Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
-
Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Do you believe in hell?
- Thread starter Kathi
- Start date
Then why didn't you tell me directly when you were speaking to me and not behind my back in talking to another person?
What do you specifically disagree with?
Matthew
John
1 John
Jeremiah
...or the simply fact we can do nothing without Him.
JLB
Not once in your promotion of the anointing will teach you, have you included the hard slog that is needed in learning Greek or Hebrew to be able to translate from the original languages. You would not be able to even understand the statement 'his anointing teaches you' (1 John 1:27 ESV) without some scholars who knew the grammar of NT Greek.
I most certainly do not disagree with Matthew, John, 1 John and Jeremiah. I disagree with your not wanting to see the learning and interpretation of OT Hebrew and NT Greek as part of the need for God to teach you.
I read English. I speak English and the tongues of men and angels.
I don't need to learn another language to walk with God, and be led by His Spirit.
What language did Enoch read and understand?
When you can tell me what the rich man was required to believe, to keep him from the fires of hell, while being under the law of Moses, then I will see some value in your Greek studies.
JLB
Therefore, please include those who learn and teach the original languages of the Bible among those who are just as spiritual in being led by the Spirit as those who don't know Hebrew or Greek.
What has Enoch got to do with our discussion?
What the rich man was required to believe is what all people, Jews and Gentiles, throughout history have been required to believe.
It is sometimes thought that keeping the OT law was the way to salvation for people before Christ. We know that is not true because of a passage such as Galatians 3:11 (ESV): 'Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith". Here Paul is citing Habbakuk 2:4 (ESV). So, salvation by faith, without obedience to the OT law, was OT theology as much as NT theology. The OT way of salvation was exactly the same as for the NT - by faith alone.
We see this clearly in Romans 4:3 (ESV). Paul uses Abraham as an example: 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness'. It does not say that Abraham believed the OT law and thus became righteous. We also know that Abraham lived over 400 years before the Law was given.
How was David saved? Paul states in Rom 4:6-8 (ESV), quoting Psalm 32:1-2 (ESV), that the OT way of salvation was the same as for the NT - faith alone. What does Paul state in Rom 4:23-24 (ESV): 'But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord'.
Therefore, the only way to have righteousness to be credited to one's account is to have faith in God. And it doesn't matter whether it was Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, David, or the rich man of Luke 16. There is only one way to salvation, whether in the time prior to Christ or after his death and resurrection. That's by faith in God alone. Nothing more, nothing less.
I recommend the article, 'What was the Old Testament way of salvation?' (gotQuestions?org)
So your answer is to refer me to someone else's article?
Where does all the Greek study come into that equation?
JLB
You have audacity.
I provided you with an exposition of the fact that all people, whether Jew or Gentile, OT or NT era require faith in God alone to gain entry into eternal life as believers. Why did you not comment on the exposition I gave?
This demonstrated that there is only one way to receive God's righteousness and to go to be with Him at death - through faith in God alone.
Why won't you deal with the exposition I provided?
because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5
Please show me what someone under the law of Moses must believe, in order to escape the fires of hell.
Chapter and verse from the law.
JLB
Since you have not replied to the content of what I wrote at #211, there is no point in continuing this conversation as you don't seem to want it to go anywhere when I present evidence to contradict your POV.
Also, have you heard of progressive revelation and what that means on further revelation in the the NT of what happens at death?
This is what Joseph Smith also claimed. It is also what Brigham Young claimed when he ordered the Mountain Meadow Massacre. That is what Ellen White did when she had her cataleptic trances. So did Sabelius and Jim Jones and David Koresh and many, many more. Do you not know that anything that is not found in the Bible is a heresy, by definition? I am not calling you a heretic, but for sure, many heretics claim to have a "special revelation from God" and because no one checks out what is said with the Bible.
Now I have no reason to call your salvation into question, but because I have been privileged in certain areas, it is my duty before God to share that with others. It is NOT that you are dumb because you do not know the original languages of the Bible (Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic) but because you do not those things, those who have studied those languages for several years while in graduate school have been put in trust with the Gospel; they have a stewardship to clearly tell the truth, and not lead any of God's sheep astray. Do not let anyone kid you; it is a heavy, but awesome responsibility.
God counts teachers/preachers as being under special scrutiny, so you need not be intimidated, OK? It is those who teach and preach who are intimidated by the stuff they learn.
Do you also know that Mormons speak in tongues?
What do you think would happen if someone actually said "That is not in the Bible" to David Koresh (nee Wayne Howell) or Jim Jones, and then exposed them as false teachers? In the case of Jones, 900+ lives would have been saved, and the inferno at Waco, Texas would have been avoided.
You should be happy that some here are attempting to help guide you away from starting your own heresies.
If it were not so that we believe you to be a significant person in the Kingdom of God, then we would have left you alone. Did you ever think of it that way?Can you gain a new perspective from what I posted? No one is here to "fight" you. Can you accept that as being true?
TimothyW
Member
I did tell you directly.
Then another person repeated the fallacy and I had to deal with it all over again. It is a common fallacy that is used all the time with people who believe in eternal conscious torment. I'm making an active effort to correct this fallacy. You would think that people who believe that they believe the gospel truth would support their position from the scriptures and not resort to fallacious persuasion techniques, like poisoning the well.
This is what Joseph Smith also claimed. It is also what Brigham Young claimed when he ordered the Mountain Meadow Massacre. That is what Ellen White did when she had her cataleptic trances. So did Sabelius and Jim Jones and David Koresh and many, many more. Do you not know that anything that is not found in the Bible is a heresy, by definition? I am not calling you a heretic, but for sure, many heretics claim to have a "special revelation from God" and because no one checks out what is said with the Bible.
Now I have no reason to call your salvation into question, but because I have been privileged in certain areas, it is my duty before God to share that with others. It is NOT that you are dumb because you do not know the original languages of the Bible (Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic) but because you do not those things, those who have studied those languages for several years while in graduate school have been put in trust with the Gospel; they have a stewardship to clearly tell the truth, and not lead any of God's sheep astray. Do not let anyone kid you; it is a heavy, but awesome responsibility.
God counts teachers/preachers as being under special scrutiny, so you need not be intimidated, OK? It is those who teach and preach who are intimidated by the stuff they learn.
Do you also know that Mormons speak in tongues?
What do you think would happen if someone actually said "That is not in the Bible" to David Koresh (nee Wayne Howell) or Jim Jones, and then exposed them as false teachers? In the case of Jones, 900+ lives would have been saved, and the inferno at Waco, Texas would have been avoided.
You should be happy that some here are attempting to help guide you away from starting your own heresies.
Can you gain a new perspective from what I posted? No one is here to "fight" you. Can you accept that as being true?
Why are you condemning me by comparing me to a murderer because I don't feel I need to be a Greek scholar to have a relationship with God and be led by His Spirit.
JLB
"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:2-6
Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?
Your post seems to indicate that you don't believe in speaking in tongues, when a person receives the Holy Spirit?
Could you clarify your position?
Because Jehovah Witnesses don't believe in this work of the Holy Spirit either.
JLB
You missed what I was attempting to say. Do you not recall that I stated this at the beginning of one paragraph?
Now I have no reason to call your salvation into question... (emphasis added)
Here it is another way:
Just as someone "claims to be led by Holy Spirit" that does not always result in correct doctrine. What Jim Jones, Joe Smith, and others. did surely was NOT from Holy Spirit
Last edited:
Just as someone claims to be a Greek scholar, does not mean their doctrine is correct.
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16:15-18
What is the rock, or foundational truth that Jesus builds His Church?
JLB
Because of an on going battle between members this thread is closed. The forum mod will decide what is to be done he knows the history of this battle...
When 2 our more members make battles personal threads get closed... If member A would not respond to member B it would be much clearer who the 'bad guy' is...
When 2 our more members make battles personal threads get closed... If member A would not respond to member B it would be much clearer who the 'bad guy' is...
Obadiah
Member
This thread will stay closed. It has degenerated into primarily a personal argument between a few members instead of a mature discussion of the subject of the thread. This is an argument between members that has continued from other threads. Any further threads where this happens will be permanently closed.