.

Ok, well I would agree with that. I guess I just wouldn't put those things in the category of a "being". Such as something having a mind, a will, a consciousness. I don't know if, IMO, God would create a "being" as I define it, without a free will

 

[jasoncran]

e coli and all manner of virus and other simplistic bacterium, and lower animals, reptilia and dont have wills.

Ok, well I would agree with that. I guess I just wouldn't put those things in the category of a "being". Such as something having a mind, a will, a consciousness. I don't know if, IMO, God would create a "being" as I define it, without a free will

lol, my dog has emotions, and a will. she is stubborn but doesnt have the will like we do, she cant know what God is ,let alone sin, and still has instincts.