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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Do we have free will as sinners?
- Thread starter JWdant
- Start date
Christ_empowered
Member
Slave of sin or slave of righteousness…those seem to be the biblical options. Neither one seems to provide much in the way of total and complete free will…
Romans chapter 11, God's election have holy spirit. Their predestined, chosen before foundation of the world, ephesians chapter 1. Some people have spirit of stupor for their protection. Lot of people have free will. God will intervene in Election lives. Those with free will have to ask God for help. God doesn't show favoritism. The election earned the position in the first earth age. God judged the election in the first earth age, documentation, romans chapter 8. Acts chapter 3 ,salvation is open to everyone. Repent and convert to christianity. God might give someone spirtual sight. Some people have spirit of slumber for different reasons. You have to pray, and take it up with Jesus. I'm servant of God. I just plant seeds. Only Jesus can germinate those seeds. Talk to Jesus.
journeyman
Member
For some reason, this reminded me of,,
the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. Gal.3:24-25
I think we've always had free will of movement, except for our tutors (like parents, law, ect), but we haven't always had perfect knowledge of how of why mankind is hateful.
Of course the law and the prophets told us why, but our Savior proved it. He proved mankind had no good reason to mistreat him as they did.
It really becomes unbearable knowing the law convicts all. Thank you Lord for enduring that sin. May help us to always walk away from it.
Hello, I'm not sorry in a hurtful way for you or me, but I thank you for your concern. My sorry was that we didn't see scripture the same way. I was talking about accountability in a spiritual way and I used the word movement which was a bad chose of words. Age of accountability for one is not the same for all in my belief. Did the child have freedom of movement? yes.... Taking the cookie to hide was a sin and that movement was the sin nature of man. Questions for you?. Was that child accountable for sin? If not, why? If he was or wasn't what age is the age of accountability?
Dorothy Mae
Member
Nice reply, thank you. I think the child wanted the sweet cookie, no
sin nature involved. He’d take the cookie even if not forbidden. He doesn’t take it BECAUSE it’s forbidden but because it tastes nice.
I disagree with people when they read the phrase, "before the foundation of the world" in Ephesians chapter 1 and they teach that means, God decided before God created Adam how he was going to save sinful mankind.
At Luke 11:50 it says that Abel is, "from the foundation of the world," so I can understand that someone teach that God predestined men to be saved after Adam and Eve sinned but before they had children. Since Abel is from the foundation of the world before the foundation of the world would be before he was born. Since Genesis 3:15 is stated after Adam and Eve sinned but before they had children it seems reasonable to conclude the phrase, before the foundation of the world would apply to after Adam and Eve sinned, but before they had children.
I believe since man is made in God’s image, according to His likeness, man is a free moral agent. He had the freedom of choice to do good or bad. By his willing, loving obedience to his Creator, he was in a position to bring honor and glory to God far beyond that which the animal creation could bring. He could intelligently praise God for His wonderful qualities and could support His sovereignty. But Adam’s freedom was a relative freedom; it was not absolute. He could continue to live in happiness only if he acknowledged YHWH God's sovereignty. This was indicated by the tree of knowledge of good and bad, from which Adam was forbidden to eat. Eating of it would be an act of disobedience, a rebellion against God’s sovereignty.(Genesis 2:9, 16, 17)
Was it not Adam and Eve who chose for themselves to disobey God and eat the fruit instead of being in God's will!
Think about that as it was their own freewill choice.
It was Adam and Eve's freewill choice to be disobedient yes, but the phrase, "before the foundation of the world," can only be applied to Abel. God predestined humanity to be saved after Adam and Eve sinned(Genesis 3:15) but before they had children. It is said in the scriptures at Luke 11:50, "from the foundation of the world" begins with Abel, so the best anyone can say and remain in agreement with the scriptures is to teach that, "before the foundation of the world" would apply before Abel not before Adam.
Those applying the phrase, "before the foundation of the world," as being before God created Adam and Eve, are saying or implying things about God I can't agree with. For instance those who are applying the phrase, "before the foundation of the world" as being before God created Adam and Eve, are saying or at least implying sin and death was or is part of God's plan or purpose. I'm not going to agree with that. Also they're saying that when God told Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree that God was telling Adam not to do something that was impossible for Adam to be obedient to. When God told Adam to be obedient to what he told him about the forbidden tree Adam was completely able to be obedient to God.
Also, Adam and Eve could not have benefited from the ransom. The Mosaic Law stated this principle regarding a willful murderer: “You must take no ransom for the life of a murderer who is deserving to die.” (Numbers 35:31) Clearly, Adam and Eve deserved to die because they willingly and knowingly disobeyed God. They thereby gave up their prospect of everlasting life.
I will let you ponder the meaning of these verses.
My understanding as I am just throwing it out there. When you read Genesis 3:22 God knew good and evil way before the creation of Adam, no doubt because of Satan's fall after God placed him in the Garden of Eden and pride was then found in him. This was before Adam was created and then sinned by his own choice, just as Satan did with his free will choice. When Adam fell God said Adam became as one of us knowing good and evil, which I believe us means God and Jesus before the foundation of the world already knowing good and evil as other angels also rebelled against God, (another topic). God made coats of skin and clothed Adam and Eve being the first blood sacrifice for sin. Jump down to 1Peter 19-20 Christ was made the last blood sacrifice for sin who was foreordained before the foundation of the world for that very purpose even before God started His creation of the world.
Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
1Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
You make an interesting hypothesis regarding the foundation of the world but to say God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden along with Satan and then say it was not God's plan for man to sin. I myself believe Adam was capable of obeying God. Adam loved Eve which was part of his body. So now you have the Tree, Satan and part of your Body (Eve) that are all in sin. Luke 14:26 I don't see any other course for Adam but to eat and believe God. Genesis 3:3.
Where in scripture does it say that Satan fell into disobedience before Adam was created. Because you're going to have to show me that scripture that says that.
I ask myself a question, in the scriptures, hasn't God always spoke out against disobedience? The answer is, yes, God has always spoke out against being disobedient. So the fact that God speaks out against disobedience, that shows me that when God told Adam to not eat of the forbidden tree God wasn't wanting Adam to be disobedient to what he told him regarding the forbidden tree. God wanted him to be obedient not disobedient when HD told him not to eat of the forbidden tree. So it wasn't God's purpose or will or plan for Adam to be disobedient, so this teaches me that it wasn't God's purpose or will or plan that sin and death be a part of his plan or purpose or will.
I ask myself a question, isn't it true that God has always punished those who were disobedient? The answer is, yes. So since God has always punished those for disobedience, this teaches me that when God told Adam to not eat of the forbidden tree, God wanted him to be obedient not disobedient. This also teaches me that sin and death were not part of God's plan, or his will or purpose for sin and death to happen since the only way for sin and death to come into existence is by Adam disobeying God, which God didn't want Adam to be disobedient. You and others can teach that disobedience was part of God's plan or that it was God's purpose or his will for Adam to be disobedient but I'm going to disagree with that sort of reasoning.
Edward
2024 Supporter
It doesnt happen very often but I have heard that it has happened, that a believer turns from their faith and renounces it. It doesn't stop them from believing I think. Probably more along the lines of, they have favorite worldly things that they do not want to give up.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes, but I do believe that, eventually, the gospel will become to the ex-believer what it was to them before God called them. Just words. Just a story.