n2thelight
Member
Thoughts, does God know who will ultimately believe upon Him and be saved?
I don't believe that He does , not all of us anyway .
I don't believe that He does , not all of us anyway .
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Does God know
- Thread starter n2thelight
- Start date
I don't believe he does either, although most will disagree.
In addition to being omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent. etc., I believe God is "omni-creative." I believe the creation is essentially a work of art that God enjoys in the same way a human artist enjoys the creative process and his works of art.
It's difficult for me to believe this enjoyment would be possible if creation were the predestined theater of Calvinism, in which humans are little more than stage props. Ditto if God had the sort of foreknowledge most non-Calvinists accept. An argument can be made as to why this sort of foreknowledge isn't inconsistent with human free will, but it's a complicated one.
It's much easier for me to believe God created humans with genuine free will and turned them loose to see what they did. I see no way in which this infringes on God's perfection or sovereignty. It was his creative choice.
The argument that God "must" have perfect foreknowledge in order to be omniscient isn't really all that biblical. It flows from the so-called Ontological "proof" of God's existence, which says that the most perfect being that can be imagined must exist. As I say, to me the notion of humans with genuine free will doesn't infringe on God's perfection or sovereignty.
God certainly may have chosen specific individuals for specific purposes and influenced them and the circumstances around them in the direction he wanted, but in general I believe we have genuine free will and our choices aren't foreknown by God.
All pretty much pure speculation on my part, of course. My fallback position would be that time from God's perspective is entirely different than it is from ours and that God is seeing all of creation, from start to finish, as a single work of art. He isn't seeing it "unfold" over eons, but is seeing it as a single work of art in his eternal now. (William Lane Craig has done a great deal of work on God's relationship to time, most of which isn't convincing to me.)
Then why doesn't that include every choice made. If He sees it all from start to finish, that would include the movement of every atom.
Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
The word "declaring" from Strongs to manifest; figuratively to announce (always by word of mouth to one present); specifically to expose, predict, explain (I cut out all the erroneous stuff.)
Isaiah 41:22 “Tell us, you idols,
what is going to happen.
Tell us what the former things were,
so that we may consider them
and know their final outcome.
Or declare to us the things to come,
23 tell us what the future holds,
so we may know that you are gods.
Above God is challenging the idols or false Gods the people were worshiping and challenging them to prove they are gods by doing what you guys say God can't or doesn't do.
Again
Isaiah 44:6 “This is what the Lord says—
Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.
7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to come—
yes, let them foretell what will come.
Get your theology from Scripture rather than your emotions.
Well ... relying on three verses from Isaiah to solve metaphysical questions that have intrigued the greatest minds of Christianity from ancient times to the present is certainly one approach.
The nature and extent of God's foreknowledge, and God's relation to time, are two of the most perplexing issues in theology. Sincere, deep, committed Christian thinkers have wrestled with these issues for centuries and continue to do so today.
journeyman
Member
I believe God knows every decision we make before make it. How could he predict Peter would deny him 3 times, unless to our Savior it had already occured?
If what God has foreseen is the entire human history at once, then the difficulty is to somehow allow for God's intervention into that history. This raises a serious problem. Does simple foreknowledge imply that God knows in advance His own decisions and actions? If God possesses foreknowledge of His own actions, then the problem is to explain how the foreknowledge can be the basis for the actions when it already includes the actions.
Would it then be impossible that God should use foreknowledge derived from the actual occurrence of future events to determine His own prior actions in the governance of the world? Such a God would then know what He is going to do before deciding what to do. Thus, He would be unable to plan, anticipate, or decide. He would simply know. This seems to call the divine freedom into question, making God a prisoner of His own ability to know what's going on everywhere in the universe at every moment. And if God sees history "all at once" and His actions were not foreseen, then God never foresees any prophets making predictions given by Him.
Would it then be impossible that God should use foreknowledge derived from the actual occurrence of future events to determine His own prior actions in the governance of the world? Such a God would then know what He is going to do before deciding what to do. Thus, He would be unable to plan, anticipate, or decide. He would simply know. This seems to call the divine freedom into question, making God a prisoner of His own ability to know what's going on everywhere in the universe at every moment. And if God sees history "all at once" and His actions were not foreseen, then God never foresees any prophets making predictions given by Him.
Who are we to question the mind of God! If He knows the number of hairs on your head then why would He not know all that will be His own before the return of Christ.
Consecrated Life
Member
If Jesus knows the exact manner and hour of our death years before we die, knowing our past present and future thoughts seems like small potatoes for Him to me.
Jhn 21:18
.... when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God.
If it is true, why do I (or anybody) have to explain it? But, I do have something for anybody to answer.
Mat 11:21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Mat 11:23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Here, Jesus is saying that X would have happened if Y would have happened. What is that called? Foreknowledge is knowing something beforehand. But what is knowing would would have happened in the past called?
n2thelight
Member
It's not questioning the mind of God, that we can't come close to .The thing is if He knows then the life we are in is meaningless , and it's not free will .
He only knows those whom He chose before the foundation of this age ,those that were chosen don't have free will , they are used by God to fulfill that which is written.
He chose Paul before that journey on the road, the question one should ask is why and when was Paul chosen
Acts 9:15 "But the Lord said unto him, "Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"
Does this say that Paul was a volunteer for the service of the church? No, God said, "He is a chosen vessel unto me," meaning that Paul was one of God's elect. Paul had gained the experience to serve a purpose for God, and God knew Paul from the beginning. From before even the foundations of the world [this earth age of the flesh].
Paul was selected by God to bare the name of Jesus Christ the Son of God, before the Gentiles, the kings, which are those in authority, and the children of Israel. Paul had a three fold mission. Paul therefore taught on three levels, and it is for this reason that any true teacher, gifted in God's Word, will also teach on three levels. These levels mean that wherever one person is in the Word of God, there will be a message in it for them.
As those people grow and mature in the Word, they could listen to that same teacher three times and each time through, they should learn something new each time. They will think that it is a new discovery each time through, for God's Word builds on itself, and what is important to the baby in Christ, seeking the milk of the Word, is different then the mature Christian that seeks more then just salvation and baptism. A gifted teacher teaches on whatever level the listener is at. That is why it is important that you learn from the Word of God, and not the words and traditions of men.
Notice there is a difference between those men of free will, and those men that have a destiny, and purpose of the elect of God. Those of the elect know deep inside themselves that they have a destiny and purpose for their lives. Paul knew he had a destiny, only he was confused which way that was. He grabbed out at man's way, instead of seeking God's way. When the time came, God put a stop to Paul's way, and He blinded him.
n2thelight
Member
So what is the purpose of this life? Trust I understand what you all are saying .However it's like saying He knew satan would sin , if so why ?If Jesus knows the exact manner and hour of our death years before we die, knowing our past present and future thoughts seems like small potatoes for Him to me.
Jhn 21:18
.... when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
Jhn 21:19
This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God.
Scripture says He knew us before we were born, why is that ,is it because He knew or knows us .
Let's zoom back to satan ,then known as lucifer ,you do understand he was like right after Christ in the hierarchy .
That would be a cruel God if He knew
Consecrated Life
Member
To me it is all about glorifying Christ and His purpose in the midst of this spiritual battle we are presently in .
Jhn 21:19
This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God.
Yes, all the Prophets and Apostles were called, but yet had freewill to accept or reject God's calling. Some of them went as far as trying to make excuses, but in the end they accepted God's calling.
That is because of God's efficacious (Possessing the quality of being effective; productive of, or powerful to produce, the effect intended.)grace.
Jonah is a good example. So is Balaam.
There are many examples, but the Prophets and Apostles that were called were of faith even before they were called. Even God knows those who will reject Him clear up to the last one because of their freewill choice.
So then you must believe in once saved always saved. If God knows who will not persevere to the end, He would not choose them, and thus all those chosen never fall away.
n2thelight
Member
They didn't have free will as they were chosen before the foundation of this world. Example , Paul ,Christ made him come to Him as again he was already chosen
Acts 9:15 "But the Lord said unto him, "Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"
Does this say that Paul was a volunteer for the service of the church? No, God said, "He is a chosen vessel unto me," meaning that Paul was one of God's elect. Paul had gained the experience to serve a purpose for God, and God knew Paul from the beginning. From before even the foundations of the world [this earth age of the flesh].
Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"
So what does it mean to be chosen
It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. This is not reincarnation, for it is appointed for each of us to go through this earth age, the flesh earth age, once and only once. We read; "...It is appointed unto men once to die [in the flesh], but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in.
"Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory.
"Before the foundation of the world", [cosmos in the Greek, meaning world or earth age.] The "foundation" in the Greek text, is the verb for, "the overthrow". This refers to something that happened in that first earth age, before the overthrow of Satan and his angels that followed him. When Satan fell [war against God], one third of all angelic beings [God's children] followed Satan. Then during that war, there were some who fought against Satan, and those who did, God calls "His Chosen". They took a stand, and were overcomers in that first earth age.
God knows the outcome of everything under heaven as nothing is hidden from Him. Many are called, but few are chosen as it is our freewill that we choose to accept His calling us, or close our ears to His calling.
Then you would have to change that one verse. Many are called but few choose.
n2thelight
Member
Take it you didn't read with understanding that which I posted ? Nothing is hidden from Him as He knows the heart , meaning He can read your mind, therefore you can't con Him.
He has a plan ,which He uses the Elect to fulfill His Word as written but for every positive there's a negative .
If God knew who would chose Him we would not be in this age of the flesh