Eternal security or conditional security?

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't have to prove an irrational and illogical claim. My claim is logical and rational. A physical birth cannot be UN-done. If it can, the onus is on the one making the claim that it can be un-done.

So, please proceed.

What are the reasons that a physical birth can not be undone? I know what they are. But since it's your argument, tell us what those reasons are and then we'll apply them to the spiritual birth to see if the analogy is indeed 'perfect' as you have said it is. That's all. You should be quite willing to do this. I don't understand your reluctance to explain your own argument.

Okay, back to the debate, minus the stuff WIP says to get rid of....

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I trust you see that I don't agree with your form of legalism.
..according to your legalistic views....if you fail to forgive one person..the Father will reinstate your unforgiven debt.

Which part of Matthew 18:21-35 is not true? Not being troublesome. I'm just curious which part of the passage you find to be not true. That's all.
" 21Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

23“For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24“When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25“But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26“So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28“But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29“So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30“But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31“So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.” (Matthew 18:21-35 NASB)

If I remember correctly, I was careful to allude in my post about this passage that I don't think God reinstates a person's sin guilt in a legalistic manner. I think he is patient and longsuffering and will warn a person well in advance, and many times, before taking the drastic action of striping a person of their forgiveness who has trampled on that forgiveness. The only thing a person really need fear the most about the above warning from Jesus is ignoring him when he convicts you that you are not treating others with the same grace that you yourself have received. That's the part that will ultimately cause God to do what he plainly said he will do with unforgiving 'believers'.

 

[JLB]

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, Romans 8:1...go look t up.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:13


Paul said the same thing to the Church at Galatia -

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21


Paul said it to the Church at Corinth -

8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren!
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:8-10


Paul said it this to the Church at Ephesus -

5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7


Look at the words concerning those who practice the works of the flesh...

Let no one deceive you with empty words...because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.


Now read Romans 8:1 again, without leaving out and of the words -

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We disagree on what it means to "abide". That's something WE do and in fact are commanded to do. Does that equate into a command to keep yourself saved? That would be rather ridiculous, don't you think?

Does that change the truth that you have to continue to abide in the word you first heard so that you will continue to abide in Christ and as a result have eternal life? How does an argument for who does the abiding make it so you don't really have to continue in the word you first heard in order to have eternal life?

And so we don't forget, here are the passages that we're talking about....

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 John 2:23-25, 1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

"9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. " (2 John 9 NASB)

See, the condition for abiding in the Son and having eternal life is that what you heard in the beginning remains in you. If you do not meet that condition for abiding in the teaching of Christ (the word of the gospel you heard in the beginning remaining in you) then you won't have the Son, and if you don't have the Son then you don't have eternal life. Read it. The words are plain as day.

 

[Cygnus]

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

Face palm.....He's describing the attributes of a christian.

 

[JLB]

How true.
What you fail to understand is that theology presents judicial forgiveness and parental forgiveness.
Let me show you the difference:
- Judicial forgiveness deals with sin's penalty — parental forgiveness deals with sin's consequences.
- Judicial forgiveness frees us from the condemnation of the righteous, omniscient Judge whom we have wronged — parental forgiveness sets things right with a grieving and displeased but loving Father.
- Judicial forgiveness provides an unshakeable standing before the throne of divine judgment — parental forgiveness deals with the state of our sanctification at any given moment and is dispensed from a throne of divine grace. So the forgiveness Christians are supposed to seek in their daily walk is not pardon from an angry Judge, but mercy from a grieved Father. REF
I trust you stand corrected on that issue.

Let's see what the scriptures say about those who practice the works of the flesh.

5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7


I guess the term "empty words" comes from not having any scripture to back up what you say. [ Your post that I quoted does not have a single scripture]

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.Therefore do not be partakers with them.


If a Christian does not want to partake of God's wrath, then it would be advisable, according to the scriptures, that they turn away from practicing the works of the flesh.


Please consider these words of Paul - because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.Therefore do not be partakers with them.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As I have said before....if you can actually lose your salvation...you already have.

Why does OSAS apply to people who have believed but who then trample on the blood of Christ in a return to their old life of sin (Hebrews 10:26-31, but it doesn't apply to people who think they can lose their salvation and, therefore, have?

 

[JLB]

Face palm.....He's describing the attributes of a christian.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:13


There is no condemnation to those who do not walk according to the flesh.


Please use scripture in your post's.


JLB

 

[Cygnus]

Why does OSAS apply to people who have believed but who then trample on the blood of Christ in a return to their old life of sin (Hebrews 10:26-31, but it doesn't apply to people who think they can lose their salvation and, therefore, have?

Jethro...let me say it agin to you. iI you can actually lose your salvation...you already have.

But to address Hebrews..why do you insist "received the knowledge of the truth," equals salvation?

I know of several people who have come to church...received the knowledge of the truth,...and were not saved. Don't you?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Except LOS doctrine has zero verses that say that, mean that, or even hint at that.

How do the following passages not even hint that the condition for eternal life is that you continue to hold fast and abide in the teaching of Christ?

"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 John 2:23-25, 1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

"9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. " (2 John 9 NASB)

The words are very clear. If you the word you heard in the beginning doesn't abide in you you don't have Christ. If you don't have Christ you do not have eternal life. These words are as plain as day.

 

[JLB]

Jethro...let me say it agin to you. iI you can actually lose your salvation...you already have.

Makes no sense.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro...let me say it agin to you. iI you can actually lose your salvation...you already have.

I have never stopped believing in the forgiveness of God in Christ. So how is it that I could have lost my salvation according to non-OSAS doctrine?

But to address Hebrews..why do you insist "received the knowledge of the truth," equals salvation?

No, no. It's people sanctified by the blood of Jesus that equals salvation.
"29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10: NASB)

The author is talking to and about believers, people sanctified by the blood of Christ, not unbelievers.

I know of several people who have come to church...received the knowledge of the truth,...and were not saved. Don't you?

I know people who have heard it and were not saved. Received it implies accepting it, not rejecting it in unbelief (1 John 5:10 NASB). But we don't need to argue this particular point since the author of Hebrews plainly refers to people who have been sanctified by the blood of Christ.

 

[chessman]

8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren!
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:8-10

The way to copy and post this passage without cheating and thievery would be to cite the copyrighted work as follows:

1 Corinthians 6:8-9 (NKJV) No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

Yet, I don't think it de-saved you then nor all the other times you do the same thing.

ToS
2.7: All Bible verses and passages must be referenced (NASB, NIV, etc.) unless it is public domain like the KJV, YLT, etc.

Info on copyrights here:
http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/

 

[MarkT]

The point of who "My sheep" are is found in v.9.

Read the entire chapter.

It certainly does mean that. No one "gets saved" by entering the kingdom. Here is the verse: "“I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

One is saved by believing in Him. Hence, to "enter" means to believe.

Enter does not mean believe. [edited]

v.9 is quite clear: those who "enter through Him ARE SAVED". No one gets saved by entering into the kingdom. Only the saved WILL enter the kingdom.

Jesus is the door of the sheep. Anyone who enters through him is saved. The sheep enter the kingdom through him. [edited]

I said this:
"Well, the "so what?" is that all believers are given eternal life, and none of them will perish."

That is exactly what Jesus said in John 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "Them" refers to His sheep, which refers back to v.9 as those who "enter through Him". The reason one is saved is because they HAVE eternal life.

Huh?

And Jesus said exactly that back in John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Hence, when one believes, they have eternal life.

Hence, not false.

[edited] “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven". Mt. 7:21

It's already been shown that the context for who His sheep are is in v.9. It's those who enter through Him who are saved and are His sheep.

Read the whole chapter.

In spite of all the works those people did, they were basing their appeal for entering the kingdom on their works, NOT on the finished work of Christ on the cross for their sins.

Hence, they were never believers.

False. They are believers, but they are not his sheep. Therefore Jesus said, "I never knew you".

There is NO mention of any "promise" of a gift in Rom 11;29, or anywhere else in Scripture, [edited]. What is mentioned is actual gifts of God. And Paul was clear about what he considered to be gifts of God:
spiritual gifts in 1:11
justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17
eternal life in 6:23

These are what he meant because he described them as gifts of God.


My response proves why it IS specific regarding eternal life. And justification and spiritual gifts.


Please prove this from Scripture.


Please cite any verse in Romans that supports this idea.


What verse shows that Paul was "specifically referring to a promise He made to Jacob".

Romans 11:25-27Revised Standard Version (RSV)
25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, 26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

The Deliverer was promised Jacob. The taking away their sins, the gifts and the call of God.

 

[chessman]

Face palm.....He's describing the attributes of a christian.

’Tis so sweet to walk with Jesus,
Step by step and day by day;
Stepping in His very footprints,
Walking with Him all the way.
Step by step, step by step,
I would walk with Jesus,
All the day, all the way,
Keeping step with Jesus.

’Tis so safe to walk with Jesus,
Leaning hard upon His arm,
Following closely where He leads us,
None can hurt and naught can harm.
...
​

Albert Benjamin Simpson(1843-1919)

​

 

[FreeGrace]

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, Romans 8:1...go look t up.
...If we as christians still need our future sins forgiven...then this verse clearly contradics your mistaken theology.



How true.
What you fail to understand is that theology presents judicial forgiveness and parental forgiveness.
Let me show you the difference:
- Judicial forgiveness deals with sin's penalty — parental forgiveness deals with sin's consequences.
- Judicial forgiveness frees us from the condemnation of the righteous, omniscient Judge whom we have wronged — parental forgiveness sets things right with a grieving and displeased but loving Father.
- Judicial forgiveness provides an unshakeable standing before the throne of divine judgment — parental forgiveness deals with the state of our sanctification at any given moment and is dispensed from a throne of divine grace. So the forgiveness Christians are supposed to seek in their daily walk is not pardon from an angry Judge, but mercy from a grieved Father. REF
I trust you stand corrected on that issue.

...see above. judicial forgiveness and parental forgiveness

Thank you for such a thoughtful and excellent explanation of what 1 John 1:9 is about.

 

[FreeGrace]

What are the reasons that a physical birth can not be undone? I know what they are. But since it's your argument

Once again I will point out who started this argument: from your own post was the claim that physical births can be un-done. The point continue to be this: since this is your claim, the onus is yours to prove that a physical birth CAN be undone. You've also claimed that you know what they are.

Why haven't these reasons been presented yet? If that can be proved, obvious my point (not argument) is refuted.

tell us what those reasons are and then we'll apply them to the spiritual birth to see if the analogy is indeed 'perfect' as you have said it is.

My point has always been that the physical birth is a permanent relationship between the parent and child. If that can be refuted, be my guest. But I don't believe it can be.

So, just as the physical relationship in physical birth is permanent, so is the spiritual relationship between God and His born again children (not fallen angels).

That's all. You should be quite willing to do this. I don't understand your reluctance to explain your own argument.

The argument is all yours. But it seems there is a huge amount of unwillingness on your part to explain HOW a physical birth can be un-done. What's the hold-up?

 

[FreeGrace]

Does that change the truth that you have to continue to abide in the word you first heard so that you will continue to abide in Christ and as a result have eternal life?

I've never said one has to abide in Christ to have eternal life, or even to continue to have eternal life, so the question is irrelevant.

How does an argument for who does the abiding make it so you don't really have to continue in the word you first heard in order to have eternal life?

Eternal life isn't about abiding.

And so we don't forget, here are the passages that we're talking about....

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 John 2:23-25, 1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

"9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. " (2 John 9 NASB)

Like I said, abiding isn't about eternal life.

See, the condition for abiding in the Son and having eternal life is that what you heard in the beginning remains in you.

No verse says that.

If you do not meet that condition for abiding in the teaching of Christ (the word of the gospel you heard in the beginning remaining in you) then you won't have the Son, and if you don't have the Son then you don't have eternal life. Read it. The words are plain as day.

They are plain. But I totally disagree with what you think they mean.

 

[FreeGrace]

How do the following passages not even hint that the condition for eternal life is that you continue to hold fast and abide in the teaching of Christ?

"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 John 2:23-25, 1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

"9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. " (2 John 9 NASB)

The words are very clear. If you the word you heard in the beginning doesn't abide in you you don't have Christ. If you don't have Christ you do not have eternal life. These words are as plain as day.

Yes, the words are very clear. But none of them say "if the word doesn't abide in you you don't have Christ".

Further, the context for the entire epistle is about fellowship.

 

[FreeGrace]

Read the entire chapter.
Enter does not mean believe. Get yourself a dictionary.
Jesus is the door of the sheep. Anyone who enters through him is saved. The sheep enter the kingdom through him. Have you heard the good news of the kingdom? The gospel of the kingdom is what we preach.
Huh?
Apparently you don't hear his word. “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven". Mt. 7:21
Read the whole chapter.
False. They are believers, but they are not his sheep. Therefore Jesus said, "I never knew you".
Romans 11:25-27Revised Standard Version (RSV)
25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, 26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
The Deliverer was promised Jacob. The taking away their sins, the gifts and the call of God.

I don't even know where to start with all this. So I won't. Have a good evening.