https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/everyone-goes-to-heaven.51521/
Conversation I had with Jack from ChristianityBoard on July 24 2023 today
Jack says
Satan LOVES it when his messengers convince people there is no eternal Hell!
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Rev 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'
_______________
I reply
Hi Jack my friend,
The verse you presented, Matthew 25:41 describes "eternal" (NIV) aka "everlasting" (KJB) as
https://www.biblehub.com/matthew/25-41.htm
αἰώνιον (aiōnion) Strong's 166: This, like aioníou, is the adjectival form of Αἰών, transliterated aeon, meaning a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end,
Everything that has a beginning must have an end. Thus, for a punishment to be endless, it must not have a beginning.
Let's determine if this is an age. Does the everlasting fire have a beginning? Yes! As God says "Depart from Me", meaning there is a start to the departure. For something to last "forever", like this "eternal hell" you posit Jack, is that it must have no beginning and no end. We see this in Rev 20, where the devil is cast into the lake of fire, meaning, that the devil, the beast, the false prophets were not in the lake of fire already. Rather, they hopped in at a beginning.
This is where we see another adjectival form of Αἰών appear:
αἰώνων (aiōnōn) Strong's 165: From the same as aei; properly, an age;
Therefore, any form of Αἰών cannot be used to prove eternal concious torment is true, because Αἰών aka "aion" always means "age" and thus, it's adjectives meaning "pertaining to an age".
It's like trying to prove that the words "harden and hardening" means "soft" when literally the word root means "hard". It's an antonym! An age, which has a beginning and an end, and forever, which has neither beginning nor end, are thus complete opposites to one another.
God bless Jack my friend!
Jack says
"Everyone Goes to Heaven"
Very Satanic! Leading people to Hell fire!
I reply
Everyone goes to Heaven because everyone will believe in Christ, which ensures ultimate victory for God. As the enemy of God, Satan would not want everyone to be saved, because that means there sins continue to exist. By promoting an eternal concious torment, you desire for sins to remain unreconciled, for people to remain unclean forever. This is against God's desire my friend 1 Cor 13:8 Love never fails
Jack says “Then why do all of our Bibles say you're wrong?”
Jack my friend, there is only one Word of God, like that which is written in the original Hebrew/Aramic/Greek scriptures. You may look at multiple human translated Bibles, which contradict each other. But know that the Old Testament was written in Hebrew/Aramic and the New Testament in Greek.
John 17:17
Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
Jack says “Every Bible says you're wrong! Do you really think that someone must believe in Hell to spend eternity there???”
Every Bible? Which "bibles" are you citing here Jack my friend?
As well, the argument you mention is essentially a null statement. I could say the same thing "Do you really think that someone must believe that God will save all people in order for God to save all people"
Truly, I used to be a Christian Infernalist as well, I believed what you believed Jack. So I say this with kindness. Even if I had continued to promote Christian Infernalism, Christian Universalism would continue to remain true. God bless
Ephesians 1:10 As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Jack says “Now you're a Hebrew/Aramic/Greek expert? Who told you that?”
In what way do I lead people to Hell my friend? I tell people they must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, that's fact. If by Hell you mean Sheol/Hades, then people who don't believe, that's their choice for them to die with sins and go to the realm of the dead. Yet, eventually they will believe in Jesus Christ to be saved.
If by "Hell" you mean the Lake of Fire, then certainly, people will be refined by the furnace of affliction Isaiah 48:10 in order to be convinced to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved.
Christian Universalism is an eventuality. Everyone must become a believer in Jesus Christ to gain permanent life. Yet, with eternal concious torture, where people are still alive being tortured forever, you Jack my friend, have somehow granted people a permanent life even though they do not believe in Jesus Christ! Now that goes against scripture.
Eternal concious torture contradicts scripture, because it grants eternal life to people even though they do not believe in Jesus Christ!
John 14:6 ESVJesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Jack says start quote
I don't know of any Bible that agrees with you.
Luke 13
23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them,
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
You've been duped by Satan. You should have heeded God's warnings!
1 Timothy 4
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
End quote
Within Luke 13:24, indeed, it mentions that there are those who will not be able to enter the narrow gate, yet, for how long will they not able to? This verse refers to how many people will believe in Jesus Christ while they are still alive. Many people will die unsaved, without belief in Jesus Christ. But for how long will they remain unsaved? Certainly, after they die, they still have the chance to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, my friend
1 Timothy 4 does nothing to promote either Infernalism nor Christian Universalism, Jack my friend. Another null statement that does not contribute to any side. God bless
Conversation I had with Jack from ChristianityBoard on July 24 2023 today
Jack says
Satan LOVES it when his messengers convince people there is no eternal Hell!
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Rev 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'
_______________
I reply
Hi Jack my friend,
The verse you presented, Matthew 25:41 describes "eternal" (NIV) aka "everlasting" (KJB) as
https://www.biblehub.com/matthew/25-41.htm
αἰώνιον (aiōnion) Strong's 166: This, like aioníou, is the adjectival form of Αἰών, transliterated aeon, meaning a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end,
Everything that has a beginning must have an end. Thus, for a punishment to be endless, it must not have a beginning.
Let's determine if this is an age. Does the everlasting fire have a beginning? Yes! As God says "Depart from Me", meaning there is a start to the departure. For something to last "forever", like this "eternal hell" you posit Jack, is that it must have no beginning and no end. We see this in Rev 20, where the devil is cast into the lake of fire, meaning, that the devil, the beast, the false prophets were not in the lake of fire already. Rather, they hopped in at a beginning.
This is where we see another adjectival form of Αἰών appear:
Revelation 20:10 - Satan Cast into the Lake of Fire
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
www.biblehub.com
Therefore, any form of Αἰών cannot be used to prove eternal concious torment is true, because Αἰών aka "aion" always means "age" and thus, it's adjectives meaning "pertaining to an age".
It's like trying to prove that the words "harden and hardening" means "soft" when literally the word root means "hard". It's an antonym! An age, which has a beginning and an end, and forever, which has neither beginning nor end, are thus complete opposites to one another.
God bless Jack my friend!
Jack says
"Everyone Goes to Heaven"
Very Satanic! Leading people to Hell fire!
I reply
Everyone goes to Heaven because everyone will believe in Christ, which ensures ultimate victory for God. As the enemy of God, Satan would not want everyone to be saved, because that means there sins continue to exist. By promoting an eternal concious torment, you desire for sins to remain unreconciled, for people to remain unclean forever. This is against God's desire my friend 1 Cor 13:8 Love never fails
Jack says “Then why do all of our Bibles say you're wrong?”
Jack my friend, there is only one Word of God, like that which is written in the original Hebrew/Aramic/Greek scriptures. You may look at multiple human translated Bibles, which contradict each other. But know that the Old Testament was written in Hebrew/Aramic and the New Testament in Greek.
John 17:17
Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
Jack says “Every Bible says you're wrong! Do you really think that someone must believe in Hell to spend eternity there???”
Every Bible? Which "bibles" are you citing here Jack my friend?
As well, the argument you mention is essentially a null statement. I could say the same thing "Do you really think that someone must believe that God will save all people in order for God to save all people"
Truly, I used to be a Christian Infernalist as well, I believed what you believed Jack. So I say this with kindness. Even if I had continued to promote Christian Infernalism, Christian Universalism would continue to remain true. God bless
Ephesians 1:10 As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Jack says “Now you're a Hebrew/Aramic/Greek expert? Who told you that?”
In what way do I lead people to Hell my friend? I tell people they must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, that's fact. If by Hell you mean Sheol/Hades, then people who don't believe, that's their choice for them to die with sins and go to the realm of the dead. Yet, eventually they will believe in Jesus Christ to be saved.
If by "Hell" you mean the Lake of Fire, then certainly, people will be refined by the furnace of affliction Isaiah 48:10 in order to be convinced to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved.
Christian Universalism is an eventuality. Everyone must become a believer in Jesus Christ to gain permanent life. Yet, with eternal concious torture, where people are still alive being tortured forever, you Jack my friend, have somehow granted people a permanent life even though they do not believe in Jesus Christ! Now that goes against scripture.
Eternal concious torture contradicts scripture, because it grants eternal life to people even though they do not believe in Jesus Christ!
John 14:6 ESVJesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Jack says start quote
I don't know of any Bible that agrees with you.
Luke 13
23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them,
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
You've been duped by Satan. You should have heeded God's warnings!
1 Timothy 4
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
End quote
Within Luke 13:24, indeed, it mentions that there are those who will not be able to enter the narrow gate, yet, for how long will they not able to? This verse refers to how many people will believe in Jesus Christ while they are still alive. Many people will die unsaved, without belief in Jesus Christ. But for how long will they remain unsaved? Certainly, after they die, they still have the chance to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, my friend
1 Timothy 4 does nothing to promote either Infernalism nor Christian Universalism, Jack my friend. Another null statement that does not contribute to any side. God bless