Essential vs Nonessential

[Gregg T]

Please refer to the post number where you answered this question.


Are you teaching this forum that Christians have the option whether to forgive or harbor unforgiveness and whether to love or hate, and still inherit eternal life?

• Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:14-15



JLB

You need to read my posts before responding to them. I will not interpret my own posts for you, answer the same question twice, or point out things you missed in them. You do this to often, and I am weary of it.

Moses and David were murderers. I will see them when the Lord returns.

If you have murdered someone in your heart then you are a heartbeat away from perishing, according to your soteriology

 

[billybalke]

So please enlighten us.

Eph 1:13 Also says the moment we believe we are saved.

New American Standard Bible
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Eph.1:13 in the NA (which is a good translation) nor any other translation I know of reads "the moment we believe we are saved". I will agree to meet you, Greg, Free or any on the one-on-one to discuss this. If so we shall go deeper into Jn.5:24 and other passages. God bless.

 

[JLB]

You need to read my posts before responding to them. I will not interpret my own posts for you, answer the same question twice, or point out things you missed in them. You do this to often, and I am weary of it.

Moses and David were murderers. I will see them when the Lord returns.

If you have murdered someone in your heart then you are a heartbeat away from perishing, according to your soteriology

Please give the number of the post where you answered this question. I am interested in reading what your answer was.

Or if you haven't then please answer it here.

Question:

Are you teaching this forum that Christians have the option whether to forgive or harbor unforgiveness and whether to love or hate, and still inherit eternal life?

• Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:14-15


JLB

 

[JLB]

I said this:
" Jesus very clearly taught eternal security in John 10:28 and no one has shown any other meaning of that verse.

The issue of eternal security is clear; those given eternal life shall never perish. Jn 10:28"

Where have you proven otherwise?

In fact, why hasn't my question about recipients of eternal life ever perishing been answered?

Jesus said: "I give them (that would be recipients) eternal life, and they (that would be recipients of eternal life) shall NEVER PERISH.


But no one is willing to answer my question about recipients of eternal life perishing.

Why? Because that would be tantamount to admitting that they directly disagreed with Jesus' words in John 10:28.

But they still do disagree with Him. By believing that recipients of eterna life CAN perish. Even though He said "shall never perish".


There is nothing in the rest of this long post that changes the exact words that Jesus said about recipients of eternal life; they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So, there is no reason to believe that any recipient of eternal life CAN perish.

The words "can" and "shall never" are opposites. I will continue to believe what Jesus taught. That recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

"Never" means never. It never means "can".

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 3:36 NASB


If you disagree with one of the following points of scripture then please use scripture to say why; written out for all to see with the context, so we can study to words and language of the scripture to see if you are changing it to suit your own agenda.

So far, the verse from John 10:26-28 teach us the following.


Those who hear His voice and obey Him, and know Him, and follow Him faithfully, are His sheep and He will give them eternal life when He comes on that Day.


26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:26-28


The first condition we see to being considered as one of His sheep is believe.

• Condition # 1 - Believe

Those who do not believe are not His sheep.

Those who believe for a while, then do not believe, are those who do not believe.

Believe = Sheep
Do not believe = are not His sheep


Believe means commit, trust obey.

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 3:36 NASB

Those who believe on the Lord, and confess Him as Lord, but don't obey Him as Lord, are not His sheep.

• But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6:46-49

Our Master is the one we obey:

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

• Condition #2 - Hear His voice

My sheep hear My voice.

Jesus said His sheep are those who hear His voice.

Hear means to learn by hearing, understand, to give attention to a teacher or teaching to comprehend; Hearken

Hearken in Hebrew thought means to listen with the intent of obeying.

• But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; Leviticus 26:14 KJV
• But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, Leviticus 26:14 NKJV

We find this to be a essential condition for eternal life, as this same John says:

• if we keep His commandments. Obey Him; Do what He says, Believe Him and hearken to what He says.

The essential and biblical definition of eternal life is to knowing Him.

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

Which brings us to condition # 3

• Condition # 3 - Know Him - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life.

Relationship; Joined in covenant relationship;

In Hebrew thought this word is used of a union between a man and his wife.

Mary said it this way -

• Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?” Luke 1:34

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

The condition or test of knowing Him is: if we obey Him

• Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
• He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

• in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God
• and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Key essential elements of eternal life: Knowing Him and Obeying Him.

• Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

Condition # 4 - Follow

Follow means to join as a disciple the one you are following.

Following is the evidence you believe.


This principle is made clear in John 6, where some disciples left from following Him because they didn't want do what He said, because the didn't understand what He said, and therefore no longer believed in Him


61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:61-69


Key verse's:

• But there are some of you who do not believe.
• From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
  
• Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
  
• You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Following is the evidence of believing.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life.



JLB

 

[Gregg T]

Please give the number of the post where you answered this question. I am interested in reading what your answer was.

Or if you haven't then please answer it here.

Question:

Are you teaching this forum that Christians have the option whether to forgive or harbor unforgiveness and whether to love or hate, and still inherit eternal life?

• Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:14-15


JLB

Same thing again . . . it proves you are not reading my posts before responding to them, else you would not have posted this again. Your terms for communicating are unacceptable to me.

 

[JLB]

What I agree with is that whoever hears and believes the gospel HAS (as in possesses) eternal life. At that moment.

And I also agree that those Jesus gives eternal life (that would be recipients of eternal life) shall never perish.

What I absolutely do NOT agree with (reject, in fact) is that salvation can be lost. Or that anyone who has been given eternal life can perish, for ANY reason. Because Jesus said they CAN'T perish. For any reason.


You keep bringing this up, but have yet to prove anything. How is the phrase "whoever hears and believes HAS eternal life" shown to mean something other than possessing eternal life WHEN one believes? Please provide some explanation.

Just quoting through v.29 doesn't do anything for your position, whatever it might be.


I've hidden nothing. But it's clear that your charges/claims have no evidence or substance to them. So, what are you hiding?


OK, either lay out your evidence of what I've distorted, or retract this nonsense.


I don't think so.


So, how does any of this lead to the conclusion that eternal life is NOT given the moment one believes in Christ?

You've failed to prove your point. Or even support your point.

All opinion. No scripture.

 

[JLB]

You need to read my posts before responding to them. I will not interpret my own posts for you, answer the same question twice, or point out things you missed in them. You do this to often, and I am weary of it.

Moses and David were murderers. I will see them when the Lord returns.

If you have murdered someone in your heart then you are a heartbeat away from perishing, according to your soteriology

All opinion. No scripture.

 

[gr8grace3]

Eph.1:13 in the NA (which is a good translation) nor any other translation I know of reads "the moment we believe we are saved". I will agree to meet you, Greg, Free or any on the one-on-one to discuss this. If so we shall go deeper into Jn.5:24 and other passages. God bless.

No, I would not like to go one on one. If one side can't even see a clear concept or principle set in scripture because it doesn't meet their specific wording verbatim..........we will go nowhere.

Moses and the serpent on the staff......
New American Standard Bible
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live."


The moment they looked they shall live.

Jesus Christ and being lifted up...

The moment they believe they are saved....
John 3 ~~14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

If one side can't see this simple,plain,clear concept......a one on one would be fruitless.

 

[JLB]

Same thing again . . . it proves you are not reading my posts before responding to them, else you would not have posted this again. Your terms for communicating are unacceptable to me.

I don't blame you for not want to answer the question that completely exposes your theology.

All I asked you to do was provide the post number whereby you answered this question.

Because you are the one you accused me of being a Pharisee, for believing what Jesus said.

Here are those who will receive eternal life.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

I ask you to show me why loving your neighbor and loving God, which is doing good, is being a Pharisee.


JLB

 

[Gregg T]

Because you are the one you accused me of being a Pharisee, for believing what Jesus said.

This ia a perfect example of your lying and misrepresentation; not a good or righteous work.

I disagree with you because of what you think Jesus' words mean, not the very words He said.

 

[billybalke]

No, I would not like to go one on one. If one side can't even see a clear concept or principle set in scripture because it doesn't meet their specific wording verbatim..........we will go nowhere.

Moses and the serpent on the staff......
New American Standard Bible
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live."


The moment they looked they shall live.

Jesus Christ and being lifted up...

The moment they believe they are saved....
John 3 ~~14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

If one side can't see this simple,plain,clear concept......a one on one would be fruitless.

No, I would not like to go one on one. If one side can't even see a clear concept or principle set in scripture because it doesn't meet their specific wording verbatim..........we will go nowhere.

Moses and the serpent on the staff......
New American Standard Bible
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live."


The moment they looked they shall live.

Jesus Christ and being lifted up...

The moment they believe they are saved....
John 3 ~~14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

If one side can't see this simple,plain,clear concept......a one on one would be fruitless.

Its not my "specific wording verbatim" but rather yours and those like you on the opposite aisle. You have added the word "moment" which is not in any text. Why not admit it or furnish the proof of its existence.??

Now, about Jn.3:14 and Numbers 21. Both the imitation serpent and Jesus were "lifted" up. That's equates to an equal. But "look" in Num.21 does not necessarily equate with "believe" in Jn.5:24. There is your flaw, and I could add to this.

Both you and Greg have declined the offer to discuss this on the one-on-one. That's fine, its your decision. Perhaps Free will do what neither you or Greg will not. Here is the challenge to Free.

God bless.

 

[JLB]

Loving your neighbor is not legalism according to Scripture; but comes willfully and joyfully from the new nature given to God's children.

But, you make loving your neighbor legalism by declaring it as a condition to remain saved. Such as in your following comment:



The Greek text by no means says 'he . . . must love his brother' The word 'must' is translated from the Gk. word δεῖ {must, it is necesary}, where 1Jn 4:21 uses the word ἀγαπάω {to love} in the subjunctive mood {suggesting a posibility or objective probability}, and is properly translated 'should love.'

". . . the one loving God should also love his brother" One of the greatest commandment; still yet, this by no means is a qualification for obtaining or maintaining salvation.

I do not buy into self-righteousness for salvation, works for maintaining salvation, or an agency for losing salvation.

I believe loving your neighbor is a commandment from the Lord, not an option.

In other words we are required to do it whether we want to or not.

That is why it's called a commandment.

Each of us will give an account on the Day of Judgement.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

• He will judge each of us according to our deeds.
• He will render to each of us according to our deeds.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

We will receive one of two things on that Day, according to our deeds.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

• those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth

If you don't think I am understanding what these words mean, please explain what you think they mean.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

So I will ask again, two questions.
1. What does that discipline look like?

The best answer comes from Heb 12:11. It won't be pleasant but painful. I know that's not satisfying to some, because everyone undergoes suffering of some sort in life. And Job suffered greatly which wasn't discipline. But the Bible is clear about the fact of God's discipline toward disobedient children.

Paul did list what looks like a progression to me in 1 Cor 11:30; weakness, sickness and physical death.

2. When is it applied?

When God decides. The Bible doesn't speak of any kind of timeline.

Just a note: it is not anyone's prerogative to determine whether anyone else is being disciplined.

 

[FreeGrace]

I do have a point if one says one has eternal life "the moment one believes" and they cannot find such in the scripture. Perhaps you can find it. No one else has. Until one produces such a scripture or concedes there is none, my point is substantiated.

Why ignore John 5:24? Jesus was clear about when one HAS eternal life: "whoever believes HAS eternal life".

Why should anyone disregard this clear verse.

My point that you've not addressed is where does the Bible tell us that eternal life is given any particular time AFTER initially believing?

Without such a verse, we HAVE TO look to john 5:24 as to WHEN one becomes a recipient of eternal life: WHEN they believe.

Not 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year, 1 decade after they believe. WHEN they believe.

 

[JLB]

This ia a perfect example of your lying and misrepresentation; not a good or righteous work.

I disagree with you because of what you think Jesus' words mean, not the very words He said.

You can call me all the names you like but it won't change what the scriptures say.

You haven't been around here very long so you probably haven't heard my testimony.

I know exactly what kind of a person I was, when I was saved, born again, Baptized in water and baptized in the Holy Spirit.


It wasn't until I stopped listening to people who are pushing the same things you are promoting and began to to study what Jesus and His Apostles said that I began to change and renew my mind with the truth, and got free from my flesh having it's way in my life to practicing righteousness that comes from the power of His Life within me, not from self.

Men will tell you whatever will appeal to your soul to keep coming to Church and "feeling good" about yourself, and paying your tithes.


Loving God and loving people, and forgiving are not "options" in God's Kingdom, these are required commandment's.

• Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

This is in context with verse 7.

• Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.


You can claim that I don't know what these words mean, or I don't understand what they mean, or that I am self righteous because I believe we need to practice righteousness rather than practicing the works of the flesh.

At some point in your life you are going to have to stop running from the truth and embrace the truth of what Jesus taught us through His Apostles.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 3:36 NASB

Interesting that my entire post was not addressed. Not even one point. So why continue to interact with your posts?

I will say this, which cannot be refuted:
1. Jesus taught in John 5:24 that WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life. That is WHEN they become recipients of eternal life.
2. Jesus taught in John 10:28 that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

These 2 verses PROVE eternal security. So there is NOTHING that anyone can show from Scripture that teaches that one can lose salvation. That isn't even possible. The Bible is NOT contradictory.

Your theology has the Bible contradicting itself all over the place.

If you disagree with one of the following points of scripture then please...

And here we go again!! lol

I don't disagree with any Scripture. But I surely disagree with your frequent abuse of much of it.

What hasn't been done, because it CAN'T be done, is to show that salvation can be lost, because of what Jesus said in John 5:24 and 10:28.

 

[JLB]

Why ignore John 5:24? Jesus was clear about when one HAS eternal life: "whoever believes HAS eternal life".

Why ignore the John 5:29? Jesus was clear about those who will come forth in the resurrection of life and those who will come forth in the resurrection of condemnation.

all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

John 5:24 says the same thing.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

• Condition # 1 - Believe

Those who do not believe are not His sheep.

Those who believe for a while, then do not believe, are those who do not believe.
Believe = Sheep
Do not believe = are not His sheep
Believe means commit, trust obey.

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 3:36 NASB
Those who believe on the Lord, and confess Him as Lord, but don't obey Him as Lord, are not His sheep.

• But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6:46-49

Our Master is the one we obey:

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

• Condition #2 - Hear His voice

My sheep hear My voice.

Jesus said His sheep are those who hear His voice.

Hear means to learn by hearing, understand, to give attention to a teacher or teaching to comprehend; Hearken

Hearken in Hebrew thought means to listen with the intent of obeying.

• But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; Leviticus 26:14 KJV
• But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, Leviticus 26:14 NKJV

We find this to be a essential condition for eternal life, as this same John says:

• if we keep His commandments. Obey Him; Do what He says, Believe Him and hearken to what He says.

The essential and biblical definition of eternal life is to knowing Him.

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4



JLB

 

[JLB]

Interesting that my entire post was not addressed. Not even one point. So why continue to interact with your posts?

I will say this, which cannot be refuted:
1. Jesus taught in John 5:24 that WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life. That is WHEN they become recipients of eternal life.
2. Jesus taught in John 10:28 that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

These 2 verses PROVE eternal security. So there is NOTHING that anyone can show from Scripture that teaches that one can lose salvation. That isn't even possible. The Bible is NOT contradictory.

Your theology has the Bible contradicting itself all over the place.

No scripture here!


Nothing to discuss except your opinion.

No thanks.




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

All opinion. No scripture.

Please explain how John 5:24 and John 10:28 do NOT teach eternal security. From THOSE verses, not all the pet ones you've been abusing.

5:24 teaches WHEN one becomes a recipient (HAS) eternal life. 10:28 teaches that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

If my "opinion" is wrong, then it should be easy to show what they are in fact teaching.

Please proceed.

 

[JLB]

I don't disagree with any Scripture. But I surely disagree with your frequent abuse of much of it.

• all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

JLB