Doubts about reported healings and supernatural accounts.

[Alabaster]

God never chooses not to heal people. He is our healer who says He heals all our diseases.

Psalm 103:3 NLT
He forgives all my sins
and heals all my diseases.

 

[ynnebulator]

What do you think about healing done in the name of other religions?

My thoughts are that they can happen, but are not of God.

Remember when the sorcerers cast thier sticks on the ground before Moses and the Pharoe and they became snakes. We all know that Moses stick/snake ate the other ones up, but the fact that the others turned into snakes also demonstrates "miracles" happening outside of God.

 

[Igor]

...Thanks for sharing that. It has helped me heaps.

Your welcome. Strengthening our faith and showing us His glory is the real reason God performs any miracle. It is not for the glory of the person who is invovled. I'm glad that this has helped, and continues to help people.

 

[theLords]

Thanks!

Yes, it was a rhetorical question, but thanks for the correct and scriptural answer.

I suspected the leg healing was going to be fake because of a combination of things. It was just too coincidental that they both knew each other, neither had attended my church before even though they were in their early 20's and had prior oportunities, had chosen this particular time to show up, and one of them just happened to want to be healed. (I learned later that the news of the real healing had spread rather rapidly. This is probably what attracted them to a place where they thought their show would be appreciated.) So when the one of them that was doing the anointing and praying told us we all had to close our eyes to pray with him, I secretly kept mine open and watched. The one being healed (who had been sitting on the floor with his legs stretched out, one obviously a couple of inches shorter than the other) simply rotated his hips the other way to make both legs equal. Then I knew my suspicions had been correct.

They reacted by telling me that I just didn't have faith to believe God could perform a healing.

WOW, caught in the act and they had the audacity to deny it. Would something like this be considered lying to the Holy Spirit or something close to it? (Acts 5 is it?)

Thanks for sharing that. I am surprised anyone would want to deceive in such a manner; to falsely glorify the Lord as if He is so inept and incapable that He cannot manifest His power to glorify Himself in truth.

I have to say that I find what they did extremely offensive. Now, I don't judge their hearts or motives or intentions, but the spirit behind their actions is certainly one of mockery and deceit.

 

[PouringRain]

PR, as someone who has experienced a faith healing in Jesus' name. What do you think about healing done in the name of other religions?

I'm trying to recall if I discussed this or not in a previous thread that I could just link back to.

Mel Tari, in his book "Like a Mighty wind" wrote that the people in his village would go to the witch doctor for healing, even after they were saved, because the witch doctor would heal them, but their pastor would simply send them away and instruct them to pray. (Later they learned about God's healing power.)

I believe that healing can happen outside of the Christian faith as well. Satan is a great deceiver seeking to lead people away from God. (Tongues and other phenomenon are also prevalent in non-christian religions.) Not everything that happens is from God, but I am one of those who believes that God allows things to happen in order to bring about his ultimate will. He does not desire that we be led astray, but he has given us the free will to choose the path we follow.

Sometimes he may allow these healings in other religions, so that he can later show his ultimate power that is greater than any other. The power that satan has is nothing compared to God's power.

But it is difficult to generalize to "other religions"..... because I do believe that not all of the healings would fall into the above category. Without going too far off topic or turning this thread into one of the debates I have seen recently on the forum........ I will simply say that I believe God is faithful and does not forget his people when he has promised not to. So, certainly, healings from God can happen outside of the Christian faith also.

 

[ynnebulator]

I have a few theories about why so many fakers are accepted without been challenged.

We confuse faith with unquestioning belief, and yet we are given discernment but only use it as a personal gift and are reluctant to share our discernmenst with others.

We confuse questioning mans accounts as been in some way blasphemous towards God.

We are in fear of missing out on Gods blessings, so we accept the stuff that is been pushed our way. Our fear of missing out on God is our downfall. Fakers prey on this fear.

I am always conscious that Jesus warns us that even some of the elect will be decieved. The lies must be very convincing to achieve that hey?

 

[Igor]

WOW, caught in the act and they had the audacity to deny it. Would something like this be considered lying to the Holy Spirit or something close to it? (Acts 5 is it?)

Wow, you just touched on an interesting aspect of this that, to be honest, I had never thought of before. You're talking about Ananias and Sapphira, right? They were struck dead for lying to God about the price of land they had sold if I remember right? Hmmm.

Well, I don't know what happened to the "healee" with the faked short leg. But the "healor" (the guy that did the prayer and made us all close our eyes while the other guy rotated his hips back straight again) was not struck dead. However, I found out a while back he isn't doing well.

At the time of the fake healing, this guy was healthy and smart. His IQ was in the genius range, and he was in college heading for a brilliant career. (Although he hadn't attended my church before, I did know him somewhat casually. Just didn't know he was inclined to pull off fake miracles!) Today he is middle aged, where that brilliant career should be in full swing and he should be spending vacations in fancy luxurious resorts thinking of an upcoming comfortable retirement.

But that isn't the case. He is now physically sick, bed ridden most of the time, has came close to death many times with illnesses that the doctors seem to not understand and can't cure, he has lost most of his mental capacity, can't work, is dead broke, has been physically attacked and put in the hospital by his neighbors (I don't know why) and has to rely on the goodwill of a couple of friends and monthly disability checks to get by. I think he truly wishes he was dead.

I honestly never thought of the connection, if there is one, until you mentioned Acts 5. I wonder. I really wonder now.

 

[Alabaster]

This is why healing must be something that happens in one's local church. It gets to become larger than life when it moves out of that safe environment to a larger arena, where people aren't known to one another and pastors are put upon to preside over someone who has been given authority to move in a gift that is often accepted by hearsay.

When the local church is doing it right, healings take place regularly among its members. There should be no need to go elsewhere. It is part of the function of our local church--we are given all the gifts of the Holy Spirit that work together to make up one body of Christ.

 

[theLords]

I'm trying to recall if I discussed this or not in a previous thread that I could just link back to.

Mel Tari, in his book "Like a Mighty wind" wrote that the people in his village would go to the witch doctor for healing, even after they were saved, because the witch doctor would heal them, but their pastor would simply send them away and instruct them to pray. (Later they learned about God's healing power.)

I believe that healing can happen outside of the Christian faith as well. Satan is a great deceiver seeking to lead people away from God. (Tongues and other phenomenon are also prevalent in non-christian religions.) Not everything that happens is from God, but I am one of those who believes that God allows things to happen in order to bring about his ultimate will. He does not desire that we be led astray, but he has given us the free will to choose the path we follow.

Sometimes he may allow these healings in other religions, so that he can later show his ultimate power that is greater than any other. The power that satan has is nothing compared to God's power.

But it is difficult to generalize to "other religions"..... because I do believe that not all of the healings would fall into the above category. Without going too far off topic or turning this thread into one of the debates I have seen recently on the forum........ I will simply say that I believe God is faithful and does not forget his people when he has promised not to. So, certainly, healings from God can happen outside of the Christian faith also.

I'm a little unclear about what you are saying here:

- Are you saying that true healing can happen apart from Christ or that those healings are false healings? Or are you saying that both can happen outside of Christ (1) false healings done for the will of Satan (2) true healings done for the will of God

- What do you mean by this? But it is difficult to generalize to "other religions"..... because I do believe that not all of the healings would fall into the above category.

- And this: I will simply say that I believe God is faithful and does not forget his people when he has promised not to. So, certainly, healings from God can happen outside of the Christian faith also.

It's not off topic the OPer asked this same question!

I don't want to debate (and hope that others will respect your wishes as well. If not I can split this thread and move our discussion to CT&A)

I've been pondering on this for a long time. My spiritual leaders won't give me an answer because they cannot provide a Scriptural one. As leaders, I respect that and won't prod them for answers. So, I have my own musings mostly and am seeking the thoughts of others. I really appreciate what you have said and agree with you (on the parts that I understood )

My own reflection has brought me to several different theories:

- Healings done in the name of another 'religion/god' (outside of the name of Christ) are done through the power of Satan. Since Christianity is Absolute Truth that makes Satan the god of every other religion. (Philosophically speaking. Please no one throw stones, I'm not stating that other religions consciously/intend/seek to worship Satan)

or

- Healings performed apart from Christ (as in not in His Name) are false healings because they manifest themselves in another area of the person receiving the healing so as to allude to a real healing. I once heard the testimony of someone who had tonsil problems and was healed by a Santerian witch doctor. How was she healed? Her tonsils disappeared! When she was Saved she asked the Lord to heal her tonsils. When she woke up the next morning she had been healed and had her tonsils back.

or

- Have you ever heard of "the Secret" promoted by New Agers like Oprah. If not, it's basically the belief that you can will anything to happen if you believe in it enough. The Bible says "do no fear" 365 times, one for each day of the year. If we put our faith into God we sow into Godliness, if we sow our faith into [whatever form of unGodliness here] we reap unGodliness. That's why it seems that bad things are always happening to pessimistic people. They expect that bad things will happen and then reap those things because they put their faith into it. From that, I gather that a healing can be possible because of the faith of the individual performing the healing and the one receiving it. Mind over Matter, and all that. I'm reminded of the movie "the Skeleton Key" (I don't recommend and saw it when I was not a Christian), but in this movie a voodoo-er is trying to steal someone's body to remain eternally young. The only way she is successful is if the person puts faith and belief into her voodoo. If there is a lack of belief she was unsuccessful. I theorize that those who perform and receive healing apart from Christ have success because they tap into the universal Law of Sowing and Reaping in the same manner "the Secret" believers tap into it to bring themselves all sorts of wealth through the power of positive thinking.

or

- The healings of those apart from Christ are real to bring glory to the one true God at a later part in life as in maybe it was done in the name of the flower god and thanksgiving was given to the 'flower god' but in His perfect timing the Lord would reveal His Name and Himself as the power behind that healing. This theory however is my weakest one because I cannot reconcile how God would allow for healings done in the name of another God when He will not allow another to receive His glory (and rightfully so)

These are simply my own reflections. I definitely understand why my spiritual elders chose not to answer my question. After pondering this in my heart for months and after all my theories and conclusions I always come back to this answer:

It's the will of God, and if He allows healings to take place in the name of another god/religion, then so be it. In His perfection He knows what He's doing and in the end "every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." (Hallelujah!)

Another thought I've had is: God is loving and merciful, in His love why wouldn't He desire for the demon possessed to have relief in this life or be free of disease in this life (especially if they will live eternally separated from Him in the next). He loves those who love Him, but in His omnipotence He loves those He hate Him too.

Maybe it's a combination of all those things. Surely, healings outside of Christ would need to be discerned on a case by case basis.

Anyways, I have no idea how Biblical these theories are so no need for anyone to rebuke me.

My official answer to the question: "Why does God allow for healings to occur in other religions/the name of other gods?"

I don't know. Who can know the mind of God? His ways are higher then our ways, and His thoughts are higher then our thoughts.

 

[Alabaster]

So-called healings done in the name of anyone apart from Jesus Christ are not total, not forever, and are meant to steal the glory and worship of God from Him. Satan is a thief in every respect.

God does not will it, ever.

 

[PouringRain]

I'm a little unclear about what you are saying here:

- Are you saying that true healing can happen apart from Christ or that those healings are false healings? Or are you saying that both can happen outside of Christ (1) false healings done for the will of Satan (2) true healings done for the will of God

- What do you mean by this? But it is difficult to generalize to "other religions"..... because I do believe that not all of the healings would fall into the above category.

- And this: I will simply say that I believe God is faithful and does not forget his people when he has promised not to. So, certainly, healings from God can happen outside of the Christian faith also.

The Jews, for example, worship the same God that we do. I state this as a fact of what I believe. But since not everyone on this forum believes this, then I did not want to bring them up as example, because I really did not want this thread to turn into yet another debate about who believes they worship the same God and who doesn't.

I believe they do. And I believe God is faithful to his people and does not forget them. He demonstrated that by sending Jesus in the first place. And I believe God works miracles even for his lost sheep. When healings occur, they are not giving glory to "another god" (to borrow your phrase) but are still giving glory to God (the father). Even when Jesus performed miracles, and prayed, and other things he did so to bring glory to God his father. "Whatever you ask in my name........ so that the son may bring glory to the father."



I hope this clears up a little of what I was saying. I have no intention of turning this into yet another debate about who believes what religions serve the same God as us and why..... and I don't plan to reply to any posts that want to debate it.

 

[theLords]

Wow, you just touched on an interesting aspect of this that, to be honest, I had never thought of before. You're talking about Ananias and Sapphira, right? They were struck dead for lying to God about the price of land they had sold if I remember right? Hmmm.

Well, I don't know what happened to the "healee" with the faked short leg. But the "healor" (the guy that did the prayer and made us all close our eyes while the other guy rotated his hips back straight again) was not struck dead. However, I found out a while back he isn't doing well.

At the time of the fake healing, this guy was healthy and smart. His IQ was in the genius range, and he was in college heading for a brilliant career. (Although he hadn't attended my church before, I did know him somewhat casually. Just didn't know he was inclined to pull off fake miracles!) Today he is middle aged, where that brilliant career should be in full swing and he should be spending vacations in fancy luxurious resorts thinking of an upcoming comfortable retirement.

But that isn't the case. He is now physically sick, bed ridden most of the time, has came close to death many times with illnesses that the doctors seem to not understand and can't cure, he has lost most of his mental capacity, can't work, is dead broke, has been physically attacked and put in the hospital by his neighbors (I don't know why) and has to rely on the goodwill of a couple of friends and monthly disability checks to get by. I think he truly wishes he was dead.

I honestly never thought of the connection, if there is one, until you mentioned Acts 5. I wonder. I really wonder now.

Wow, that is incredibly sad. I pray the Lord comfort and bless him through these trials.

I don't like it when people take joy in the misery of others with "Ha! He got what he deserved" and I hope that I in no way allude to that in any of my posts. It seems to me he simply (intentionally? unintentionally?) mocked God and that has invited the various trials he's going through into his life.

Galatians 6:7 (KJV)
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

It really seems that the fear of God is missing in some generations. I saw that the OPer posted a link to "the story of Marjoe." I am familiar with that guy. At one point in the documentary he throws money around and is laughing and mocking, telling his friends, how the Church throws her money at him while he purposely babbles incoherently to prove he's anointed. He take their money while laughing in their faces within himself.

Where is the fear of God? Actions like that shock me. Do they not realizing what they are doing? Thinking of ever acting in such manners causes me to tremble with fear.

:shudder:

 

[theLords]

The Jews, for example, worship the same God that we do. I state this as a fact of what I believe. But since not everyone on this forum believes this, then I did not want to bring them up as example, because I really did not want this thread to turn into yet another debate about who believes they worship the same God and who doesn't.

Ohhhhh, wow. I understand what you mean now. Frankly, I'm very miffed by the notion that any Christian would believe that the Jews and the Christians don't have the same God. Oh, well.

This thought reminded me of the particular passage in Acts (the reference alludes me) about two Jewish healers who tried to cast out demons "in the name of the Jesus of Paul." - "Jesus we know, and Paul we recognize, but who are you?" -And the demons ripped the clothes of those Jews and scraped them up a bit. That story always made me chuckle. I don't know why I bring this up, though,

I believe they do. And I believe God is faithful to his people and does not forget them. He demonstrated that by sending Jesus in the first place. And I believe God works miracles even for his lost sheep. When healings occur, they are not giving glory to "another god" (to borrow your phrase) but are still giving glory to God (the father). Even when Jesus performed miracles, and prayed, and other things he did so to bring glory to God his father. "Whatever you ask in my name........ so that the son may bring glory to the father."

I truly believe that the Lord performs miracles for those who need them, despite their acceptance of Him or not.

I truly believe that the Lord reaches out to those who reject Him. If indeed 'they' will spend eternity apart from Him, why wouldn't the Father of Lights want to give them good gifts, not because of them or anything they do, but because of who He is and how much love He has. It testifies to His Mercy and Glorifies Him and those who reject Him gleam His blessings. "He causeth His rain to fall on the righteous and the unrighteous."

I admit that I still haven't reconciled these thoughts in my heart. Especially when atheists attack Christians with statements like "if Christianity is the Absolute Truth why can African witch doctors perform miracles too!"

I suppose that attitude rubs me the wrong way. To them I say:

Matthew 16:4 (NIV)
A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away.

After all is said and done, I will have to stick to my official answer:

"Why does God allow for healings to occur in other religions/the name of other gods?"

I don't know. Who can know the mind of God? His ways are higher then our ways, and His thoughts are higher then our thoughts.

Though, I will continue to ponder this in my heart.

 

[Igor]

...I don't like it when people take joy in the misery of others with "Ha! He got what he deserved" and I hope that I in no way allude to that in any of my posts. It seems to me he simply (intentionally? unintentionally?) mocked God and that has invited the various trials he's going through into his life.

Galatians 6:7 (KJV)
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

You didn't come across that way. When I heard of everything that happened to him, I never really saw the possible connection to what he did until tonight. I hadn't forgotten what he did, but had forgiven him so long ago, it just didn't cross my mind until tonight.

He never mentioned the incident to me as far as asking for forgiveness or anything. Although it could be that we just didn't see each other for a long time after that. But I wonder if he possibly never asked God for forgiveness, maybe never realized the seriousness of what he did and didn't think he needed forgiveness. Maybe he does't even realize this is causing him problems to this day (if it truly is). Maybe I'm reading too much into it too! But it sure reminds me to fear God as well as love Him!

 

[jasoncran]

No he didn't.

so paul wasnt stoned thrice?

and he did he not say that i bear the MARKS of the gospel on my body?

what does that mean.

surely God allowed that to happen for a purpose and if stoned then were they healed. i am not dogmatic about this but is possible that he had scared and damaged nerves thus the contemptable speech thing.

if i stone you and you live, you will have some damage.

them's the fact.

 

[jasoncran]

God never chooses not to heal people. He is our healer who says He heals all our diseases.

Psalm 103:3 NLT
He forgives all my sins
and heals all my diseases.

really, surely paul that had great faith wouldnt have said that it was by the mercy of god that timothy was healed for timothy was near death! and if timothy paul would have great sorrow.

and uh david died and before he died read his last days. something about that he couldnt stay warm.

that isnt a sickness now is it? surely david if was going to charge Solomon to follow the lord would also believe the lord to heal him.

 

[Alabaster]

so paul wasnt stoned thrice?

and he did he not say that i bear the MARKS of the gospel on my body?

what does that mean.

surely God allowed that to happen for a purpose and if stoned then were they healed. i am not dogmatic about this but is possible that he had scared and damaged nerves thus the contemptable speech thing.

if i stone you and you live, you will have some damage.

them's the fact.

Many people, including me believe that in one stoning or beating, Paul actually died and was raised to life again.

Paul's injuries were healed. Marks are scars. That's a fact.

 

[Alabaster]

really, surely paul that had great faith wouldnt have said that it was by the mercy of god that timothy was healed for timothy was near death! and if timothy paul would have great sorrow.

and uh david died and before he died read his last days. something about that he couldnt stay warm.

that isnt a sickness now is it? surely david if was going to charge Solomon to follow the lord would also believe the lord to heal him.

What are you saying here?

 

[theLords]

You didn't come across that way. When I heard of everything that happened to him, I never really saw the possible connection to what he did until tonight. I hadn't forgotten what he did, but had forgiven him so long ago, it just didn't cross my mind until tonight.

He never mentioned the incident to me as far as asking for forgiveness or anything. Although it could be that we just didn't see each other for a long time after that. But I wonder if he possibly never asked God for forgiveness, maybe never realized the seriousness of what he did and didn't think he needed forgiveness. Maybe he does't even realize this is causing him problems to this day (if it truly is). Maybe I'm reading too much into it too! But it sure reminds me to fear God as well as love Him!

I'm probably reading too much into it as well! LOL

My walk with the Lord has taught me that there are a couple different reasons we go through trials & tribulations:

- We live in a fallen world and are victims of sin
- We sin and invite them
- We have unrepented sin in our lives
- They will cause us to grow spiritually
- They will cause us to be molded to the image of Christ
- We are being chastised/disciplined
- The Law of Sowing and Reaping

It could be a combination of all those things in that guys life. Who knows? Certainly not I, but as you said it is a great reminder to both love and fear the Lord.

Whatever the circumstances of his pain: I pray the Lord restore him.

 

[ynnebulator]

A few years ago when the whole Todd Bentley thing was at its peak. Our curch of about 600 people was strongly encouraging and sending people over to America from here (Australia) to experience the "outpouring" that was supposedly happening there.
All sorts of alarm bells rang out for me. I asked the pastor, what do we know about this Todd Bentley guy other than third party reports. The pastor was dismissive of my doubts and questions. I kept on at him over a few weeks because I was quite anxious about the whole thing. I just had a strong and continual unease. The whole counsel from some strange angel called Emma, and the violent healing methods etc. The pastors final responce to me before I left the church was " I'm the senior pastor, and if I am wrong then I am held accountable before God" He then went on to say that I was just been negative and he didnt want to talk about it further. (Thats all and well, but so was Jim jones accountable to God, but in the mean time 900 lives passed)
Well we all know the out come of that saga with Todd been intoxicated on stage and also having and unGodly relationship with another woman.

I guess my original question come out of a hurt in relation to this incident. I want to accept that Jesus uses people for a healing ministry and I do, but how hard is it to pick the real from the false. In Todds case it didnt seem hard to pick it, but what about others not so easy to pick?