Do We Need to Keep the Sabbath (The LORD's Day) Holy?

[glorydaz]

Quote and question from glorydaz: "So you're claiming unbelievers don't have a conscience with God's laws "manifest in them" as Paul tells us in Romans 1 and 2? You're claiming unbelievers just don't know they shouldn't kill people, or that they shouldn't lie, or honor their parents? They just don't have an inkling of what is right and what is wrong? "


Hi glorydaz

Man did not know not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil , unless God told them not too - correct ?

Before Cain murdered Able, God warned Cain that if his countenance fell, that sin lieth at the door. Again, another warning from God. What man knew or didn't know is because of God.

Why do you think God destroyed this earth with the flood ? Because of all the evil, correct ?

God created man...he created Him with a conscience with His laws written on that conscience. I still see you denying God gave man a conscience. Read Romans 1 and 2, and stop going off on tangents. Of course not all men will heed their conscience...that is not the point. People have always known the difference between right and wrong, and they didn't just "evolve" that way.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote and question from glorydaz: "So you're claiming unbelievers don't have a conscience with God's laws "manifest in them" as Paul tells us in Romans 1 and 2? You're claiming unbelievers just don't know they shouldn't kill people, or that they shouldn't lie, or honor their parents? They just don't have an inkling of what is right and what is wrong? "


Hi glorydaz

Man did not know not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil , unless God told them not too - correct ?

Before Cain murdered Able, God warned Cain that if his countenance fell, that sin lieth at the door. Again, another warning from God. What man knew or didn't know is because of God.

Why do you think God destroyed this earth with the flood ? Because of all the evil, correct ?

God created man...he created Him with a conscience with His laws written on that conscience. I still see you denying God gave man a conscience. Read Romans 1 and 2, and stop going off on tangents. Of course not all men will heed their conscience...that is not the point. People have always known the difference between right and wrong, and they didn't just "evolve" that way.

In the OT - "fear" was the motivating factor !

 

[glorydaz]

You play hop/scotch with mankind! Moses stuff & the Eternal Covenant of the UNIVERSE are seperate law. When mankind sinned mankind LOST IT!

And man with what inside them you say??? (good?) Hardly. The Word states that the Holy Spirit for 120 year was STRIVING to get [INSIDE] the pre/flood ones. You need to post from a more mature Heb. 6 'meat' on here!
No personal offence! I 'speck' that 'i' was only there one time? (but I doubt it)

--Elijah

Perhaps the meat is too tough for some to chew. ;)

I'll go ahead and post a reply for any that have an ear to hear and eyes to see.

As soon as Adam and Eve sinned, they KNEW they had done evil and failed to do good. They were aware of their sinful and shameful condition before a holy God. Their eyes were opened, and they knew about their sin. They saw what they had fallen from and the good they had missed. Before Adam sinned, he never knew evil. God didn't have to spell this out to them...He had created them with a conscience.

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Man is without excuse for God has made Himself known to men...His law is put in our hearts...to know right from wrong.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

You can make any claim you like, but it is clear from the Word of God that man was created with a conscience that held the eternal moral law of God. We see evidence all throughout the Old Testament.

But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, LORD, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation? Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this. And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

 

[glorydaz]

Quote and question from glorydaz: "So you're claiming unbelievers don't have a conscience with God's laws "manifest in them" as Paul tells us in Romans 1 and 2? You're claiming unbelievers just don't know they shouldn't kill people, or that they shouldn't lie, or honor their parents? They just don't have an inkling of what is right and what is wrong? "


Hi glorydaz

Man did not know not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil , unless God told them not too - correct ?

Before Cain murdered Able, God warned Cain that if his countenance fell, that sin lieth at the door. Again, another warning from God. What man knew or didn't know is because of God.

Why do you think God destroyed this earth with the flood ? Because of all the evil, correct ?

God created man...he created Him with a conscience with His laws written on that conscience. I still see you denying God gave man a conscience. Read Romans 1 and 2, and stop going off on tangents. Of course not all men will heed their conscience...that is not the point. People have always known the difference between right and wrong, and they didn't just "evolve" that way.

In the OT - "fear" was the motivating factor !

I'm sure it was...fear is a motivating factor for many today, as well.
They are afraid they will fall from grace and lose their salvation.

That certainly doesn't mean man doesn't have a conscience that lets him know the difference between right and wrong. God did not make us beasts...we are made in His image. He had to make us with the ability to know good and evil.

 

[Mysteryman]

In the OT - "fear" was the motivating factor ![/quote]
I'm sure it was...fear is a motivating factor for many today, as well.
They are afraid they will fall from grace and lose their salvation.

That certainly doesn't mean man doesn't have a conscience that lets him know the difference between right and wrong. God did not make us beasts...we are made in His image. He had to make us with the ability to know good and evil.[/quote]



Hi glorydaz


Your imagination is running wild again. God did not make man to know good and evil < This is the truth ! Vain imaginations only blind the eyes of the one who produces such.

There is no profit in making up things, just to suit your fancy imagination.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil , is the tree God told them not to eat of !

 

[Ahuli]

Quote and question from glorydaz: "So you're claiming unbelievers don't have a conscience with God's laws "manifest in them" as Paul tells us in Romans 1 and 2? You're claiming unbelievers just don't know they shouldn't kill people, or that they shouldn't lie, or honor their parents? They just don't have an inkling of what is right and what is wrong? "


Hi glorydaz

Man did not know not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil , unless God told them not too - correct ?

Before Cain murdered Able, God warned Cain that if his countenance fell, that sin lieth at the door. Again, another warning from God. What man knew or didn't know is because of God.

Why do you think God destroyed this earth with the flood ? Because of all the evil, correct ?

God created man...he created Him with a conscience with His laws written on that conscience. I still see you denying God gave man a conscience. Read Romans 1 and 2, and stop going off on tangents. Of course not all men will heed their conscience...that is not the point. People have always known the difference between right and wrong, and they didn't just "evolve" that way.

You rely on your conscience? Good luck to you.

 

[Ahuli]

In the OT - "fear" was the motivating factor !

I'm sure it was...fear is a motivating factor for many today, as well.
They are afraid they will fall from grace and lose their salvation.

That certainly doesn't mean man doesn't have a conscience that lets him know the difference between right and wrong. God did not make us beasts...we are made in His image. He had to make us with the ability to know good and evil.[/quote]



Hi glorydaz


Your imagination is running wild again. God did not make man to know good and evil < This is the truth ! Vain imaginations only blind the eyes of the one who produces such.

There is no profit in making up things, just to suit your fancy imagination.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil , is the tree God told them not to eat of ![/quote]
Is there actually someone who does not know that? That is material the baby Christian learns in Kindergarten.

 

[Geo]

Many misunderstandings are related here, about the law(s), the ordinance and the everlasting covenant. None is obsolete now, neither at time of the very end. Isaiah talks about that time. Better take note and don't listen to false teachers. They themselves are responsible first of all because of their teaching that one or all of these are obsolete:

"The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left". Isa. 24:5-6.

The inhabitants of the earth defiled it, because they:

a) transgressed the laws
b) changed the ordinance
c) broken the everlasting covenant

These are the actual reasons for the endtimes massive devastation and burning.

If anyone's belief says otherwise it's because they have a false belief. And it's a waste of time to discuss with people that believe their own "reasons why" that won't agree with The Word.

 

[Biblereader]

We are not under the Old Covenant, that was for the Jews.

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

We have a new and better Covenant.
[quote="Heb. 8:6-10":2df5ze0q]But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The better way is liberty for all.

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

[/quote:2df5ze0q]

Very good!

 

[Biblereader]

Original poster, let me ask you this, and I apologize if you have answered this already, and I missed your answer:
WHY should a person "KEEP" the Sabbath?

How would you keep the Sabbath day holy? And, why would you do that?

 

[Biblereader]

Kind of OT, but, I found a great website, Christian, that offers, FREE,
very good, indepth bible studies.
The one lesson I completed today was:
http://www.bbnradio.org/wcm4/bbnbiengli ... fault.aspx

The doctrine of the new birth. I would recommend it for my Catholic, and Calvinist friends.

I also completed courses, at Bible Broadcasting Network Bible school, on:

Survey of the Bible
Lessons one and two of the Names of God

Give them a try. All the lessons are in audio form. They also have people standing by, to answer any questions you may have about the school.

 

[Biblereader]

Ah, here's another great lesson about the doctrine of the new birth!
It examines the myths surrounding this doctrine, and gives biblical answers to the questions
people may have:

http://www.bbnradio.org/wcm4/bbnbiengli ... fault.aspx

 

[Elijah674]

Original poster, let me ask you this, and I apologize if you have answered this already, and I missed your answer:
WHY should a person "KEEP" the Sabbath?

How would you keep the Sabbath day holy? And, why would you do that?

Simply because they LOVE THEIR CREATOR & RECREATOR! And because they do not DESIRE to be AGAIN UNDER THE LAW! ;) See Cain in Gen. 4:7

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

How do we want to keep the Lord's day?
Christ came to 'Magnify the law and make it honorable'. Isaiah 42:21.
It surely needed to be done, huh? And this verse deals with the WHOLE of the Moral code, Covenant! (remember, nothing much was said by Christ about Moses law)

Sabbath: The Sabbath does tell one what is their individual 'spiritual desire' if one truly Loves Christ! See 2 Corinthians 3:3 in the King James. Epistle means Christ Letter to us. There are two ways to know Truth. Isaiah 8:20 tells how! And the Sabbath is in-bodied in both of these tests. First is Christ's Law & then comes His reason for coming, to straighten it out! Magnify it.

OK: When one has been Born Again. He now, & ONLY now, LOVES CHRIST. (other/wise, who needs Christ??) Even the 'some' love that the sinner has not lost because of sin, still is from the creator. But this is not good enough, ALL still are required to return to the first creation love for Christ & His Salvation. John 3:3! See Hebrews 10:15-16, Hebrews 6:1-5, & Hebrews 8:10 + 2 Corinthians 3:3 again.

So here we see in Hebrews 3:6-19 a required history repeat testing to close out history. (If we believe the Word of God in Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15, and the 666 testing that separates all the professed saved, just before they are to enter their Land of Canaan?)

The chapter to study for this is Exodus 16:4-5 & Exodus 16:23-28, and Exodus 16:35's borders of their Canaan. (most are still looking for this, I believe?) Anyhow, if one will read this, perhaps they will see that the food was prepared or gathered on the preparation day before the Lords Sabbath days need? And that was given by God Himself, yet it was their 'work' to have it collected the day before. But reread verse 28 again! Exodus 16:28. "And the Lord said, How long REFUSE YE to keep My Commandments, and My Laws." Here is clearly seen that the 7th Day Sabbath was the ONLY test given for the Breaking of the Godhead's TOTAL COMPLETE COVENANT!! See James 2:8-12.

That answers food duties for the Born Again ones. Now for the last day increased knowledge of Hosea 4:6's computer 'work'?? Plus, much, much more!!
In Isaiah 58:12-14 we surely see the Born Again ones of John
3:3! "... call the Sabbath a DELIGHT, the HOLY OF THE LORD, HONORABLE;..."

Let me stop there for a question or two? On these forums we see the Eternal Covenant by some, called a jail, plus, much much more??? (you name it) Yet, notice the Word of God saying that it is to be a DELIGHT! How can this be?? Only by having the carnal heart BORN AGAIN! For a carnal heart & mind, the law of God is BONDAGE.

But before we continue on with the chapter, be sure that you notice that it says, "And they that shall be of thee shall build the 'old wast places:' thou shalt [raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, THE REPAIRER OF THE BREACH, THE RESTORER OF THE PATHS TO DWELL IN]... (Read Daniel 7:25again! and then enter Revelation 12:17)

... [IF] thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath , [from doing thy pleasure on my Holy Day;] ... (Break before continuing on for the original question! There is bad 'pride'! God hates a proud look! Yet, there is a spiritual Godly PRIDE that God does not hate. You dress well for who, when one goes to meet with God at church? If it is for self alone? it is hated by God, if it is a Godly pride, looking well for His sake, (which includes Godly self) then it is 'maturely' required!

A Restorer of Paths to dwell in?? Surely, God wants His Born Again EPISTLE OF CHRIST children to use HIS last day increased Knowledge for reaching the world about this devil's breach of His Eternal Covenant Day for Worship!! See Revelation 1:10's Work of God to John!

Now: Is the Sabbath that God Blessed & Set Aside for Holy USE doing my own pleasure or as God says.. ".. and call the Sabbath a DELIGHT, the Holy of the Lord, HONORABLE;.." (hold it again, before going on! Let me tell you, that the Lord's Work is the Story of my Born again Life! And if any more Last Day Knowledge comes into my possession, take a guess of what I will do on my Lord;s Sabbath Day!)

... If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing [thy own PLEASURE] on [MY HOLY DAY;] and call the Sabbath a DELIGHT, the HOLY OF THE LORD, HONORABLE; and shalt HONOR HIM, [NOT DOING THY OWN WAYS, NOR THINE OWN PLEASURE, NOR SPEAKING THINE OWN WORDS, THEN SHALT THOU DELIGHT THYSELF [IN THE LORD]..." (compare Romans 8:1)
And own pleasure?? our own pleasure aside from God requirements are not Sabbath Duties! Ball games! T.V. for entertainment, or everyday shop talk. We are to devote our time with God, by doing His 'spiritual' duties. And these duties are to be LOVING ONES!

If one is Born Again, they can readily see what Christ did when He came to earth to MAGNIFY THE LAW OF GOD AND TO MAKE IT HONORABLE!! When tithe paying was a issue? He said that they were hypocrites, they paid tithe, which they OUGHT TO HAVE DONE, yet omitted the WEIGHTIER matters of the [LAW]. Matthew 23:23-24.

He and the Sabbath 'spiritual' workers were walking through a corn field, and they ate enough for their need. They did not steal, nor did they take a basket along for the next day! Again read Matthew 23:24!!

And healing the sick? (On the Sabbath Day) It seems silly for me to even mention this?? And leave the ox stuck in the ditch? Sure would seem like a Christ/like thing to do, huh? And to think that with the Word of God as we have it today to study & read, HE STILL NEEDS TO MAGNIFY THE LAW AND MAKE IT HONORABLE!!?? (and I am not talking about the ones that do not know Christ, or the ones who are sincerely ignorant, but the ones who say that they know Christ?? See Luke 12:47-48)

Perhaps Christ needs even more Sabbath Day computer 'workers'! See Revelation 3:16-17

--Elijah

 

[glorydaz]

In the OT - "fear" was the motivating factor !

I'm sure it was...fear is a motivating factor for many today, as well.
They are afraid they will fall from grace and lose their salvation.

That certainly doesn't mean man doesn't have a conscience that lets him know the difference between right and wrong. God did not make us beasts...we are made in His image. He had to make us with the ability to know good and evil.

Hi glorydaz


Your imagination is running wild again. God did not make man to know good and evil < This is the truth ! Vain imaginations only blind the eyes of the one who produces such.

There is no profit in making up things, just to suit your fancy imagination.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil , is the tree God told them not to eat of !

But they ate of it anyway.

God most certainly did make man to know good and evil. He gave us a conscience. We know that from reading Romans, and we also know that because the people in the Old Testament knew the difference between right and wrong. God's eternal moral law is manifest in the conscience of mankind.


As soon as Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, they knew they had done wrong.

It's only through continual sin that man's conscience becomes seared.
I don't need to use my imagination...I have the Word of God backing me up.

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi glorydaz

Well, obviously they did not fear death , did they ?

And as I had said before, man was not made to know the laws of God ! God either told them, or wrote them down on stone.

And the scriptures do not back up your assertions.

Let me ask you something ---- Why did God have judges in the OT ?

 

[glorydaz]

Hi glorydaz

Well, obviously they did not fear death , did they ?

And as I had said before, man was not made to know the laws of God ! God either told them, or wrote them down on stone.

And the scriptures do not back up your assertions.

Let me ask you something ---- Why did God have judges in the OT ?

Of course it's supported by Scripture...If you don't think God has given man His eternal law written on his conscience, then you're the one ignoring the Word.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; .... 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Not only a conscience but a desire to know God by the wonders he sees around him.

And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith
.

I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it. He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end. I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi glorydaz

Well, obviously they did not fear death , did they ?

And as I had said before, man was not made to know the laws of God ! God either told them, or wrote them down on stone.

And the scriptures do not back up your assertions.

Let me ask you something ---- Why did God have judges in the OT ?

Of course it's supported by Scripture...If you don't think God has given man His eternal law written on his conscience, then you're the one ignoring the Word.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

[quote="Romans 1:28, 32"7ykyatd] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; .... 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Not only a conscience but a desire to know God by the wonders he sees around him.

And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith
.

I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it. He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end. I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life.

[/quote7ykyatd]


Hi glorydaz

Romans 1:20 is a revealing (revelation), and is addressed to the church, not the world.< Remember this as you will see my point.

Now look at Ecc. 3:10 - 12 < God have set the world in their hearts. Not God's laws ! And you did not underline the most important part of this verse , which states - "that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the begining to the end" < This should show you that their minds were of the world, and not of God and his laws. This is why God said, that there is no good in them.

For a man in the OT to do good, was to follow God and the law. This of course would be the children of Israel who were given the law.

I also would appreciate your ansswer to my question, as to why God gave judges in the OT ?

 

[glorydaz]

Hi glorydaz

Romans 1:20 is a revealing (revelation), and is addressed to the church, not the world.< Remember this as you will see my point.


I also would appreciate your ansswer to my question, as to why God gave judges in the OT ?

It plain there is little understanding of Romans among some professing Christians. Paul is speaking of the condition of mankind. I won't walk you through this portion of Scripture...if you can't see this isn't describing the church then there's no hope of your seeing anything else Paul is saying.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Why did God give them judges?...probably not for the reason you think. ;) He gave them judges because they did evil in the sight of the Lord and God delivered them into the hands of the "spoilers". Then God raised up judges to deliver them out of the hand of the spoilers. God gave them kings for the same reason...they didn't want God to rule over them. They wanted to be like the other nations.

And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim: And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger. And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth. And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and he delivered them into the hands of spoilers that spoiled them, and he sold them into the hands of their enemies round about, so that they could not any longer stand before their enemies. Whithersoever they went out, the hand of the LORD was against them for evil, as the LORD had said, and as the LORD had sworn unto them: and they were greatly distressed. Nevertheless the LORD raised up judges, which delivered them out of the hand of those that spoiled them. And yet they would not hearken unto their judges, but they went a whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the LORD; but they did not so.

All men do have a conscience and do know right from wrong because they were created in God's image. There could be no sin if man was an animal incapable of seeing the difference between right and wrong. All men are without excuse...not just believers.

Of course we know the judges ended up settling disputes when the law was broken. That really had nothing to do with whether or not God gave man a conscience....which Paul says clearly He did. Even common sense should tell you that much.

 

[glorydaz]

Hi glorydaz

Now look at Ecc. 3:10 - 12 < God have set the world in their hearts. Not God's laws ! And you did not underline the most important part of this verse , which states - "that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the begining to the end" < This should show you that their minds were of the world, and not of God and his laws. This is why God said, that there is no good in them.

For a man in the OT to do good, was to follow God and the law. This of course would be the children of Israel who were given the law.

BTW...I said man was given a conscience by God to know right from wrong...I certainly never claimed men obey their conscience, although many do try. The children of Israel are not a good example since they never could manage to obey the law God gave them. You must remember how Abraham lied about Sarah being his wife and it was the ungodly King whose heart was smote. His conscience was working better than Abrahams.