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The other questions were not added after the fact, jg. These were the initial questions I had asked you to answer and then I specified that we could take them one at a time in which you then presented the idea of you answering one and then having me answer one.

Go back to those posts and look before them, you will see all six questions presented there.

jgredline said:
Now I will answer your questions when I get home from work tonight.I would appreciate if you answer my questions as well just as I have answered yours.

I did answer your question! I gave you a question, then you gave me Matthew 25. The order is 'me ask-you answer--discuss--you ask-me answer'. This we have done.

Now you are on question 2 and after that has been answered and discussed, I can answer Thessalonians if you so desire.
 
guibox said:
The other questions were not added after the fact, jg. These were the initial questions I had asked you to answer and then I specified that we could take them one at a time in which you then presented the idea of you answering one and then having me answer one.

Go back to those posts and look before them, you will see all six questions presented there.



I did answer your question! I gave you a question, then you gave me Matthew 25. The order is 'me ask-you answer--discuss--you ask-me answer'. This we have done.

Now you are on question 2 and after that has been answered and discussed, I can answer Thessalonians if you so desire.


Guibox
While you did ask those questions (plural) it was before we agreed to the single question terms.

Now I was not aware that you answerd Matt 25. I have read and re read your post but do not see an answer. I will look one more time, before offering up my interpretation of Matt 25.

This evening I will sit down and answer question 2 for you but you need to give me the context of those words in a scripture to give you the meanings of those words.
 
jgredline said:
Now I was not aware that you answerd Matt 25. I have read and re read your post but do not see an answer. I will look one more time, before offering up my interpretation of Matt 25.

I did. I showed through the bible that the 'punishment' is death and that it is the OPPOSITE of 'everlasting life' not the same thing in a different format. It doesn't say 'everlasting punishing' but 'punishment'. Now considering what it is compared to (eternal life) we can use the rest of the scriptures to interpret it for us instead of an apocalyptic dualism into it from a cursory reading of Revelation 20.

jgredline said:
This evening I will sit down and answer question 2 for you but you need to give me the context of those words in a scripture to give you the meanings of those words.

That is what I want you to provide. What is the context of these verses that the words don't mean what they say? Where are these words used that might denote something other than what they say? If a Greek word has more than one meaning, what are the verses where that meaning is applied and another somewhere else despite the same English word?
 
guibox said:
That is what I want you to provide. What is the context of these verses that the words don't mean what they say? Where are these words used that might denote something other than what they say? If a Greek word has more than one meaning, what are the verses where that meaning is applied and another somewhere else despite the same English word?

This is why I asked you for the verses. If I don't know what verse your talking about, how can I give you an answer for what the words mean?

Its like me asking you to bring a ball to the park tomarrow. If you don't know the context of what game we are playing, how are you going to know what ball to bring? Suppose you bring a football and we are playing Golf.
 
jgredline said:
This is why I asked you for the verses. If I don't know what verse your talking about, how can I give you an answer for what the words mean?

Its like me asking you to bring a ball to the park tomarrow. If you don't know the context of what game we are playing, how are you going to know what ball to bring? Suppose you bring a football and we are playing Golf.
Now jg, don't go and make anything clear through a parable! Guibox will not take it literal!!!!

He will invent another game called annihilation or something. :biggrin
 
The Joy of being on a christian forum :-D ,
not much different to any other, no matter what you do it's all a game of tit for tat lol.
lisa
 
jgredline said:
This is why I asked you for the verses. If I don't know what verse your talking about, how can I give you an answer for what the words mean?

Its like me asking you to bring a ball to the park tomarrow. If you don't know the context of what game we are playing, how are you going to know what ball to bring? Suppose you bring a football and we are playing Golf.

Gah! I feel like we are doing 'Who's On First'!!

The point I am making is: if you believe that 'death', 'destroy' and 'perishing' by their lingustic nature means 'eternal conscious torment', I would like you to take me through the word studys and some of the scriptures to prove it.

BTW, not sure if you are addressing anything to me, Solo but I have you on "Ignore" so I have no idea what you are saying.
 
guibox said:
BTW, not sure if you are addressing anything to me, Solo but I have you on "Ignore" so I have no idea what you are saying.
I don't mind that you have me on ignore, but I am concerned about you having Jesus on ignore. :fadein:
 
Solo said:
Now jg, don't go and make anything clear through a parable! Guibox will not take it literal!!!!

He will invent another game called annihilation or something. :biggrin

On the contrary, Solo ...guibox sees VERY clearly the LITERAL meaning behind a METAPHORICAL parable. It's YOU that has the problem in this regard.

AND, the term 'annihilation' is simply another word for 'total and complete destruction' ...as found in the BIBLE, of course ...!
 
guibox said:
Gah! I feel like we are doing 'Who's On First'!!

Well, if it's as good as the original Abbot & Costello routine it COULD be very entertaining ...!
 
SputnikBoy said:
On the contrary, Solo ...guibox sees VERY clearly the LITERAL meaning behind a METAPHORICAL parable. It's YOU that has the problem in this regard.

AND, the term 'annihilation' is simply another word for 'total and complete destruction' ...as found in the BIBLE, of course ...!
Oh now, you are letting your Ellen G. White side show. Do you really need her false teachings to feel spiritual? :wink:
 
Matt 25:41-46 nkjv
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.

44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You? 45 Then He will answer them, saying, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Guibox
Since you had trouble explaining this part of the scriptures to me, I thought I would take the time to explain them to you. Grab some :popcorn: and have a seat :)

In these verses the unrighteous goats are told to depart from Him into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels because they failed to care for Him during the terrible Time of Jacob’s Trouble. When they excuse themselves by saying they had never seen Him, He reminds them that their neglect of His followers constituted neglect of Himself.
The everlasting fire Jesus is speaking of here is found in Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. The Greek word for everlasting is αιωνιον Which is translated eternal.
This word means 1 without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be. 2 without beginning. 3 without end, never to cease, everlasting
.

Thus the goats go away into everlasting punishment into the lake of fire for all eternity I just remembered that the same word for everlasting is also used to describe God. The Bible speaks of the everlasting God (Is. 40:28), Father (Is. 9:6), King (Jer. 10:10), and Redeemer (Is. 63:16). The Lord is a God of everlasting kindness (Is. 54:8), love (Jer. 31:3), and mercy (Ps. 100:5; 103:17) who has established an everlasting covenant with His people (Heb. 13:20). His kingdom is everlasting (2 Pet. 1:11), as is His salvation (Ps. 45:17). So if you claim that everlasting is not everlasting, then you are saying the same about God.

How is the :popcorn: ?
Cool. Lets continue.

The sheep into eternal life.
The Lord Jesus spoke of eternal (same word as â€Âeverlastingâ€Â) fire (v. 41), eternal punishment (v. 46), and eternal life (v. 46). The same One who taught eternal life taught eternal punishment. Since the same word for eternal is used to describe each, it is inconsistent to accept one without the other. If the word translated eternal does not mean everlasting, there is no word in the Greek language to convey the meaning. But we know that it does mean everlasting because it is used to describe the eternality of God (1 Tim. 1:17) :)
I actually fealt the need to repeat myself incase you missed it the first time.

Do u need more
:popcorn: ?


P.S. Do u need me to explain who the Goats and the sheep are?
 
jgredline, I hope you don't mind, but I wanted to jump in here and ask you a question since you started this thread. How do you feel the 'soul' and the 'spirit' are different? I believe the spirit is the ghost within man, and the soul is the emotions of men. Example of this is when Jesus was in the garden He said

Mar 14:34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

Jhn 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

In the Old Testament also it refers to emotions

Psa 88:3 For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave.

Job 7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.

Job 30:25 Did not I weep for him that was in trouble? was not my soul grieved for the poor?

And when in worship the soul rejoices

Psa 86:4 Rejoice the soul of thy servant: for unto thee, O Lord, do I lift up my soul.

With these and many many more, can I conclude that the 'soul' of a man is his emotional side? And that the Spirit as the Holy Spirit is the ghost in the man as in Holy Ghost?? What are your thoughts?
 
fallentoa said:
I'm going to be a bit crazy here and say yes to the question,

Why as I know a lot of you are going to point a few things out to me but I'm going out on a limb here and please don't shout at me all at once lol.
remember this is my belief, I'm not going to explain why I believe it as I don't want to put your faith or yourself in any problem area's.
lisa
Ephesians 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
 
fallentoa said:
I'm going to be a bit crazy here and say yes to the question,

Why as I know a lot of you are going to point a few things out to me but I'm going out on a limb here and please don't shout at me all at once lol.
remember this is my belief, I'm not going to explain why I believe it as I don't want to put your faith or yourself in any problem area's.
lisa
Ephesians 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
 
Greetings:

Jgredline has presented an argument to the effect that Matt 25:46 makes reference to "everlasting punishment" He provides other examples of how the word "everlasting" rather clearly does denote "without end". He appears to think this is a strong item of evidence in favour of the "eternal hell" position. Is this a strong case?

No it is not.

First, he appears to be presuming that the phrase "everlasting punishment" = "everlasting state of conscious torment" when in fact it could also mean that that lost are punished forever in the sense that their punishment of non-existence will never be reversed - they are "gone forever".

However, even if this other interpretation is somehow deemed to be ill-supported. we still need to consider texts like Jude 7:

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Are S&G burning today? No they are not. They are cited as an example of those will suffer the punishment of eternal fire. If they are indeed an example, and if "eternal" always meant "without end", then S&G would still be burning today.

Or what about the following material from Isaiah 34:

Edom's streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch!
It will not be quenched night and day;
its smoke will rise forever.


It is my understanding (and I do stand to be corrected on this) that Edom has already been destroyed. Its smoke is not rising today. Therefore "forever" should not always be taken literally.
 
Hi Folks
Drew has presented a rebutle to what the Lord Jesus said in specifically Matt 25:46.. He is now focused on the words ''everlasting punishement''

So lets take a look at what the actual Greek says about this.
First I will post the single verse in the english, then Greek, then we will look at the grammar..

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. KJV

46 και απελευσονται ουτοι εις κολασιν αιωνιον οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον 1550 Textus Receptus

46 And shall go away these into punishment eternal, but the riteous into life eternal Word for word translation

Now lets take a look at the phraze '' punishment eternal'' in the context of the this verse that was Quoted By Jesus. these are his words, not mine.




46 και απελευσονται (''And shall go away''. This verb is in the future tense that follows a conjunction connecting it to the previous verse.)
ουτοι (''These''; meaning the goats.This is a pro noun )
εις κολασιν (''Into punishment''; Into is a preposition and punishment is a female noun. This is very important. this same Greek word κόλασιςcan can also be translated ''torment'' because of the context that it is in. none the less torment or punishment is a disciplinary reference to the him who suffers. OK LETS CONTINUE
αιωνιον (this word eternal which I have covered in my previous post post means without end, never to cease) οι ( but the) δε δικαιοι ( This plural adj means riteous) εις ζωην αιωνιον (into life eternal. Here you have the preposition ''into'' then the noun ''life'' and then we are back to that very same word ''eternal'' which means with out end, never to cease)

So this verse could read
46 And these shall go away into everlasting ''torment'': but the righteous into life eternal.

So I would encourage all to go do a word study on this word punishment in the context that it was written and spoken of by the Lord Jesus Christ and A GRAMMATICAL ANALYSIS of this verse..

Folks. while I have spent the past 2 hours working on this, this is nothing new. This is not something I discovered. This has been common knowledge for the past 2000 years. It has not been until the past few hundred years that this false doctrine of temporary punishment or torment has started to grow legs. This is apart of the falling away of the church that the Apostles spoke about (the apostasy). This belief to my knowledge and I am sure there is more is held by the Mormons, JW, UR folks, 7th day Adventists. I am sure there are others, but this is what comes to mind right now.

I am no theologian and don't claim to be. I am simple person who unerstands his bible, Some Greek and Hebrew. Most of all I have the Holy Spirit who helps me understand these things.
 
jgredline said:
Hi Folks

??? ??????? (''Into punishment''; Into is a preposition and punishment is a female noun. This is very important. this same Greek word ???????can can also be translated ''torment'' because of the context that it is in.


Really? So by the nature of 'kolasis', punishment which is a noun can be interpreted as 'torment' as a verb? I have to say that I have never seen this argument actually spoken out loud in all the traditional apologism out there. How is this possible when the torment that is spoken of in Revelation 20 is 'basanizo'?

According to this, then both John 3:16 and Romans 6:23 with 'appolumi' and 'thanatos' both mean 'torment' as well? I guess you'll have to prove each of these without a circular argument you and others here are used to doing to 'prove' your assumptions.

Really, jg. How long before you start calling 'white' black and 'black' white?

jgredline said:
So this verse could read
46 And these shall go away into everlasting ''torment'': but the righteous into life eternal.

So I would encourage all to go do a word study on this word punishment in the context that it was written and spoken of by the Lord Jesus Christ and A GRAMMATICAL ANALYSIS of this verse..

I have done so and nothing in 'kolasis' when compared to all other uses of words and context to explain the fate of the wicked give me the idea of 'eternal torment'. The Bible doesn't use such a term (when it very well could have and should have) for a reason. That is very telling, jg.

What you fail to accept is that eternal torment IS eternal life. There is nothing in the context of this verse or any other that makes 'eternal life' apply simply to the qualitative nature of existence. This is an assumption that then is used to explain away the clear teaching the only the righteous have life and that the fate of the wicked is the OPPOSITE. Text after text clarifies this.

What punishment were we saved from? What punishment did sin bring? It was not a lake of fire for the lake of fire was not created for man at all. The punishment is death, not eternal conscious separation. This is not biblical and you can quibble over the Greek all you want. The fact is, is that your initial assumption is faulty and cannot be proven. You therefore, cannot read that into all the texts you are and try to make them fit.

jgredline said:
Folks. while I have spent the past 2 hours working on this, this is nothing new. This is not something I discovered. This has been common knowledge for the past 2000 years. It has not been until the past few hundred years that this false doctrine of temporary punishment or torment has started to grow legs.

False. Origen believed in universalism which would obviously deny eternal torment. The last 500 years (when the Catholic church didn't have a stranglehold on the religion of the people, which is telling) have seen a denial of the immortality of the soul.

Most importantly, we have the Bible that denies both the immortality of the soul and eternal torment. It isn't the Bible's fault if man made Catholic/Greek doctrines took precedence in the minds of the church over God's word.

As for the '2000' year argument...Keep in mind the Catholic Church says the same about Protestants. So unless you are Catholic, using the 'accepted over time' argument doesn't work for what truth.

jgredline said:
This is apart of the falling away of the church that the Apostles spoke about (the apostasy). This belief to my knowledge and I am sure there is more is held by the Mormons, JW, UR folks, 7th day Adventists. I am sure there are others, but this is what comes to mind right now.

Oh please.. It is nothing that scholars through the BIBLE ALONE haven't proven. Unless you want to say the Bible is divided itself, the same 'falling away' argument could apply to you. And as far as the big picture goes, it does. As a Protestant you have denied accepted doctrines that were the accepted norm for 1500 years, claiming 'bible truth' away from the Holy Church.

How does that argument not apply to you? You can claim biblical authority just as we can. Or do you get to pick and choose which doctrines are not 'falling away' and which ones aren't? The Catholics would disagree with you. There are just as many Catholics that can 'prove' their doctrines that as a Protestant you deny, as there are traditionalists that do the same thing with 'eternal torment'.

Of course, you are right and they would be wrong.

:roll:
 
Here is something which shed light on the subject. JG, pull the bones out of this one if you will,

Annihilation or infernoWhether the final destiny of someone in rebellion against God is 'eternal suffering' or 'eternal punishment' is a much debated subject. The traditional interpretation of the concept of 'Hell' is that it is a realm of unending punishment in the form of eternal suffering; the ceaseless conscious experience of torment and anguish. Augustine described it as :-
'A literal fire, people kept burning without being consumed,
in pain without dying, by the miraculous power of God'.
This notion has of course been violently attacked down through the centuries, saying that it leaves God nothing more than a cosmic sadist. One can understand the emotional reaction to such a notion but what do the scriptures say. Discussion on this subject has always been a highly contentious issue, and we must say that any conclusions we may draw must be tentative. Let us make the following observations :-
• Use biblical language with care : the New Testament says very little about the actual nature of eternal punishment; it sees the heart of it as a breaking of relationship with God rather than lurid descriptions. Its burden is to turn people towards God while they have the chance to embrace salvation. The image of Gehenna, "The Valley of Hinnom' does not help too much [cf Mat 10:28; Mk 9:43-47] as it is simply the place of abomination; once used as a site for child sacrifice, in New Testament times it was the city rubbish pit The 'Rich man and Lazarus' story [Lk 16:19-31] needs treating carefully as it is almost certainly just using popular Jewish apocalyptic images, current in the talk of Jesus' hearers; not literal.

• The biblical basis is weak : The case for 'eternal suffering' rests primarily upon the belief in the 'immortality of the soul', which we have already seen is not biblical. It is reinforced with the statement in Revelation 20:10 which says the Devil, the beast and the false prophet are 'tormented day and night for ever and ever' [we shall make more specific comment upon this verse below].
• Language of finality : Careful examination of the scriptures that speak about God's final sentence upon those who oppose him reveal phrases like 'outer darkness' [Mat 25:30], 'eternal fire' [Mat 25:41], 'eternal punishment' [Mat 25:46], 'unquenchable fire' [Mk 9:43], 'eternal destruction' [2Th 1:9], 'eternal judgment' [Heb 6:2]. This catalogue of phrases emphasises the horrific quality and permanence of the punishment, rather than quantity and unending suffering. 'Eternal punishment' is an act of judgment the effects of which cannot be reversed. 'Eternal [unquenchable] fire' speaks of the nature of the fire and emphasises the impossibility of escape, rather than everlasting burning. It suggests the final destruction and annihilation of the individual consumed or enveloped by the unending flame or darkness. A fullstop rather than an unfinished sentence.
• Inescapable punishment : Reaction against annihilation usually suggests that the individual concerned somehow escapes the full deserts of their just punishment. We are not suggesting this at all. The error of most annihilationist teaching is that sinners pass into oblivion at death and that only the just are raised. This is clearly not biblical. Neither are we saying the total annihilation alone would be punishment enough, though God knows it could be. Our argument is that sinners will be raised to judgment. They will see the greatness of the glory to God. They will have no alternative but to acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Christ. They will have their every action and secret motive exposed for what it was. They will see all that the salvation which they rejected could have made possible for them, all their potential in God now gone for ever. They will face the full consuming wrath anguish, 'wailing and gnashing of teeth'. Only when sentence has been passed and the full and just punishment has been received will it be climaxed by the oblivion and annihilation of eternal destruction.
• Qualitative not quantitative : One has to ask what purpose eternal torment and unending suffering can achieve. If Jesus could receive the punishment for the sin of the whole world in the hours on the cross, is it not more likely that God's final punishment upon an individual's rebellion can be qualitative rather than quantitative?
• A difficult scripture : The only scripture that does seem to clearly suggest eternal suffering for unbelievers is in Revelation 14:10-11 :-
' ... tormented with fire and sulphur ...
the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever,
and they have no rest day or night'.
However, this may not mean conscious eternal suffering; 'the smoke of their torment' may refer only to the means of their destruction, 'no rest day and night' may mean simply 'while it continues', but then oblivion. It is clear from Revelation 20:10 that Satan, the beast and the false prophet suffer eternal torment; but the nature of their rebellion is unique. Even here there are those who argue on the basis of Ezekiel 28:19 [Tyre being a picture of Satan] that even their end will be total destruction. This exegesis is also open to variety of opinion.
If eternal punishment does end in annihilation it will only be after the justice of God has been fully satisfied. If in fact it involves eternal suffering it will be seen to be embraced by the love of God; though it may at the moment be beyond our understanding. Whatever the result, the truth remains. 'It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God' [Heb 10:31]. What is certain is that God's judgment will be so awesome and so perfect that there will remain no basis upon which to accuse him of error or injustice of any kind. All who have ever lived will stand in dumbfounded silence, but not silenced, at God's incredible justice.
 
Guibox wrote:
I have done so and nothing in 'kolasis' when compared to all other uses of words and context to explain the fate of the wicked give me the idea of 'eternal torment'. The Bible doesn't use such a term (when it very well could have and should have) for a reason. That is very telling, jg.

Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words: Punishment
3. kolasis (κόλασις, 2851), akin to kolazo (PUNISH, No. 1), “punishment,†is used in Matt. 25:46, “(eternal) punishment,†and 1 John 4:18, “(fear hath) punishment,†rv (kjv, “tormentâ€Â), which there describes a process, not merely an effect; this kind of fear is expelled by perfect love; where God’s love is being perfected in us, it gives no room for the fear of meeting with His reprobation; the “punishment†referred to is the immediate consequence of the sense of sin, not a holy awe but a slavish fear, the negation of the enjoyment of love.¶





Enhanced Strong's Lexicon: 2851 κόλασις
2851 κόλασις [kolasis /kol·as·is/] Two occurrences; AV translates as “punishment†once, and “torment†once. 1 correction, punishment, penalty. Additional Information: For synonyms see entry 5098, timoria.See entry 5859 for comparison of synonyms.


Guibox wrote:
Oh please.. It is nothing that scholars through the BIBLE ALONE haven't proven. Unless you want to say the Bible is divided itself, the same 'falling away' argument could apply to you. And as far as the big picture goes, it does. As a Protestant you have denied accepted doctrines that were the accepted norm for 1500 years, claiming 'bible truth' away from the Holy Church.

How does that argument not apply to you? You can claim biblical authority just as we can. Or do you get to pick and choose which doctrines are not 'falling away' and which ones aren't? The Catholics would disagree with you. There are just as many Catholics that can 'prove' their doctrines that as a Protestant you deny, as there are traditionalists that do the same thing with 'eternal torment'.

Of course, you are right and they would be wrong.

Guibox
As you can see by the two definitions I provided for you, again you are wrong. This is why I said pay attention. Word is a female noun and look at the context.
Perhaps a debate on hermenutics is in order? Better yet a bible study on this.

Now as to How this argument does not apply to me as I highlighted right above us is this. Because in this Forum you are in my turf.. If I were in a Forum that believes the way you do and I signed on to it and agreed to it, then what you say can apply to me in the context of what you believe.

You see when you sighned on here you agreed to the
TOS of this forum.
We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever, and that hell is a literal place of torment where unbelievers will suffer forever.
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=11740

So you see like it or not, you are on my turf. So this is the way that I see it. You are in here teaching contrary to what ''we'' believe here. In the context of this forum you are teaching against the TOS that was established using the word of God 2 tim 3:16. It is also my own opinion that you are teaching false doctrine as you are clearly teaching annihalation that is noplace found in scripture. I have again proven you wrong, but your lack of spiritual understanding is preventing you from seeing what is in front of you.
1 cor 2:9-16,
 
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