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Doctrine of the Trinity – Is it Fundamental to the Christian Faith

What did Jesus declare "From this present time you both know the Father, and have seen him"

  • Jesus was confused and the doctrines of man are to be obeyed

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Doctrinal Statement of this site
We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.

We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
 
OK, the site's Statement of Faith and most Christians affirm the doctrine of the Trinity. But surely it is fair to ask whether this doctrine is fundamental or essential to being a Christian? This is the same point I have been attempting to get at with my thread on the Apologetics forum, "Give us your absolute bottom-line Christian essentials." So far, no one there has suggested that the Trinity is an absolute bottom-line essential, even though I have expressly invited them to do so.

While I accept the doctrine of the Trinity, it’s difficult for me to see it as essential for a variety of reasons:
  1. The Old Testament Jews had utterly no concept of a triune God. It seems odd that God would not have clearly revealed this core fact about His nature. Christians can convince themselves they see hints of the Trinity in the OT, but the Jews certainly didn't.
  2. The doctrine is not explicitly stated in the Bible. No serious scholar tries to argue that it is. This likewise seems odd if it is an essential doctrine.
  3. The most explicit indications of Jesus as divine are found in the Gospel of John, which is very different from the Synoptic Gospels and has Jesus making claims He makes nowhere else. (On the other hand, scholars have shown that Jesus’ divinity was indeed one of the core beliefs of the earliest Christian community.)
  4. Scholars accept that the first use of the term Trinity was by Tertullian, who lived circa 145-200 A.D. As stated by the New Catholic Encyclopedia, “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established into Christian life prior to the 4th Century. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there has been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”
  5. If you read the history of the events leading to the Fourth Century creeds, the deity of Jesus and the doctrine of the Trinity were hotly debated and negotiated - it wasn't just a matter of extinguishing obvious heresies.
  6. The doctrine itself is fundamentally unintelligible even if one fully accepts it. I question whether it really adds anything to the depth of one’s faith.
  7. And, of course, we have the troubling verses on which non-Trinitarians rely – for example, Luke 18:19 (And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.”) and Colossians 1:15 (“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.”). (Both verses from the NASB.)
You certainly can derive the doctrine of the Trinity from the Bible, and I accept it as probably the best understanding without viewing it as essential. What I see as essential is an acceptance that Jesus is the one and only Son of God, had and has a unique relationship with the Father, was and is the Father’s chosen means for reconciling the world to himself, and is our means of salvation. As summarized in my thread about absolute bottom-line Christian essentials, I believe the essentials are “You are a created being in a created universe, wholly dependent on the creator God” (not necessarily or essentially on a triune God) and “God offers forgiveness and reconciliation through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus” (not necessarily or essentially through the Third Person of the Trinity Jesus).

To deny the trinity is to deny the deity of Christ. That seems an essential to me.
 
That would be true, if you were to worship the image of a man as God. For God is Spirit, and must be worshiped in Spirit and in truth.
There is no but about it. Emmanuel , God with us, was formed in the womb of Mary by God. Her ovaries did not produce the egg that became Emmanuel. Jesus was formed by God in her womb. The Word became flesh. This is why as has been said, God is a verb. Creator, not person. God is a Holy Spirit. Jesus was God (Emmanuel) There is only one. Not three. God is power, not an entity. God is creative power, alpha, omega.
 
Doctrinal Statement of this site
We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.

We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Please as we are to follow scriptural proof rules, show the scripture wherein God says he is a distinct, meaning separate, person. That the Holy Spirit is a distinct, separate, person. And that the Son is a distinct, separate, as in separate from the distinct person that is God. And separate from the distinct person that is Holy Spirit, and thus is a distinct and separate person.
 
Please as we are to follow scriptural proof rules, show the scripture wherein God says he is a distinct, meaning separate, person.

If you're going to argue against the doctrine of God being manifest in three persons (not one), then at least state the doctrine correctly.

We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father [distinct person's name] and of the Son [distinct person's name] and of the Holy Spirit [distinct person person's name], teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the age.”



 

If you're going to argue against the doctrine of God being manifest in three persons (not one), then at least state the doctrine correctly.

We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father [distinct person's name] and of the Son [distinct person's name] and of the Holy Spirit [distinct person person's name], teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the age.”



Maybe the definition of the adjective will help you. Distinct - distinguished as not being the same; not identical; separate
 
There is no but about it. Emmanuel , God with us, was formed in the womb of Mary by God. Her ovaries did not produce the egg that became Emmanuel. Jesus was formed by God in her womb. The Word became flesh. This is why as has been said, God is a verb. Creator, not person. God is a Holy Spirit. Jesus was God (Emmanuel) There is only one. Not three. God is power, not an entity. God is creative power, alpha, omega.

Please as we are to follow scriptural proof rules, show the scripture wherein God says "Her ovaries did not produce the egg that became Emmanuel"
 
Matthew 1:18-25 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. 19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly. 20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, " Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived (procreated) in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." 22 Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 23 "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US." 24 And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, 25 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.
 
Windsong Once again
Section 2: Specific Rules and Guidelines
2.1: This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Please read: Statement of Faith

This site is not here to be platform to views that appose the site
Any one wishing to have a platform to say , post as they wish ... can build their own site.
Do not reply to this post in this thread..
 
2.14: 1.3: If you feel that any action taken was unfair, it can be appealed. To appeal an action taken against you by CF.net staff, you are advised to start a new thread in the ‘Talk With the Staff’ forum area. Threads in this forum are viewable only by the person initiating the thread and CF.net staff. In this private venue, anyone on the CF.net staff may respond, and the OP can address his/her concerns with regard to the action taken. This forum is primarily intended for appeals to actions by CF.net staff. TWTS area may also be used, according to Staff discretion, for other expedient purpose of communication. If a member agrees or disagrees with a Moderator's decision, they are not to make their opinion public.(see 1.3) edited reba
 
Do you really see these words there? "Her ovaries did not produce the egg that became Emmanuel"
You need those exact words in order to comprehend the posted scripture that in part says that very thing, but in as much as "Sex" wasn't used in scripture but, "knew her" was, "Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived (procreated) in her is of the Holy Spirit, " tells us Mary's ovaries were not involved in the conception of Emmanuel?

I'm not intending to be difficult. If the rules are scriptural support for a position, it is not a hostile act to ask for scriptural support of the sites position that there are three distinct persons .

People here hope to learn about the scriptures. Prove through scripture three distinct persons in God, the Holy Spirit, and the Son. It's part of "Our beliefs", that members attending must concede to. Prove it with the same standard of proof you all ask members here to support their apologetic or theological argument with; Scripture.
 
You need those exact words in order to comprehend the posted scripture that in part says that very thing, but in as much as "Sex" wasn't used in scripture but, "knew her" was, "Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived (procreated) in her is of the Holy Spirit, " tells us Mary's ovaries were not involved in the conception of Emmanuel?

I'm not intending to be difficult. If the rules are scriptural support for a position, it is not a hostile act to ask for scriptural support of the sites position that there are three distinct persons .
I do not believe you try at all to be difficult .
I do not read the mary's egg was not use i do see where God became flesh and a 'egg ' is flesh..
 
7) Do not post opinions of another member's claim of Christian faith. (ToS 2.4)
Publicly judging someone as not being a Christian and/or not following Christ unless they themselves claim not be a Christian is disallowed. That's between them and the Lord. This includes judgments against collective beliefs or groups in general. edited reba
 
To deny the trinity is to deny the deity of Christ. That seems an essential to me.
Yes, to deny the Trinity would be to deny the "deity" of Jesus, but not necessarily the "divinity." I believe the Bible and the early Christian writings are quite clear that He is the "divine Son of God, worthy of worship," less clear that He is the "Second Person of the Trinity." By "essential," I mean "a belief that would cause me to conclude that you are not a fellow Christian" (implying that I believe God would reject you as one as well). While I accept the Trinity as the best understanding for purposes of my own theology, I would have a hard time saying that someone who "merely" believes Jesus is the divine Son of God is not a Christian.
 

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