Bible Study Does God mind if idols of 'saints' are worshipped in church?

[reddogs]

Or any place for that matter, does the Bible say anything on this issue or is it silent, lets check scripture and see what it has...

Leviticus 19:4
Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

2 Kings 17:12
For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing.

2 Chronicles 24:18
And they left the house of the LORD God of their fathers, and served groves and idols: and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem for this their trespass.

Deuteronomy 29:17
And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them

Psalm 135:15
The idols of the heathen are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

Isaiah 2:8
Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:

Habakkuk 2:18
What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

1 John 5:21
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Revelation 9:20
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

That seems pretty clear, so how can the Catholic Church bring idols before its people, how can they claim to follow God when they worship idols which He forbid, how can they justify it when the Bible is so clear........

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi R,
Why did you place this in bible study?

And what is your understanding of what an idol is?
I got this from study.com:

The concept of idolatry is primarily a concern of the three Abrahamic faiths: Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. In the framework of these religions, idolatry is the worship of an idol. Idols, in this case, are objects or people that are not God but are worshiped as if they were. People who worship idols are idolators.

Catholics do not worship Mary. They love and venerate her as they do some saints.
We can agree with this or not,,,but to say that they WORSHIP Mary is intellectual dishonesty, unless you can provide a source from Catholicism that states that Mary is to be worshipped.

The link you posted is the Pope who is praying to Mary.
It's believed that she could hear prayer, as the saints can, and intercede on our behalf.

Again, we could agree or disagree on this, but Mary and the saints are not worshipped as God is.

Catholics believe in the Trinity, just as we do.

Also, this thread might be moved to Catholicism by the moderator, we'll see.
No harm done, you could still reply.

 

[for_his_glory]

The New Testament records the history of the church from approximately A.D. 30 to approximately A.D. 90. Nowhere in the New Testament will you find the one true church doing any of the following: praying to Mary, praying to the saints, venerating Mary, submitting to a pope, having a select priesthood, baptizing an infant, observing the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s Supper as sacraments, or passing on apostolic authority to successors of the apostles.

The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century (and following) church did not have the complete New Testament. Churches had portions of the New Testament, but the New Testament (and the full Bible) were not commonly available until after the invention of the printing press in A.D. 1440. The early church did its best in passing on the teachings of the apostles through oral tradition, and through extremely limited availability to the Word in written form.

The Protestant Reformation was followed very closely after the invention of the printing press and the translation of the Bible into the common languages of the people. Once people began to study the Bible for themselves, it became very clear how far the Roman Catholic Church/Orthodox had departed from the church that is described in the New Testament.

Scripture never mentions using "which church came first" as the basis for determining which is the "true" church. What it does teach is that one is to use Scripture as the determining factor as to which church is preaching the truth and thus is true to the first church. It is especially important to compare Scripture with a church's teaching on such core issues as the full deity and humanity of Christ, the atonement for sin through His blood on Calvary, salvation from sin by grace through faith, and the infallibility of the Scriptures. The “first church” and “one true church” is recorded in the New Testament. That is the church that all churches are to follow, emulate, and model themselves after.

 

[reddogs]

Hi R,
Why did you place this in bible study?

And what is your understanding of what an idol is?
I got this from study.com:

The concept of idolatry is primarily a concern of the three Abrahamic faiths: Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. In the framework of these religions, idolatry is the worship of an idol. Idols, in this case, are objects or people that are not God but are worshiped as if they were. People who worship idols are idolators.

Catholics do not worship Mary. They love and venerate her as they do some saints.
We can agree with this or not,,,but to say that they WORSHIP Mary is intellectual dishonesty, unless you can provide a source from Catholicism that states that Mary is to be worshipped.

The link you posted is the Pope who is praying to Mary.
It's believed that she could hear prayer, as the saints can, and intercede on our behalf.

Again, we could agree or disagree on this, but Mary and the saints are not worshipped as God is.

Catholics believe in the Trinity, just as we do.

Also, this thread might be moved to Catholicism by the moderator, we'll see.
No harm done, you could still reply.

Well, it has many text so can be a long bible study or good discussion on this question. Now you can claim that Catholics do not 'worship' Mary or the saints, but I come from a Latin background, and they 'worship' and ask for forgiveness, favors, healing, etc.. from the graven images of stone, wood, and iron with all their might and heart. So I would disagree with your view on this..

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, it has many text so can be a long bible study or good discussion on this question. Now you can claim that Catholics do not 'worship' Mary or the saints, but I come from a Latin background, and they 'worship' and ask for forgiveness, favors, healing, etc.. from the graven images of stone, wood, and iron with all their might and heart. So I would disagree with your view on this..

Reddogs,
You really can't disagree with my view.
Because I'm not speaking about persons that do not understand Catholic theology, and, I'm sorry to say, that's the majority of Catholics.

I'm telling you what the CC teaches.
Then whether or not this gets filtered down to lay persons is another matter and one in which I'm sure we'll agree.

My problem with your post is that you make it seem as though it's the CC that teaches what you have in your OP.
And this just isn't the case.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, it has many text so can be a long bible study or good discussion on this question. Now you can claim that Catholics do not 'worship' Mary or the saints, but I come from a Latin background, and they 'worship' and ask for forgiveness, favors, healing, etc.. from the graven images of stone, wood, and iron with all their might and heart. So I would disagree with your view on this..

Another point: When somebody kneels before a statue, Buddha for instance,
are they worshipping the statue or who it represents?

I've always been a little confused about this.

I think those that pray before a statue of Mary are using it as a representation.

 

[reddogs]

Reddogs,
You really can't disagree with my view.
Because I'm not speaking about persons that do not understand Catholic theology, and, I'm sorry to say, that's the majority of Catholics.

I'm telling you what the CC teaches.
Then whether or not this gets filtered down to lay persons is another matter and one in which I'm sure we'll agree.

My problem with your post is that you make it seem as though it's the CC that teaches what you have in your OP.
And this just isn't the case.

And I am telling you that they claim what is a cover, much like the Pope saying same sex onions can be blessed then the false cover, ok its not a marriage. So what is sin or evil, such as the worship of idols is said to be veneration, the lie or false cover. The deception is good as they get it from one of the best sources.

 

[Who Me]

May I suggest looking at how God reacted to well meaning but wrong actions in the bible.
Moses was told to speak to a rock to produce water, but he struck it.
King David moved the Ark on a cart and God struck dead the Carter who tried to steady the Ark.
Two examples of God expecting obedience and in both cases punished the disobedient.

The Law is clear no images that come between us and God.
That means no praying to them, no ' veneration ' them, no parading them in any shape or form.

If protestants call what is done before statues of Mary etc ' worship ', what do you think God will call it?

 

[JT4444]

Or any place for that matter, does the Bible say anything on this issue or is it silent, lets check scripture and see what it has...

Leviticus 19:4
Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

2 Kings 17:12
For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing.

2 Chronicles 24:18
And they left the house of the LORD God of their fathers, and served groves and idols: and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem for this their trespass.

Deuteronomy 29:17
And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them

Psalm 135:15
The idols of the heathen are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

Isaiah 2:8
Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:

Habakkuk 2:18
What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

1 John 5:21
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Revelation 9:20
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

That seems pretty clear, so how can the Catholic Church bring idols before its people, how can they claim to follow God when they worship idols which He forbid, how can they justify it when the Bible is so clear........

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." (Exodus 20:4)

I think that's pretty clear. Christianity absorbed traditions that were common in Europe and around the Mediterranean when it began to spread through the world, and some of these practices are at odds with the Bible.

 

[for_his_glory]

My question is why do Catholics bow down before Mary doing the sign of the cross before they take their seat before Mass begins? Would this not be considered a form of worship before a statue of a woman that one idolizes and prays to?

Like everyone who has died so far are laying in their grave until the return of Christ who comes in final judgement and why do so many ignore what is written in John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

[WIP]

My question is why do Catholics bow down before Mary doing the sign of the cross before they take their seat before Mass begins? Would this not be considered a form of worship before a statue of a woman that one idolizes and prays to?

This is not true. Catholics do not genuflect to Mary upon entering a pew. The same is done upon leaving a pew. In fact, we did it any time we walked across the church sanctuary. So as an altar boy I did it quite often. It is done as a sign of reverence toward the Tabernacle where they believe Jesus is truly present. This much I do remember from my Catholic upbringing.

 

[GodsGrace]

And I am telling you that they claim what is a cover, much like the Pope saying same sex onions can be blessed then the false cover, ok its not a marriage. So what is sin or evil, such as the worship of idols is said to be veneration, the lie or false cover. The deception is good as they get it from one of the best sources.

What is one of the best sources?

I don't know what you mean by "cover".
You mean Catholics are secretly worshipping Mary but don't want to admit it?
Did you know that there's an ongoing controversy in the CC as to whether or not
Mary is a co-redemptrix?
A lot of this has to do with what the word CO means in Greek or Latin.
One means equal....(like a co-worker)
and one means assist.... (like a co-pilot).

I truly don't think there's any conspiracy in the CC.
It's a little like Limbo.
Limbo was never taught by the CC.
It was an idea promulgated by the laity
BUT
The CC also didn't disown it...
so it went on for years till recently when the church finally stated there's no such place.
Why was it created by persons?
It was supposed (thanks to Augustine in the 5th century) that babies dying without baptism went to hell.
(which is still believed by the reformed today - they got some ideas from Augustine).
So grieving parents had to invent something I'd venture to guess, just to be comforted.

 

[GodsGrace]

My question is why do Catholics bow down before Mary doing the sign of the cross before they take their seat before Mass begins? Would this not be considered a form of worship before a statue of a woman that one idolizes and prays to?

Like everyone who has died so far are laying in their grave until the return of Christ who comes in final judgement and why do so many ignore what is written in John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Hi FHG,
I don't even see statues of Mary in many churches anymore.
However, yes, sometimes we do see persons bowing down to her and even praying before a statue.
She's not supposed to be worshipped, that I know for sure.
Then what persons do can't really be helped.

As to John 3:13, most churches teach that when a person dies they go to where they belong.
John 1 would seem to conflict with what Jesus taught in Luke 16:19.....The Rich Man and Lazarus.
It would seem here that we go immediately to either heaven or hell. Since Jesus' death the gates of heaven have been opened. Before the heaven-bound went to Abraham's bossom and the now they go to heaven.

And on the cross Jesus said: TODAY you will be with me in paradise.
When there seems to be conflicting verses in the NT, I would have to refer to what churches teach.
I know that the JWs believe in soul sleep - but can't think of any other denomination that is Christian.

 

[reddogs]

This is not true. Catholics do not genuflect to Mary upon entering a pew. The same is done upon leaving a pew. In fact, we did it any time we walked across the church sanctuary. So as an altar boy I did it quite often. It is done as a sign of reverence toward the Tabernacle where they believe Jesus is truly present. This much I do remember from my Catholic upbringing.

Look at any service, video, movie, etc.. and look to see when they pass by 'mary', and like clockwork, you see them worship.

 

[WIP]

Look at any service, video, movie, etc.. and look to see when they pass by 'mary', and like clockwork, you see them worship.

Well, I tend to shy away from movie depictions of Catholic, Protestant, or any other denominational representation. I grew up in the Catholic church and still have many family and relatives that are members of the Catholic church and have attended services on occasion even recently and I have never experienced the members doing this or the church teaching its membership to worship statues.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi FHG,
I don't even see statues of Mary in many churches anymore.
However, yes, sometimes we do see persons bowing down to her and even praying before a statue.
She's not supposed to be worshipped, that I know for sure.
Then what persons do can't really be helped.

As to John 3:13, most churches teach that when a person dies they go to where they belong.
John 1 would seem to conflict with what Jesus taught in Luke 16:19.....The Rich Man and Lazarus.
It would seem here that we go immediately to either heaven or hell. Since Jesus' death the gates of heaven have been opened. Before the heaven-bound went to Abraham's bossom and the now they go to heaven.

And on the cross Jesus said: TODAY you will be with me in paradise.
When there seems to be conflicting verses in the NT, I would have to refer to what churches teach.
I know that the JWs believe in soul sleep - but can't think of any other denomination that is Christian.

Do we want to believe the reality of what God has already had written, or are we going to follow a majority rule, tickle my ears kind of teachings. Just something to think about considering there are over 5000 different religions that can not even agree with each other's doctrines. Those who have died already being in Christ in a way are with Jesus in paradise as they have already inherited the kingdom of God just like the thief on the cross that finally believed in Jesus, but that needs to be another topic.

BTW, parables that Jesus taught were stories with a lesson to learn from.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do we want to believe the reality of what God has already had written, or are we going to follow a majority rule, tickle my ears kind of teachings. Just something to think about considering there are over 5000 different religions that can not even agree with each other's doctrines. Those who have died already being in Christ in a way are with Jesus in paradise as they have already inherited the kingdom of God just like the thief on the cross that finally believed in Jesus, but that needs to be another topic.

BTW, parables that Jesus taught were stories with a lesson to learn from.

It's questionable whether or not Luke 16:19.....is a parable.
It might be a parable because Jesus starts it with THERE WAS A MAN, as in the previous 2.
However, Jesus never mentioned a person's name before so many theologians believe this is a true story and not a parable.

If the second is correct, and I do tend toward that, then it does seem that we go to be at our appointed place immediately after death.

Jesus also said the He is the resurrection and the life, no one who believes in Him dies.
So if we do in fact die and lose all consciousness, then what does that mean?

Also, what does this mean:
2 Corinthians 5:8
8we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

It makes no sense if we "sleep".

I've attended 3 different denominations that believe the above.
I only know that the JWs believe in soul sleep. May the 7thDAs.
(I know you're not a JW).

 

[for_his_glory]

It's questionable whether or not Luke 16:19.....is a parable.
It might be a parable because Jesus starts it with THERE WAS A MAN, as in the previous 2.
However, Jesus never mentioned a person's name before so many theologians believe this is a true story and not a parable.

Just because Jesus never mentioned any names in the other parables does not make the parable of the rich man and Lazarus a true story as we know even theologians don't always agree with each other.

If the second is correct, and I do tend toward that, then it does seem that we go to be at our appointed place immediately after death.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

These are just three of many scriptures that state when we physically die we lay in the grave until the return of Christ and then the resurrection happens. The only thing that returns back to God when we die is the very breath He breathed into us making us a living souls.

Jesus nor the angels have never returned for anyone after His ascending to sit at the right hand of the Father being our mediator before God,John 3:13. The resurrection of the dead has not happened yet as it is only our breath/spirit that returns back to God who gave it when this physical body returns to the dust of the ground from where it came from, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. No one is resurrected until the one and only return of Christ who calls His Bride to meet Him in the air and then forever we will be with Him in all of Gods glory, John 5:28, 29,1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.​

Jesus also said the He is the resurrection and the life, no one who believes in Him dies.
So if we do in fact die and lose all consciousness, then what does that mean?

Those who believe in Christ will have eternal life with the Father when Christ returns whether they are laying in their grave or alive at His coming.
1Corinthians 15:51-58 1Thessalonians 4:13-18

Also, what does this mean:
2 Corinthians 5:8
8we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

vs. 1 is speaking about the tabernacle of God that is within us as we are the Temple of God, 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17, and when we physically die we will have eternal life with Him in the New Jerusalem
vs. 2 we desire to be in our new home, the New Jerusalem, that will be ushered down from heaven at the end of days, Rev 21
vs. 3 we are clothed in Gods righteousness as we will not be found naked, Isaiah 61:10
vs. 4 We are the Temple of God, but yet we do have burdens as we still live in this fleshly body waiting for immortality when Christ returns, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54
vs. 5 basic as we have Gods Spirit dwelling in us as we need to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh, Galatians 5:16, 17
vs. 6 we are confident knowing that if we are walking in the flesh we are absent from God because flesh and Spirit can not mix, Galatians 5:17
vs. 7 we walk by faith, which is Christ Jesus as we seek those things from above and not the things of this world, Colossians 3:1-4
vs. 8 we are confident if we are walking in the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) we are no longer following the lust of the flesh, 1 John 2:16

Absent from the body and present with the Lord means that we are no longer in the flesh, but now walking in the Spirit having fellowship with God while still being here on earth.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Also, this thread might be moved to Catholicism by the moderator, we'll see.

Fine where it is, so long as Catholicism is properly represented and the thread doesn't completely devolve into blatant misrepresentation.

Your and WIP's posts are providing a good balance.

 

[eddif]

Just because Jesus never mentioned any names in the other parables does not make the parable of the rich man and Lazarus a true story as we know even theologians don't always agree with each other.

No warfare intended.

Joseph of Egypt is mentioned.
1. Joseph of Egypt had a coat of many colors / Jesus ad a seamless garment
2. Joseph was imprisoned between two other prisoners / Jesus was impaled between two criminals.
3. Joseph saved some of the world from starvation / Jesus saved some from eternal death.
4. hJoseph was on a throne by Pharaoh / Jesus is seated beside the Father God.

I think at one time I saw 20 plus parallels between Joseph and Jesus.

Just a thought to consider.

Mississippi redneck
eddif