Does David represent those in hell who will be raised to salvation on Judgment Day?

[Alfred Persson]

1 <To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.> I waited patiently for the LORD; And He inclined to me, And heard my cry.
2 He also brought me up out of a horrible pit, Out of the miry clay, And set my feet upon a rock, And established my steps.
3 He has put a new song in my mouth-- Praise to our God; Many will see it and fear, And will trust in the LORD.
4 Blessed is that man who makes the LORD his trust, And does not respect the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.
5 Many, O LORD my God, are Your wonderful works Which You have done; And Your thoughts toward us Cannot be recounted to You in order; If I would declare and speak of them, They are more than can be numbered. (John 21:25)
6 Sacrifice and offering You did not desire ("but a body has thou prepared me" LXX Heb. 10:5); My ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require. (Heb. 10:6)
7 Then I said, "Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me. (Heb. 10:7)
8 I delight to do Your will, O my God(Heb. 10:7), And Your law is within my heart."
9 I have proclaimed the good news of righteousness In the great assembly (Lk. 4:18-19); Indeed, I do not restrain my lips, O LORD, You Yourself know.
10 I have not hidden Your righteousness within my heart; I have declared Your faithfulness and Your salvation; I have not concealed Your lovingkindness and Your truth From the great assembly. (Ps. 40:1-10 NKJ)

At first I thought David was recounting his short stay in hell revealed in Psalm 30:2-4.

But here its not short, "I waited patiently". Differences are what distinguishes apples from oranges, critically speaking. Its not the same event.

The hell David describes is truly horrible. He is being "destroyed" as he stands, buffeted by forces that weaken him like waves of a sea. They cause him to fall, the miry clay is so slippery he often falls face down into its filth beyond description, stench unbearable.

God turns to hear his cry of repentance, inclines his ear and brings him up out of the horrible pit and sets his feet on a rock, safe from all evil. Total reversal.

David speaks like someone "born again", risen from the dead and now has a "new song". His feet is firmly on the Rock of Christ, the LORD YHWH the Son.

AND this is a Messianic Psalm. John clearly borrowed Ps. 40:5. Hebrews quotes Ps. 40:6-8, and its clear Jesus fulfilled Ps. 40:9-10 preaching to the "great assembly". In the LXX, " that is the mega church ἐκκλησίᾳ μεγάλῃ (Ps. 39:10 BGT).

The context definitely teaches postmortem opportunity, but as a Messianic Psalm it could be speaking about all those who were "appointed to die once, and after this the judgment" which they passed because afterward they are "eagerly waiting" for Christ to appear a second time, for salvation:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

Like David, they are "patiently waiting" for deliverance.

 

[eddif]

It appears we are extremely close in understanding.

Acts 8:34 kjv
34. And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

David was not IMHO speaking of himself but he was speaking the words of Christ.

IMHO David was speaking as a Prophet.
My redneck opinion is that since this is a Psalm (spiritual state for David’s time?).

The words are to show Christ in the future, to possibly to modern Jew and gentile alike. Jesus himself would have read the Psalm and recognized himself.

Good post for sure Alfred Persson .


Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Alfred Persson]

It appears we are extremely close in understanding.

Acts 8:34 kjv
34. And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

David was not IMHO speaking of himself but he was speaking the words of Christ.

IMHO David was speaking as a Prophet.
My redneck opinion is that since this is a Psalm (spiritual state for David’s time?).

The words are to show Christ in the future, to possibly to modern Jew and gentile alike. Jesus himself would have read the Psalm and recognized himself.

Good post for sure Alfred Persson .


Mississippi redneck
eddif

Thank you. There are enough parallels to make it possible, but not enough to make it likely. When I finalize, I'll offer it as "an interesting possibility". That's the best I can do if I don't discover any more connections to Christ in the Hebrew, or Greek Septuagint which the early church used,

The reference to miry clay and pit clearly make this a rescue from hell. The Rabbis got two names for "levels" or "areas" in Gehenna from this text:

I.19 A. Said R. Joshua b. Levi, “Gehenna has seven names and these are …
E. “ ‘tumultuous pit’: ‘He brought me up also out of the tumultuous pit, out of the miry clay’ (Ps. 40:3);
F. “ ‘miry clay’: ‘He brought me up also out of the tumultuous pit, out of the miry clay’ (Ps. 40:3). ."-Erubin 19a, Neusner, J. (2011). The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary (Vol. 3, p. 94). Hendrickson Publishers.

The bôr šāʾôn (desolate pit) and ṭîṭ hayyāwēn (wet clay) both refer poetically to the place of the dead, a place of separation from God (cf. 30:3; 69:2, etc.). The image, which was characteristic not only within Israel but also among Israel’s neighbors, evokes the image of a body being buried."-Jacobson, R. A., & Tanner, B. (2014). Book One of the Psalter: Psalms 1–41. In E. J. Young, R. K. Harrison, & R. L. Hubbard Jr. (Eds.), The Book of Psalms (p. 375). William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

 

[eddif]

Thank you. There are enough parallels to make it possible, but not enough to make it likely. When I finalize, I'll offer it as "an interesting possibility". That's the best I can do if I don't discover any more connections to Christ in the Hebrew, or Greek Septuagint which the early church used,

The reference to miry clay and pit clearly make this a rescue from hell. The Rabbis got two names for "levels" or "areas" in Gehenna from this text:

I.19 A. Said R. Joshua b. Levi, “Gehenna has seven names and these are …
E. “ ‘tumultuous pit’: ‘He brought me up also out of the tumultuous pit, out of the miry clay’ (Ps. 40:3);
F. “ ‘miry clay’: ‘He brought me up also out of the tumultuous pit, out of the miry clay’ (Ps. 40:3). ."-Erubin 19a, Neusner, J. (2011). The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary (Vol. 3, p. 94). Hendrickson Publishers.

The bôr šāʾôn (desolate pit) and ṭîṭ hayyāwēn (wet clay) both refer poetically to the place of the dead, a place of separation from God (cf. 30:3; 69:2, etc.). The image, which was characteristic not only within Israel but also among Israel’s neighbors, evokes the image of a body being buried."-Jacobson, R. A., & Tanner, B. (2014). Book One of the Psalter: Psalms 1–41. In E. J. Young, R. K. Harrison, & R. L. Hubbard Jr. (Eds.), The Book of Psalms (p. 375). William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

Jonah 2:1 kjv
1. Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
2. And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3. For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4. Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5. The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6. I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars wasabout me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.


You were using the word pit and by extension miry clay or possibly quicksand.

I was thinking that sounds like Jonah.
And
Verse 6 is corruption or also pit in other versions.

eddif

 

[Alfred Persson]

Jonah 2:1 kjv
1. Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
2. And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3. For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4. Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5. The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6. I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars wasabout me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.


You were using the word pit and by extension miry clay or possibly quicksand.

I was thinking that sounds like Jonah.
And
Verse 6 is corruption or also pit in other versions.

eddif

Their experiences are very similar. Both talk about the corruption (filth) and floods. Psalm 40:2 horrible (07588 שָׁאוֹן sha'own) pit can be translated "tumultuous" and does appear describing water elsewhere.

 

[Alfred Persson]

This version I posted on my Blog:


He also brought me up out of a horrible pit, Out of the miry clay

1 I waited patiently for the LORD; And He inclined to me, And heard my cry.
2 He also brought me up out of a horrible pit, Out of the miry clay, And set my feet upon a rock, And established my steps.
3 He has put a new song in my mouth-- Praise to our God; Many will see it and fear, And will trust in the LORD. (Ps. 40:1-3 NKJ)

Postmortem opportunity is taught in this context, that is how the Jews of Christ's day would have interpreted the metaphor.

The bôr šāʾôn (desolate pit) and ṭîṭ hayyāwēn (wet clay) both refer poetically to the place of the dead, a place of separation from God (cf. Ps. 30:3; 69:2, etc.). The image, which was characteristic not only within Israel but also among Israel’s neighbors, evokes the image of a body being buried."-Jacobson, R. A., & Tanner, B. (2014). Book One of the Psalter: Psalms 1–41. In E. J. Young, R. K. Harrison, & R. L. Hubbard Jr. (Eds.), The Book of Psalms (p. 375). William B. Eerdmans Publishing

The two major religious schools of Jesus' Day taught postmortem opportunity (See [#B] above). They gleaned two additional names for Gehenna from David's metaphor:

I.19 A. Said R. Joshua b. Levi, “Gehenna has seven names and these are …
E. “ ‘tumultuous pit’: ‘He brought me up also out of the tumultuous pit, out of the miry clay’ (Ps. 40:3);
F. “ ‘miry clay’: ‘He brought me up also out of the tumultuous pit, out of the miry clay’ (Ps. 40:3). ."-Erubin 19a, Neusner, J. (2011). The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary (Vol. 3, p. 94). Hendrickson Publishers.

"He has put a new song in my mouth"

"The phrase “new song” occurs nine times in Scripture… In every instance, the reference is to a song of praise addressed to God, usually because of his salvation of people.
• Sing to him a new song; play skillfully, and shout for joy (Ps. 33:3).
• He put a new song in my mouth, a hymn of praise to our God (Ps. 40:3).
• Sing to the LORD a new song; sing to the LORD, all the earth (Ps. 96:1).
• Sing to the LORD a new song, for he has done marvelous things (Ps. 98:1).
• I will sing a new song to you, O God; on the ten-stringed lyre I will make music to you (Ps. 144:9).
• Sing to the LORD a new song, his praise in the assembly of the saints (Ps. 149:1).
• Sing to the LORD a new song, his praise from the ends of the earth (Isa. 42:10).
• And they sang a new song: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation” (Rev. 5:9).
• And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth (Rev. 14:3)."-Easley, K. H. (1998). Revelation (Vol. 12, pp. 100–101). Broadman & Holman Publishers.

Therefore, the Jews of Jesus' day would have understood the metaphor of deliverance applies to both life and the afterlife.

An interesting possibility. Prophet David by Holy Spirit may have spoken as someone delivered from Sheol after a long patient wait, by Christ (John 5:24-29; 1 Pt. 4:6; Heb. 9:27-28). Jesus is Yahweh the Son and as the Word of God it is He who communicates God, in this case His deliverance. This is a "Messianic Psalm" (Heb. 10:5-9). Dying and rising to life and placed securely on the Rock of Christ singing a new song is reminiscent of the Christian experience symbolized by baptism. That may have inspired John to apply Ps. 40:5 to Christ (John 21:25).

5 O Lord my God, thou hast multiplied thy wonderful works, and in thy thoughts there is none who shall be likened to thee: I declared and spoke of them: they exceeded number.
6 Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not; but a body hast thou prepared me: whole-burnt-offering and sacrifice for sin thou didst not require.
7 Then I said, Behold, I come: in the volume of the book it is written concerning me,
8 I desired to do thy will, O my God, and thy law in the midst of mine heart.
9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation; lo! I will not refrain my lips; O Lord, thou knowest my righteousness.
10 I have not hid thy truth within my heart, and I have declared thy salvation; I have not hid thy mercy and thy truth from the great congregation. (Ps. 40:5-10 Septuagint, Brenton)

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said,`Behold, I have come-- In the volume of the book it is written of Me-- To do Your will, O God.'"
8 Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law),
9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. (Heb. 10:5-9 NKJ)

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As a Christian apologist, my purpose is to defend the truth of the Bible. In this article we will delve into specific passages of the Bible that, upon careful examination, present an alternative perspective on postmortem opportunity. By analyzing these verses in their historical and cultural...

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