Do miracles happen?

[Aardverk]

An injured child is taken to hospital near the point of death, we pray for her and later say 'It was a miracle that she survived' even though we know that without the intervention of medical science she would have died.

Lourdes claims 68 miracle cures but 68 out of 5,000,000 visitors = 0.001% which ties in fairly well with mis-diagnosis and psychosomatic symptoms.

Are there any miracles that really stand up to scrutiny or should we regard, 'it was a miracle' simply as an anecdotal figure of speech?

 

[Matthew G]

In the scenario you laid out, how are we to know that God didn't, in fact, use the team of doctors that treated the child to facilitate her survival and recovery?

I won't hijack your thread and turn it into a theological debate. I will, however, share my opinion that miracles do indeed happen, and that God can and does use everyday things and people to do His work. I will also share my opinion that some people wouldn't believe a miracle if it slapped them in the face for the simple fact that they don't want to believe it. As the saying goes, "Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still."

To your point, though, there are times when even trained medical professionals say things like "They shouldn't have survived," or, "It was a miracle," or, "I can't explain it." So take that for what it's worth, I suppose.

 

[reba]

Yes they happen....

 

[Aardverk]

Can I just repeat the question as it has obviously been missed in the last two posts....

Are there any miracles that really stand up to scrutiny or should we regard, 'it was a miracle' simply as an anecdotal figure of speech?

 

[Davies]

Hi Aardverk,

I do believe miracles happen. Often, as Matthew G stated, we don't recognize them. Think about all the miracles that God did at the time of Moses. The people witnessed a great delivery from Egypt. God saved them in the desert and provided for all their needs, and yet the people would not remain faithful to God despite His mercy and care which were, beyond doubt, manifested.

I would also pose that creation is a miracle. When you look at a butterfly's wings, the scales that make them up, the transformation the butterfly goes through from a worm to something that flies, one should be amazed at the work of God. Miracles abound.

- Davies

 

[Matthew G]

Can I just repeat the question as it has obviously been missed in the last two posts....

I didn't miss it, I thought I summed it up when I said "Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still." To be honest, I feel like this is a loaded question. Scrutiny is too subjective and depends entirely on the person. Let me ask then exactly what you mean you say "stand up to scrutiny"? What scrutiny, specifically, should be stood up to for an event to be considered a miracle? Even more importantly, who's scrutiny? A Christian will need far less convincing to believe in a miracle than a skeptic would, and furthermore, there could be varying degrees of belief even among Christians. If you have, say a 65 year old pastor who's been in ministry for 40 years and an 18 year old who just got saved last week because his life was so hard he had nowhere else to turn - which of them do you think would require less convincing?

Case in point, millions of people believe in the Theory of Evolution despite several facts.
1.) It is a Theory. Nothing more, nothing less. It cannot be proven, which is why it's only a Theory. Yet, as I said millions believe it.
2.) If humans descended from apes over the course of a few million years, why do we still have apes? Is it implied that somehow one specific species of ape began to change and that during those millions of years to "humanhood" they remained the ONLY species to "evolve"? Highly unlikely.
3.)Most importantly, there is the problem that for evolution to be true, there had to have been firsts of each species which evolved from a single "parent species" so to speak. The problem they run into there is that for this to be true, procreation is necessary. And with the vast majority of species (bacteria and asexual species notwithstanding, although certainly with the apes we supposedly evolved from) procreation requires a male AND a female to have evolved from the same "parent species" at the same time. Mathematically impossible.

So again, this seems a loaded question as scrutiny depends soley on the person who's scrutinizing. I don't mean to be rude, but that's the way I see it.

 

[Davies]

Can I just repeat the question as it has obviously been missed in the last two posts....

I'm sorry Aardverk that I didn't answer your question. Since it is God who determines the day of our death, then whether it's by the doctor's wisdom or any other means by which the child survived, I'd say it was done by God's grace. That would constitute a miracle.

I think I'm growing fond of Aardverk's crankiness.

- Davies

 

[Classik]

Yes! Miracles do happen. They don't end. You drink some water and it goes through the right channel is one big miracle

 

[Aardverk]

... Let me ask then exactly what you mean you say "stand up to scrutiny"?

A fair question! How about a mixed team of churchmen and academics? Using Lourdes again as an example, there have been about 5,000 claimed miracles investigated by the RCC. They rejected all by 68 of them but were not willing to allow scrutiny by any independent doctors. We can only speculate why and what the result would have been of having impartial investigators.

Case in point, millions of people believe in the Theory of Evolution despite several facts.

I don't wish to be rude but you have displayed a few fundamental misunderstandings of 'the theory of evolution' and I don't think this is really the place to provide detailed answers. I sincerely suggest that you read a real book about evolution and not a half-baked criticism of it.

1.) It is a Theory. Nothing more, nothing less. It cannot be proven, which is why it's only a Theory.

There is some confusion over the terms 'Fact', 'Hypothesis', 'Law' and 'Theory'. The simple 'fact' is that there can never be certainty in science, something is only 'proven' to the best standards of knowledge that we have. For example, 'Phlogiston' was once a proven 'fact' that we now know is rubbish.

We do therefore talk about 'fact' and 'theory' with a degree of interchangeability. A poor example, but there is a 'theory' of gravity yet you doubtless accept gravity as a 'fact'. The 'proof' for evolution is overwhelming and is generally regarded as 'fact' but the interchangeability of terms allows us also to refer to the 'theory of evolution'. Rather like anthropomorphic global warming, all the time there are naysayers, it should scientifically, remain as a theory and not a fact.

2.) If humans descended from apes over the course of a few million years, why do we still have apes?

The 'theory' is of a common ancestor, not that we developed from Gorillas or Orang Utangs etc. The time scale of evolution of the higher animals is incredibly long and very difficult to identify. If however you look at the evolution of a lower order organism, you can see evolution taking place all the time, often in less than a year. If an organism changes/mutates and is better able to survive and thrive in a changing environment - that is evolution. We therefore have masses of absolute 'proof' of evolution in the lower order organisms which makes evolution per se a 'fact'.

If we can see such changes taking place before our eyes, I am prepared to accept that as evolution. If we can see such changes and still choose to ignore them, that deserves a less complimentary name

Is it implied that somehow one specific species of ape began to change and that during those millions of years to "humanhood" they remained the ONLY species to "evolve"?

Presumably you know about the genome? Obviously God could have chosen to give us 99% the same genes as apes and hominids as some sort of joke OR it could support the 'theory' of evolution that existed well before the genome was revealed to us. God may well have a great sense of humor but I know which I find most likely.

..... I don't mean to be rude, but that's the way I see it.

I understand. I also do not mean to be rude but if you are going to critique evolution, you really need to understand the 'facts' behind the 'theory'.

 

[Aardverk]

Yes! Miracles do happen. They don't end. You drink some water and it goes through the right channel is one big miracle

It always used to amaze me as a child that food and water come out of the right hole

 

[Aardverk]

......I think I'm growing fond of Aardverk's crankiness.

Ah, there is hope that I am turning into a harmless old man

 

[Classik]

It always used to amaze me as a child that food and water come out of the right hole

Very astonishing... how it happens. And when it follows the wrong channel....well... You know what:shcoked

 

[Nick]

I believe miracles do still happen. They might not be plain to see, and some refuse or are unable to believe them.

I've heard stories of people in hospital dying for hours and then waking up, much to the amazement of the doctors.

 

[Blev]

Yes! Miracles do happen. They don't end. You drink some water and it goes through the right channel is one big miracle

Yes miracles do happen. But there is no used arguing with someone who does not believe it and won't believe it, altho you know you have recieved miracles.

 

[Blev]

I believe miracles do still happen. They might not be plain to see, and some refuse or are unable to believe them.

I've heard stories of people in hospital dying for hours and then waking up, much to the amazement of the doctors.

Yes that happens. I have been healed and I have had financial miracles, also miracles in my family.

 

[Blev]

I don't remember what station it was on but the other day a policeman was saying on a news interview that a couple in an accident could not have lived, it was so bad. It was too crunched up with no room around them, completely totaled. It took them awhile to get them out but he said Someone was looking down from heaven on them for them to even be alive. And they walked away unharmed

 

[bigllama]

I don't think we 100% prove any miracle. However, I think that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ does stand up to scrutiny, and there is enough historical evidence for me to believe that really happened.

Here's a quote from Thomas Arnold, who was a Professor of History at the University of Oxford who specialized in Roman times: "I have been used for many years to studying the histories of other times, and to examining and weighing the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of the fair enquirer, than the great sign which God has given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead."

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

i believe in miracles and that God uses us to be vessels for his miralcles.

1 corinthians 12:28 says that some of us have the gift as "workers of miracles".

this gift is listed right after teachers and right before helpers.

we cannot do miracles but God does use us to perform his miracles.

this is why we can pray over people and see a healing.

 

[Aardverk]

I don't remember what station it was on but the other day a policeman was saying on a news interview that a couple in an accident could not have lived, it was so bad. It was too crunched up with no room around them, completely totaled. It took them awhile to get them out but he said Someone was looking down from heaven on them for them to even be alive. And they walked away unharmed

I'm sure we can provide dozens of these charming anecdotes but is it also a miracle when some poor soul is driving across a desert and the only tree for a hundred miles suddenly falls over and kills him?

Or we suffer an earthquake, with thousands killed, but one lucky chap is found 14 days later trapped in a basement. A miracle? What about the thousands killed? Was that a miracle too? Or an act of God? Or was it just bad luck?

What I was looking for in the OP is something that really can't be explained any other way.

 

[Blev]

i believe in miracles and that God uses us to be vessels for his miralcles.

1 corinthians 12:28 says that some of us have the gift as "workers of miracles".

this gift is listed right after teachers and right before helpers.

we cannot do miracles but God does use us to perform his miracles.

this is why we can pray over people and see a healing.