Do you have to call yourself a Christain to be saved.

[Jim Parker]

I heard it somewhere that "Christian" means, Christ like...

I heard it was an intended as an insult by the pagans who mocked believers by referring to them as "slaves of Christ" which suited believers just fine since that's the terminology Paul used. (1Co 7:22)

 

[Jim Parker]

So Reba is using Scripture again, and this time she is essentially calling you an unbeliever and/or a deceiver;

I have no idea how you could possibly have come to that conclusion.

 

[K2CHRIST]

OK, you have the option of not answering a SIMPLE QUESTION; All that one can logically assume is that you chose not to answer. But what we CAN do is to give you the answer in hopes that you will not think that "by grace alone" is any sort of a heresy, as you stated

Sorry that I havn't been around the forum for a bit, but this "by this grace alone" is simply wrong. Even according to the scriptures you quoted. Of course I have already pointed this out to you, but you have been ignoring it. You quoted:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

How is it you miss "through faith" in the above verse? You need to ask yourself this question.

Here is another place that might help you.

Romans 1:1,2 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, though whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand...

Now we like to point out that importance of God's grace because we are not saved by works, and that is correct. But God's grace is part of His personality so it is available to everyone, but is not obtained by everyone. It is only obtained by those who have faith in Him. So we don't obtain salvation by works, but we do obtain salvation by faith. Of course nobody could obtain salvation by any means except for God's grace, but even now you must have faith, so it is not by grace alone. That is simply a statement that sounds good but is not correct.

The serious problem with the statement is that many seem to think that they have salvation no matter what they do. That is not so!!! It would be so if it was simply a matter of God's grace, but because it also take faith not everything is ok. For example, it is not ok to never hear from the Lord! A person that believes that God exist with them will certainly hear from Him who does exist with him. Abram heard from the Lord in a vision and believed that is was the Lord and that belief was counted to Abram as righteousness. That belief in God cause Abram to take numerous actions in his life. So it was not ok for Abram to simply do anything all the time. Because Abram believed he listen to the Lord and at times that hearing God by faith resulted in actions taken based upon what he heard.

So does a person really thinking it was by grace alone and not showing any concept of hearing the Lord by faith and doing what He tells them acting like an off spring of Abraham?

Certainly God did not have to credit Abram with righteousness simply because he believed. By the grace of God Abram was counted as righteous, but that only because He believed. It doesn't take work to believe, it takes faith. If takes faith the God actually exists and not as some far off being in a place called heaven, but as an Omni-present being who is with you so can be heard from. And if you really believe God can be heard from you will listen to Him and at least want to do what He tells you, because you believe Him who talks to you is God. So you won't do just anything, because you will fear Him. And you will want to do what He asks because you love Him with whom you have developed a relationship with.

So it was that James wrote, Jm 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save Him?

So it is by faith which we are saved! That of course because God has grace, because are works will never be good enough. Never-the-less we will have works of faith, which is to says we will hear the Lord telling us to do this and that and we will do them because of our faith. Which brings us to the other thing that James wrote:

Jm 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

So there is one that does works without hearing the Lord, so God is not really their Lord. God's grace does not cover that person.

And there is one that does not do works because he believes that it is by grace alone, but God's grace does not cover that person either.

In both those cases faith is missing. God's grace covers those that have faith. That faith results in getting instructions from the Lord and works of faith come from that. And type of faith saves use because God has grace. Our works are never good enough, but because of God's grace our faith is. Still, that faith results in actions, because it results in getting instructions from God.

 

[Edward]

Sorry that I havn't been around the forum for a bit, but this "by this grace alone" is simply wrong. Even according to the scriptures you quoted. Of course I have already pointed this out to you, but you have been ignoring it. You quoted:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

How is it you miss "through faith" in the above verse? You need to ask yourself this question.

Here is another place that might help you.

Romans 1:1,2 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, though whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand...

Now we like to point out that importance of God's grace because we are not saved by works, and that is correct. But God's grace is part of His personality so it is available to everyone, but is not obtained by everyone. It is only obtained by those who have faith in Him. So we don't obtain salvation by works, but we do obtain salvation by faith. Of course nobody could obtain salvation by any means except for God's grace, but even now you must have faith, so it is not by grace alone. That is simply a statement that sounds good but is not correct.

The serious problem with the statement is that many seem to think that they have salvation no matter what they do. That is not so!!! It would be so if it was simply a matter of God's grace, but because it also take faith not everything is ok. For example, it is not ok to never hear from the Lord! A person that believes that God exist with them will certainly hear from Him who does exist with him. Abram heard from the Lord in a vision and believed that is was the Lord and that belief was counted to Abram as righteousness. That belief in God cause Abram to take numerous actions in his life. So it was not ok for Abram to simply do anything all the time. Because Abram believed he listen to the Lord and at times that hearing God by faith resulted in actions taken based upon what he heard.

So does a person really thinking it was by grace alone and not showing any concept of hearing the Lord by faith and doing what He tells them acting like an off spring of Abraham?

Certainly God did not have to credit Abram with righteousness simply because he believed. By the grace of God Abram was counted as righteous, but that only because He believed. It doesn't take work to believe, it takes faith. If takes faith the God actually exists and not as some far off being in a place called heaven, but as an Omni-present being who is with you so can be heard from. And if you really believe God can be heard from you will listen to Him and at least want to do what He tells you, because you believe Him who talks to you is God. So you won't do just anything, because you will fear Him. And you will want to do what He asks because you love Him with whom you have developed a relationship with.

So it was that James wrote, Jm 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save Him?

So it is by faith which we are saved! That of course because God has grace, because are works will never be good enough. Never-the-less we will have works of faith, which is to says we will hear the Lord telling us to do this and that and we will do them because of our faith. Which brings us to the other thing that James wrote:

Jm 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

So there is one that does works without hearing the Lord, so God is not really their Lord. God's grace does not cover that person.

And there is one that does not do works because he believes that it is by grace alone, but God's grace does not cover that person either.

In both those cases faith is missing. God's grace covers those that have faith. That faith results in getting instructions from the Lord and works of faith come from that. And type of faith saves use because God has grace. Our works are never good enough, but because of God's grace our faith is. Still, that faith results in actions, because it results in getting instructions from God.

That's encouraging Brother, well said. I hear the ring of truth all over it. I did hear from God, and received instructions...

I was shocked. I have no clue how to approach doing what He wants me to do. Praise be to the Lord, and ...

 

[Grey Heron]

Regarding the OP: Like quite a few others have said, you don't have to call yourself a Christian to be a Christian, at the same time, if you are following Jesus Christ then 'Christian' is an appropriate term for that.

I have a similar understanding to WIP.

WIP said:
"My understanding of the term/title Christian is that it means disciple or follower of Christ. The word disciple seems to be defined as one who teaches and spreads the doctrine of another."

To be a Christian is to follow Christ (and the second bit about spreading the doctrine, but Jesus tells us to go out and preach anyway, so that is already covered in following Jesus).

I suppose we are then led to the question 'what does it mean to follow Christ?'.

However, at the moment I am curious about K2CHRIST's emphasis on following 'instructions' from God, received in the present moment. Would you mind explaining a bit more about how you hear from God/get instruction?

 

[Mike]

Welcome to CFnet, Grey Heron. Nice post and a good bridge to further the conversation.

 

[GodsGrace]

Regarding the OP: Like quite a few others have said, you don't have to call yourself a Christian to be a Christian, at the same time, if you are following Jesus Christ then 'Christian' is an appropriate term for that.

I have a similar understanding to WIP.

WIP said:
"My understanding of the term/title Christian is that it means disciple or follower of Christ. The word disciple seems to be defined as one who teaches and spreads the doctrine of another."

To be a Christian is to follow Christ (and the second bit about spreading the doctrine, but Jesus tells us to go out and preach anyway, so that is already covered in following Jesus).

I suppose we are then led to the question 'what does it mean to follow Christ?'.

However, at the moment I am curious about K2CHRIST's emphasis on following 'instructions' from God, received in the present moment. Would you mind explaining a bit more about how you hear from God/get instruction?

Hi GH,
Welcome to CF. Your question: What does it mean to follow Christ? Is the same as: What does it mean to BELIEVE in Christ?
We go through this question often here, but I thought to give some more detail since you ask it so directly.

What is a disciple of Christ: (from Dynamics of Discipling)

1. A person who has a deep abiding love for the person of Christ.
2. He has an unshakable faith and confidence in the Word of Christ.
3. He is committed to Christ in obedience and service.
4. Every activity and every thing in his life is surrendered to Christ's Lordship. Luke 14:26-27, 33
5. He saturates his life with the Word of God, consistently reading the bible. John 8:31
6. He develops a devotional life, growing in his prayer life. Psalm 5:3, Mark 1:35
7. Love and loyalty characterized by regular involvement in fellowship of a local church. 1 John 1:3, Hebrews 10:24-25
8. He desires to make Christ known to others by sharing the gospel. John 15:8

Instead one who teaches and spreads the doctrines that the Lord left us with is called a discipler.

A discipler is:

1. One who conciously allows Christ to reproduce His life, through him, in to the lives of others.
2. He is growing in each area listed under Disciple. 2 Peter 3:18
3. He has been effective in personal evangelism by leading others to Christ. Acts 8:29-30, 37-38
4. He has discipled another person. 1 Thessalonians 2:11-13

This could be understood as the process of investing oneself in the lives of others.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

How could we be saved by grace only?
The grace of God falls on everyone - even the unsaved.
Isaiah 26:10
Mathew 5:45
Acts 14:17

So are we all saved?
No.
It takes the acceptance of this grace to be saved.
If we accept the grace, it means we believe in Who sends it and
we have faith in that sender -
who is God -
who made Himself be known personally to us through His Son, Jesus the Christ.
John 1:17
1 Corinthians 1:4

W

 

[K2CHRIST]

Regarding the OP: Like quite a few others have said, you don't have to call yourself a Christian to be a Christian, at the same time, if you are following Jesus Christ then 'Christian' is an appropriate term for that.

I have a similar understanding to WIP.

WIP said:
"My understanding of the term/title Christian is that it means disciple or follower of Christ. The word disciple seems to be defined as one who teaches and spreads the doctrine of another."

To be a Christian is to follow Christ (and the second bit about spreading the doctrine, but Jesus tells us to go out and preach anyway, so that is already covered in following Jesus).

I suppose we are then led to the question 'what does it mean to follow Christ?'.

However, at the moment I am curious about K2CHRIST's emphasis on following 'instructions' from God, received in the present moment. Would you mind explaining a bit more about how you hear from God/get instruction?

Concerning how I hear from the Lord:

God is spirit, so I don't hear The Spirit of God with my physical ears but rather my spiritual ears. Everyone has spiritual ears and even other spiritual senses also, but most do not use them or even try to use them. And some that do use them do not seek God, but perhaps witchcraft or something like that. However we all do have them, but if we don't use our spiritual senses they become dull. So we need to practice using them.

Heb 5:11 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing
Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

The Hebrews knew the scriptures but didn't practice listening, so their hearing was dull. As a result they had couldn't tell if a religious spirit was talking to them or whether God was talking to them. But there is a spiritual realm around us which does influence us whether we pay attention or not. So we need to pay attention, seek the Lord, and practice listening with our spiritual ears.

Now how to listen, for those that don't understanding:

Spirits put impressions on us, and we can take those impressions and turn them into a voice in your head. It is like coming up to a stop sign. We don't take the time to read the stop sign, but the sign puts an impression on us to stop. We could read the sign if we slowed down to think about it. God also puts impressions on us, but we don't slow down to think about that either. So let's try doing that. Let's try slowing down and try picking up the voice of the Lord.

The Lord has me working in a healing ministry. Here are a couple of things we use to get people to start listening to the Lord:

Ask Jesus Christ if there is anyone you need to forgive. It's just a simple prayer, "Jesus Christ, is there anyone that I need to forgive?"

Then try to analyze the thoughts that come to you.

Unless you regularly do this you are probably going to have people come to mind. The thought may come across as someone's face. That is your spiritual eyes working. Or you may get a name, which is your spiritual ears working. And there is a good chance that the impression coming to you is going to surprise you a bit. You might find out that you need to forgive yourself, or even God. It is those surprises that start giving you an understanding that God really does exist.

Another thing we use is having people ask Jesus Christ how He feels about them. We know God is love and He cares about people, but it is still important the we hear Him, just like it is important for a wife to hear her husband tell her he loves her. So pray, "Jesus Christ, how do you feel about me?" Then listen and consider the impression that comes to you.

Note: Some people have trouble hearing the Lord tell them how he loves them. That is almost always because of how they feel about themselves. We sometimes can't believe that God could love us, then our belief gets in the way of hearing Him. Still, most people do pick up something from the Lord on this. And especially after they looked into forgiveness issues first. Going through forgiveness issues first help us understand the forgiveness of God and we can then understand that He might love us and thus become able to hear Him telling us so.

Here is another example. My daughter once told me that she though that she might hear from the Lord but wasn't sure. So I had her simply ask the Lord to show her that He was indeed there, and listen to the response. She her inside her, "You are a skeptical lion."

We obviously that was the Lord, because she didn't think she was being skeptical, though she clearly was. And she didn't think of herself as being a lion, but there she was going boldly to the throne of God. So she could indeed tell it was the Lord responding to her.

And in another example, we had a person come into the ministry recently who wanted to follow the Lord better. I hear the Lord tell me to have him put his heals against the wall then ask the Lord when to take a step forward and not move until he heard from the Lord. He stood there a couple of minutes clearly trying hard to hear from the Lord inside. Then suddenly he jumped forward with both feet. The Lord had asked him to take a leap of faith. And that is what we need to do. We need to take a leap of faith and start listening for the instructions and words the Lord has to say to us.

And with practice we will hear from the Lord better and learn a bit more about discerning of spirits, because there are also spirits of anger, hate, depression, and many others that are not from the Lord. And we will also come to know the angels in the Kingdom of God that do serve Him. You will pick up the Joy of the Lord, and Peace, and Mercy, and many more that serve the Lord. Jesus said His disciple would see angels ascending and descending on Him. He is Jacobs ladder.

Luke 8:8... As He said these things, He would call out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

How could we be saved by grace only?
The grace of God falls on everyone - even the unsaved.
Isaiah 26:10
Mathew 5:45
Acts 14:17

So are we all saved?
No.
It takes the acceptance of this grace to be saved.
If we accept the grace, it means we believe in Who sends it and
we have faith in that sender -
who is God -
who made Himself be known personally to us through His Son, Jesus the Christ.
John 1:17
1 Corinthians 1:4

W

Okay, I'll buy into this.
Sounds good.

 

[smaller]

How could we be saved by grace only?
The grace of God falls on everyone - even the unsaved.
Isaiah 26:10
Mathew 5:45
Acts 14:17

So are we all saved?
No.

It takes the acceptance of this grace to be saved.

That last blur is "entirely" upon the barriers His witnesses toss before those, unsaved, whom they witness to.

Some make it entirely too difficult.

Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

IF we are listening, we may move to avoid hearing the woe Jesus proclaims by not doing these manners of Pharisees and hypocrites.

If we accept the grace, it means we believe in Who sends it and
we have faith in that sender -
who is God -

True enough. But Gods Grace remains fully effective and on the table regardless of those witnessing or proclaiming it, and is not diminished one iota by such except by the witnesses themselves, in their own eyes and ears.

Suggestions? Fling open the gate of Jesus as wide as one can possibly see:

Matthew 22:
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

The above is what the servants of God in Christ should be found, doing.

It is always my hope, when witnessing Jesus to others, that I lay ZERO stumbling blocks to any person, good or bad.

who made Himself be known personally to us through His Son, Jesus the Christ.
John 1:17
1 Corinthians 1:4
W

There is another side to these equations that servants of Christ can quite easily fall into, which is unmerciful judgment. IF we desire mercy to ourselves, then it is equally important to distribute same ourselves. IF not, then we get this in it's place:

James 2:13
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

To the merciful, God will show Himself to them as Merciful, both to them and they, to others.

Zechariah 7:9
Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother:

2 Samuel 22:26
With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful, and with the upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright.

But to the froward, the stingy with Gods Mercy in Christ, self subscribed heaven blockers, stumbling block casters, the judgment of God will turn against them and lock them into being UNmerciful. Which is quite apparent in those who bear no MERCY to others.

IF we ourselves expect the Mercy of God in Christ, THEN we are to only garb ourselves with same, to share and to dispense. In this way there is multiplication of His Mercy to us.

Luke 6:36
Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Luke 18:13
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

The IF/THEN Divine Logic in these matters is quite clear. Lay out what we expect for ourselves from God in Christ, unto all people.

God's Mercy in Christ endures forever. It is in His Mercy that we ourselves will abide, forever.

 

[K2CHRIST]

How could we be saved by grace only?
The grace of God falls on everyone - even the unsaved.
Isaiah 26:10
Mathew 5:45
Acts 14:17

So are we all saved?
No.
It takes the acceptance of this grace to be saved.
If we accept the grace, it means we believe in Who sends it and
we have faith in that sender -
who is God -
who made Himself be known personally to us through His Son, Jesus the Christ.
John 1:17
1 Corinthians 1:4

W

I am kind of ok with the post above. If you go by that thinking, then it is not grace alone but also the acceptance of the grace of God which mean we believe in Jesus Christ.

It's a bit picky, but I not so sure we should present the gospel so much and acceptance of his God's grace though. Those people that heard from the Lord and wrote the Bible seem to present it more as salvation due to faith or belief, and that available because of God's grace.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

You see, if we are trying to accept God's grace instead of trying to believe in Jesus Christ it results in different efforts.

It seems to me that if I am trying to believe in Jesus Christ, my efforts are going to be in looking to or for Him. But if I am trying to accept God's grace (unmerited favor) I am going to be focus on what I am getting from God instead of trying to listen to God, and that I see as a problem. And I believe it is a problem I see in the church.

For example, I have seen where pastors promote giving to the church and God so that you will get more back. I'm not thinking they are honestly doing it because of works but if we promote giving to God so that we will get more back; aren't we promoting what we will get from God instead of treating God as God our Lord, the One who should be telling us what to do? Too often it seems we are looking to God for what we get.

Yes, we get unmerited favor (grace) and that message is important, but God needs to be looked to for instructions and what we can do. So we need to know God is a rewarded of those that seek Him, but He is God not us, and we need to be treating Him as God and not our slave who gives us what we want when we want it. Maybe I am presenting this a bit strong, but it does seem like sometimes we are only looking to God to get rather than to serve and love Him. We do that because we are human, but we should understand we are like that.

So while we do get God's grace (unmerited favor) and we are not saved because of our good works but by his grace, it is still important to understand it is because we believe in Jesus Christ, who we are supposed to be calling our Lord, meaning He instructs us. So it is not so much about accepting what He is going to give us, but rather about believing the God exists and thus listening to what He has to tell us.!

Is 30:9 For this is a rebellious people, false sons, Sons who refuse to listen to instructions of the Lord.

It is not just about accepting what great things He has to give us, it is about listening to Him who is God! So it is not just about accepting God's grace, it is about believing in Jesus Christ, the Lord of lords, and King of kings.

 

[Grey Heron]

Thank you Mike for your encouraging welcome. Thanks Wondering for your answer to my question, and thanks K2CHRIST for elaborating on your experience with receiving instruction, I found that helpful.

I was wanting further clarification on it because it is helpful to hear other people's experience on how to hear from God, but also because this topic is quite relevant for me at the moment. Recently I have been learning a lesson about 'instruction', or what I would normally refer to as 'direct revelation'.

I have been learning how we can easily stray off track when we focus too much on this method of hearing from God to the exclusion of others. Some of the other ways that we can find God's will are by reading the words of Jesus, by listening to our conscience, and through prayerful discussion with others. It can be easy to misinterpret a word, image or impression that we get through direct revelation, but if we incorporate other ways to find God's will, it'll help us see what is from God and what isn't. It is like that with our consciences - they can tell us things that are not from God, but which come from society i.e. we may feel guilty because society says something is wrong, when God has no problem with it (or more often, vice-versa).

To tie what I'm saying back in with the thread: how we choose to live our lives, and how much we desire to hear God's truth as clearly as possible, count for much more than what we call ourselves.

 

[K2CHRIST]

The Christ is called Jesus, meaning God's salvation. So that is what He is!

And the Bible is clear that we are saved because we believe in Him. But what does it mean to believe in Him. Does it mean that we believe that Jesus once lived here on earth, died and rose again? So He now set at the right hand of God in some place called heaven that we will see some day?

This is how we tend to present Jesus Christ! But is not how the Bible presents Jesus Christ!!

Paul wrote (Rm 10) do not say in your heart who will ascend into heaven, that is to bring Christ down... but the word of God is near you, in your heart and on your lips.

And John explained that Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Jn 1:1 say,s In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God, He was in the beginning with God. Also John wrote Rev 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called the Word of God.

So why did John call Jesus Christ the Word of God? Isn't is because we can hear from Him. And why did Paul write to not say in our hearts who will ascend into heaven? Isn't that because we tend to say that in our hearts and start thinking that we can not talk to Jesus Christ whose name is called the Word of God?

Yes that is it! That is what we do. We say that Jesus Christ is in some far off place, and we believe that! But that is not believing in Jesus Christ as the Word of God who can and will talk to us via the Holy Spirit of whom it is written, 'He does not speak on His own initiative, but as He hears He speaks"

Of course the Bible is important to study, and the Holy Spirit is not the only spirit which can be heard from. So we need to test the spirits and study the Bible, but first and foremost if we are going to have salvation we must believe in Jesus Christ as someone who said He would never leave us, and said that His sheep would hear His voice. And let us not forget that it is written over and over and over that "Today if you hear His voice, do not harden your heart" (Heb 3:7, 3:14, 4:7) And of course today would be the day you hear from someon who is always with you!

Yet we are people. And we turn away from the Lord. We stop believing and blow in the wind. At one moment we think we can hear from the Lord and we seek His voice, and amazingly we hear from Him. He tells us He loves us and wants to help us, or something along those lines. Then the next we doubt and decide not to listen, Perhaps we just get busy, or maybe we think we can't discern between good and evil and will get deceived, but more than likely we just want to do what we want. And then Christ again fades away as we walk our own way. But He comes back because He is faithful.

You would think we would notice that this happens all the time. You would think our faith would increase so that we would seek Him everyday, all thought the day. But we don't. We sometimes slip farther and farther away. Never-the-less He clings to His bride, and helps us despite our unfaithfulness. Shouldn't we at least try and remember that He is with us and turn back to Him. And I mean today, and a number of times today.

Yeah, we don't hear that well, so Grey Heron is right by writing "It can be easy to misinterpret a word, image or impression that we get through direct revelation", but it is that "direct revelation" which is Jesus Christ. He is a personal God! Yeah, He might use others and our Bible, but again it is written "Today if you hear His voice, do not harden your heart!" That "direct revelation" is His voice that you are supposed to hear "Today", so let's do that!!!!

 

[smaller]

Thank you Mike for your encouraging welcome. Thanks Wondering for your answer to my question, and thanks K2CHRIST for elaborating on your experience with receiving instruction, I found that helpful.

I was wanting further clarification on it because it is helpful to hear other people's experience on how to hear from God, but also because this topic is quite relevant for me at the moment. Recently I have been learning a lesson about 'instruction', or what I would normally refer to as 'direct revelation'.

Having spent some considerable amount of time in the charismatic sect(ors) of christianity, today, when I hear believers talk about "direct revelations" and "hearing Gods Voice" I somewhat cringe, having seen this direction so sorely abused. It was visibly apparent to me that a lot of charismatics were (supposedly) hearing from God, directly. And it was equally apparent that what they were supposedly hearing was a lot of nonsense that couldn't hold scriptural weight.

Eventually I left off from that entire avenue, and turned attentions to hearing and seeing what was already on the books to hear/see. Which turned out to be a lifelong engagement in "direct revelation" from what was already there, in some cases for thousands of years, to "hear/see and observe" in real life (eventually.)

God isn't going to put a personal megaphone to anyone's ears if they can't listen to what Gods already Spoken. Yes, the Word is Alive and Active. Heb. 4:12. And is so in the Ways He Has Already Spoken.

And I'm certainly NOT saying that we are not or can not be moved by personal engagements either. That maybe isn't the point. Listening to "voices in our heads" is not always "true" or "truthful." Most often it is our own internal imaginations, conjuring up some kind of dialog.

But I appreciate the reasoning both you and K2 are working on. I do the same constantly. The kicker is that sometimes we hear things we really don't want to hear or can fully accept. And this too can be and is from God in Christ.

It has been very hard to come to understand, over time, that "we," man, shall live by Every Word of God. To hear life when our flesh is inclined to lead us to hear death and thereby AVOID His Words on that side of the ledger is a hard matter for us to engage. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4.

I have been learning how we can easily stray off track when we focus too much on this method of hearing from God to the exclusion of others. Some of the other ways that we can find God's will are by reading the words of Jesus, by listening to our conscience, and through prayerful discussion with others. It can be easy to misinterpret a word, image or impression that we get through direct revelation, but if we incorporate other ways to find God's will, it'll help us see what is from God and what isn't. It is like that with our consciences - they can tell us things that are not from God, but which come from society i.e. we may feel guilty because society says something is wrong, when God has no problem with it (or more often, vice-versa).

To tie what I'm saying back in with the thread: how we choose to live our lives, and how much we desire to hear God's truth as clearly as possible, count for much more than what we call ourselves.

At some point in my Word studies I had to say to myself that I really didn't understand anything, and this to rid myself of personally imposed suppositions. I might even say I started hearing better, what was already there to hear/see when I didn't try to impose my own imaginations/impositions and suppositions.

It's a commonly known observation by many Bible students that we discover as we study the Word, The Word is also studying us, reflecting to us what is in our own hearts. I'm really not interested in seeing my own reflections, but His Perfect Reflection. And this always is my Hope when I open the pages or walk in life.

In reverse order then, this also led me to engage from the scriptures, WHY I don't see or reflect Perfectly. When we are truthful and honest before God in Christ, that we only see in part and as through darkness, honesty opens MORE Light from the scriptures and such may see more than they did before, just because they were led into honesty by the Holy Spirit. For example, we can optimistically think we are not sinners, but that is not going to change the fact of being sinners, according to what is written. No amount of "personal revelation" or "hearing directly from God" is going to change this fact.

There is much to learn from that side of the pages. Moreso than our perpetual kind of christian Tony Robbins mindset, "as we think, so we are" entirely optimistic impositions for ourselves, that we can supposedly "create" what we want to be by saying or believing (whatever) it is we are trying to create.

We can not conjure up Perfection on our own. That much is certain.

Oh, yeah, welcome!

 

[Grey Heron]

I think both K2CHRIST and Smaller have some good points. And I think the points can be combined to achieve a healthy balance.

I like K2's thought about the need for continual prayer and the need to 'turn to Christ' daily, and even a number of times daily. It's a good reminder of our weakness and tendency to stray from God. Jesus is the Word and He is alive and with us in the present and He can prompt us via our hearts, minds and consciences. Even those without Bible's can follow God in this way (Romans 2:14-15).

However, Smaller makes a good point about the ability to abuse 'direct revelation' and how we can 'miss-hear' what we think is from God. I also like the point that God has already given us so much instruction, through Jesus and the Bible, that we need to make sure we are incorporating that into our lives as much as we can, as this can often be a much clearer and grounded way to hear from God.

 

[CFrancis]

Hi. Please first exept my opolgy for innitiating this discussion, and then being very slow to respond to the many ongoing threads. I've found the reading interesting and thought provoking, so thank you for sharing all your thoughts.

The topic about how we hear from God has been raised, which I think marries some of the earlier points that people have raised in relation to the innitial post. For example, it has been shared that it is our faith that counts in our relationship with God, and not works and/or grace only. We know that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). I like the idea that Jesus is the Word, and that we can find Him within our hearts and in our conscience and through his instructions in the bible. I particularly resonate with the point Smaller made, that we have been given so much teaching in the bible and that it is a logical place to start. If we follow His teaching then other ways we might hear from God (i.e. conscience/circumstance/Godly counsel etc) should act as a second witness.

Heron said, 'how we choose to live our lives, and how much we desire to hear God's truth as clearly as possible, counts for much more than what we call ourselves'. I agree. I think that too often we focus on the title, rather than on the truth being reflected in our lives. I know I call myself a christian, but I also recognise how far short I fall from being a christian most of the time. I want to be a disciple in the way that I think, speak and act and I think this must come, as has been said in this thread, by faith and obedience to truth. If I am to call myself a christian, I want to do so with integrity.

 

[K2CHRIST]

I want to be a disciple in the way that I think, speak and act and I think this must come, as has been said in this thread, by faith and obedience to truth

This is so very important! We must want to be a disciple by faith and obedience to the truth!

Yet what does that mean?

Jesus said He was the truth, and He had and still has disciples. It is written that they will all be taught of God. So we are to be His disciple!!!

We are not the disciple of the Church, but He will certainly use the church. We are not trying to follow the Bible but He teaches from the Bible. We are not trying to learn it all by leaning on our own understanding, but we have our understanding. If we are a Christian, we are are following and learning from Jesus Christ!

There has been some concern about direct revelation, and there should be because the Holy Spirit is not the only spirit. Never-the-less direct revelation (meaning the Lord talking directly to us) is Him teaching us, instructing us, and disciplining us. We just need to be careful to make sure it is Him. The devil is tricky, and we don't see and hear all that well. So what we need to do is practice hearing more!!

So if we need to practice hearing more, the devils first trick is to try and get us to hear less. If the devil can get you to doubt what God told you then you will tend turn to leaning on your own understanding. Didn't we notice that when we read and studied the Bible?

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more drafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden."

There are the first words from that evil serpent and thus the first trick, and it was an effort to get Eve to doubt whether she had heard from God. So now we hear something from God and a bit later we doubt this getting direct revelation from God. Where did that doubt come from? Yeah, that snake is still around trying to turn us from God by creating a doubt about being able to hear from God directly. The snake may and will try the false prophecy thing also, but first he trys getting you to doubt whether you can even hear from the Lord.

Remember the first test Satan used on Jesus. Satan wanted Jesus to make bread out of those stones in the desert. Well, Moses brought down the law on stones but we have to get direct revelation from God also, so Jesus answered, "Man must live by every word that comes out of the mouth of God." Yes, we need to read and study the Scriptures, but every word from someone that never leaves us would include daily instructions and teachings, and not just those words of law that God put in stone. In other words, we Christian are going to be disciple by the Lord Jesus Christ our Lord, via the Holy Spirit.

One of the name for Jesus Christ is the Teacher. He is personally going to teach you. Another name for Jesus Christ is The Word of God, because He is going to personally talk to you. He has to if He is going to teach you. Another name for Jesus Christ is Wonderful Counselor. He is not only going to teach you He is going to give you wonderful counsel also. And we preach Jesus Christ meaning we are telling people that all the above is so.

He once told me, "Karl, they call Me Wonderful Counselor and so I am, but I am not a wonderful counselor to those that don't listen to Me."

Another time He told me, "Karl, what teacher doesn't put in front of his students today a book? Yet not only a book, but overhead transparencies, visuals, and other material also. So don't tell them to read the book, tell them to take the class. Because I tell you truly, if they are not listening to Me they are not My student, they are not My pupil. I tell you truly, if they are not listening to Me they are not my disciple."

The Lord gives you wisdom and understanding, but it is not that hard to understand! We need to listen to Him. Do you have ears to hear?

 

[Grey Heron]

Thanks, K2. I enjoyed reading your post.

Jesus did say to us that the words he spoke are spirit and they are life. They are not a book or a stone tablet (even though, like you say, God can use those things). The Bible says that Jesus is the 'Word of God', but many people can't let go of the notion that the Bible itself is the Word of God. Of course it isn't... it just contains the word of God (i.e. Jesus and his words).

Jesus said in John 7 that if someone does God's will then they will recognise that his teachings are true. This ties in with the idea of non-Christians being saved - if people are practising Jesus' teachings then eventually they will come to recognise Jesus as the source of those teachings (although, in some cases, maybe this won't even happen until it's revealed to them at the point of death). It may take some time and a bit of a process before they accept the name of Jesus, but to the extent that they are living out his teachings they are accepting the spirit of Jesus, and doing God's will regardless of whether they know it or not!

 

[Trichakra]

Do you have to call yourself a Christian to be saved?

No,
Calling Yourself a Christian doesn't Make You a Christian