Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[Jethro Bodine]

If there's anything in verses 22-23 that supports non-OSAS, I'm missing it.

Since (if indeed) God knows all things, why in the world would He reconcile a sinner, present him holy and blameless, and all only to later blame him? God does know all things (indeed He does), it's not an "if" that's conceivable Biblically.

Not Biblically conceivable? Yes, it is. Jesus said in Matthew 18:23-35 NASB a person will be forgiven, but will have that forgiveness removed if the person forgiven fails to pass that forgiveness on to everyone else. I know you'll want to put the passage under a magnifying glass in order to try to make it not say what it so plainly says, and that's okay if you're honestly seeking the truth, but before you do that let's list the facts presented in the passage:

1. The slave begged for release from his debt.
2. The king really did forgive the slave's debt, not just let him think it was forgiven.
3. Jesus said the kingdom can be compared to what happens in the parable.
4. Jesus said his Father will treat us the same way if we do what the slave did.

I've pointed this fact out to you in the past. There's a very good reason (a Greek reason) all modern translations say "if indeed", not just "if". I'm told the form of the verb and grammar in this particular text actually shows Paul had assurance indeed they would, in fact, continue to have steadfast hope(his point).

IOW, the Bible doesn't really mean what it says. We have too many doctrines in the church that rely on this defense. Telling unbelievers that the Bible doesn't really mean what it says is what opened my eyes to how wrong we've been to depend on this method of interpretation instead of just reading and accepting the plain words of scripture.

And if there is anything the cults have taught us is you can say the original Greek actually means something else other than what it got translated to in English. You're pretty well safe if you do that, because only a few people have a degree in ancient Greek to know if the claim is really true, or not.

Since I, and the vast majority of us in the church have no way of verifying Greek language claims, I generally let them go in one ear and out the other. I prefer to just go with the plain words of my English Bible. The Bible makes so much more sense when you do that, and makes it so much easier to explain it to others. And you preserve your credibility when you do that.

Even if you don't buy that, It's quite conceivable, that Paul recognized some readers in the church at Colossae were in fact not holding fast to the hope of the firm gospel (the firm faith) which they heard from him. I know saved people like that.

So that means you are of the brand of OSAS that says, yes, a person can decide to later not believe. If so that contradicts your claim that God knows everything ahead of time and will not forgive a person ahead of time who will later move away from that hope.

Explain? Do you think "moved away from the hope" means to become unsaved?
If it does, why would Paul not say it?

I think he means "moved away from the hope". IOW, to be less hopeful, less steadfast, less sure. As opposed to the steadfastness of the Gospel itself. How does that mean less saved?

You will agree that it was by faith that we are 'reconciled in His fleshly body through death, presented before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach', and not in some other way. So how do you remain 'reconciled in His fleshly body through death, presented before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach' if you no longer have the faith that does that for you? Christ's ministry is activated on our behalf by our trust in that ministry. But OSAS says Christ's ministry does not need to remain activated by our faith but will be so anyway.

If you now want to acknowledge that it is possible to shrink back from a profession of faith, then you're contradicting your first point that God knows everything and won't save someone he knows will only turn away from believing later on. So you have to decide which one you want to believe: God only saves people who he knows will stay the course, or, when people don't stay the course they remain blameless and beyond reproach anyway. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I answered the one about the 1Peter Scripture.

No, you didn't. Here they are again:


"5 who are protected by the power of God through faith..." (1 Peter 1:5 NASB)

Explain how this does not mean we have the protection of God's power making the promise of things to come secure through faith. Does the passage say it happens through some other way and I'm just missing it? Help me out here.

How does Peter saying the inheritance we wait for is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading mean the believing we do to secure that inheritance is also imperishable, undefiled, and unfading? Explain.

God won't let us down. His Word is sure. The kingdom he promises to those who believe is as solid as Sears. But how and why does this mean we won't, and can never, let God down?

 

[chessman]

Not Biblically conceivable? Yes, it is.

Not Biblically conceivable? Yes, it is.

You misunderstood what I wrote. What i said was inconceivable was that God could die. Not that OSAS=no is inconceivable. I was making a point about 1Peter 1:5 using the hypothetical situation that if the power of God is removed from the 'maintenance' of salvation (leaving simply your faith) then there's no possibility for salvation. Try reading my post again, more carefully.

Also, if indeed you do that, you'll see your mistaken notion concerning what I said.

But if you don't, you'll simply be less informed of what I truly meant.

I want hold it against you.

 

[JLB]

The person's actions. For example, if they have a desire to share Jesus with other people and because of that desire you would see them witnessing. Changing the way you live by obeying God.

Someone with the head but not the heart knowledge would not show any fruits of the spirit.

That would place Mormon's and Jehovah's Witness's in the category of having the fruits of the Spirit, when most of them don't believe, nor have a born again doctrine, or the Baptism of The Holy Spirit.


JLB

 

[veryberry]

Not Biblically conceivable? Yes, it is. Jesus said in Matthew 18:23-35 NASB a person will be forgiven, but will have that forgiveness removed if the person forgiven fails to pass that forgiveness on to everyone else. I know you'll want to put the passage under a magnifying glass in order to try to make it not say what it so plainly says, and that's okay if you're honestly seeking the truth, but before you do that let's list the facts presented in the passage:

1. The slave begged for release from his debt.
2. The king really did forgive the slave's debt, not just let him think it was forgiven.
3. Jesus said the kingdom can be compared to what happens in the parable.
4. Jesus said his Father will treat us the same way if we do what the slave did.




IOW, the Bible doesn't really mean what it says. We have too many doctrines in the church that rely on this defense. Telling unbelievers that the Bible doesn't really mean what it says is what opened my eyes to how wrong we've been to depend on this method of interpretation instead of just reading and accepting the plain words of scripture.

And if there is anything the cults have taught us is you can say the original Greek actually means something else other than what it got translated to in English. You're pretty well safe if you do that, because only a few people have a degree in ancient Greek to know if the claim is really true, or not.

Since I, and the vast majority of us in the church have no way of verifying Greek language claims, I generally let them go in one ear and out the other. I prefer to just go with the plain words of my English Bible. The Bible makes so much more sense when you do that, and makes it so much easier to explain it to others. And you preserve your credibility when you do that.




So that means you are of the brand of OSAS that says, yes, a person can decide to later not believe. If so that contradicts your claim that God knows everything ahead of time and will not forgive a person ahead of time who will later move away from that hope.



You will agree that it was by faith that we are 'reconciled in His fleshly body through death, presented before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach', and not in some other way. So how do you remain 'reconciled in His fleshly body through death, presented before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach' if you no longer have the faith that does that for you? Christ's ministry is activated on our behalf by our trust in that ministry. But OSAS says Christ's ministry does not need to remain activated by our faith but will be so anyway.

If you now want to acknowledge that it is possible to shrink back from a profession of faith, then you're contradicting your first point that God knows everything and won't save someone he knows will only turn away from believing later on. So you have to decide which one you want to believe: God only saves people who he knows will stay the course, or, when people don't stay the course they remain blameless and beyond reproach anyway. You can't have it both ways.

2 Tim 2: 15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

2 Tim 2: 15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I don't know if you are suggesting I have rightly divided the word of truth, or that I have not.

If you are suggesting I did not, feel free to interpret Jesus' message about the kingdom to show it doesn't really mean that in the kingdom a person can be genuinely forgiven but then have that forgiveness rescinded.

 

[veryberry]

I don't know if you are suggesting I have rightly divided the word of truth, or that I have not.

If you are suggesting I did not, feel free to interpret Jesus' message about the kingdom to show it doesn't really mean that in the kingdom a person can be genuinely forgiven but then have that forgiveness rescinded.

Eph 2:8 For by GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Tit 3:5 - Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You misunderstood what I wrote. What i said was inconceivable was that God could die. Not that OSAS=no is inconceivable. I was making a point about 1Peter 1:5 using the hypothetical situation that if the power of God is removed from the 'maintenance' of salvation (leaving simply your faith) then there's no possibility for salvation. Try reading my post again, more carefully.

No, I'm pretty sure you made it clear what you were talking about:

chessman said:

If there's anything in verses 22-23 that supports non-OSAS, I'm missing it.

Since (if indeed) God knows all things, why in the world would He reconcile a sinner, present him holy and blameless, and all only to later blame him? God does know all things (indeed He does), it's not an "if" that's conceivable Biblically.

I've pointed this fact out to you in the past. There's a very good reason (a Greek reason) all modern translations say "if indeed", not just "if". I'm told the form of the verb and grammar in this particular text actually shows Paul had assurance indeed they would, in fact, continue to have steadfast hope(his point).

I don't see anything in this post about God dying. You are saying it is inconceivable, Biblically, for a genuine believer to be subject to the possibility--the 'if'--of falling away from the hope they profess.

I provided the Biblical evidence that we are in fact subject to the 'if' of moving away from the hope we have. But I'm being told that it's not Biblically conceivable that could be true. And I'm being asked to interpret plain words according to a Greek understanding that actually makes it mean the exact opposite of what it means in English. If the church wants to have any credibility in the eyes of the world we have to stop doing this.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Tit 3:5 - Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Why do you continue to believe that non-OSAS is about doing works of righteousness to be justified?

The argument is, you were justified by faith, apart from works. You will REMAIN justified by faith, apart from works, if you continue in that faith.

You can not abandon the faith that justified you, apart from works, and still be justified by that faith.

 

[veryberry]

I don't know if you are suggesting I have rightly divided the word of truth, or that I have not.

If you are suggesting I did not, feel free to interpret Jesus' message about the kingdom to show it doesn't really mean that in the kingdom a person can be genuinely forgiven but then have that forgiveness rescinded.

Rom 4: 2 - For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4: 4 - Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Rom 4: 2 - For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4: 4 - Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

That's good news.

Now explain to me how I access this grace.

 

[veryberry]

Eph 2:8 For by GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Tit 3:5 - Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Gal 2: 21 - I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Gal 2: 21 - I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Maybe you are confused and think you are posting in another thread.

This thread is about continuing in the faith that justifies apart from works, which OSAS says you don't have to do to remain justified before God (and/or it's impossible to stop believing). This is not a thread about trying to be justified by works.

 

[veryberry]

That's good news.

Now explain to me how I access this grace.

1 Cor 15: 3 - 4
3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

 

[chessman]

No, I'm pretty sure you made it clear what you were talking about:
.

You are quoting a post about Col as if it answered your question about 1 Peter.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are quoting a post about Col as if it answered your question about 1 Peter.

Feel free to clear the air. I've challenged your interpretation of both passages. My posts are clear and to the point.

The floor is yours.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1 Cor 15: 3 - 4
3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

..in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard.

Once again I ask you, "are you okay with me adding this onto your correct summation of the gospel?"

If you want to make me see your doctrine is the truth you'll have to answer my questions.

 

[veryberry]

Maybe you are confused and think you are posting in another thread.

This thread is about continuing in the faith that justifies apart from works, which OSAS you don't have to do to remain justified before God. This is not a thread about trying to be justified by works.

Rom 3: 24 - Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 5: 1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5: 9 - Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Titus 3: 7 - That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Rom 3: 24 - Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 5: 1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5: 9 - Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Titus 3: 7 - That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I'm amazed that you can't see that what you are doing is insisting that I read these passage according to OSAS doctrine, that 'being justified freely by grace' implicitly means justification can not stop once you have it.

How can you come to that conclusion (the conclusion that you provide, not what the passage provides) that nothing can bring the justification that one receives from God to an end? I showed you the abundance of plain Biblical teaching that says it will stop if you stop doing what secured that justification in the first place--believing.

 

[JLB]

Eph 2:8 For by GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Tit 3:5 - Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

These are very good scriptures that teach us how our initial salvation is obtained.

However, this discussion has moved on from the elementary discussion of initial salvation to how we continue on in this precious salvation steadfast to the end, as it is written -

... receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.

5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:5-9


Peter lays out the process...

that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,


I find it difficult to understand how anyone who has made a thorough examination of the writings of the New Testament, can come away with the perception of a doctrine that teaches OSAS.

This teaching does not come from the Lord, nor His Apostles.


JLB