Examining Lazurus and the rich man

[francisdesales]

an affirmative response that the Torah is quite clear as to what happens to man at death.

And so you then quote a verse from Eccl...

I have a tremendous amount of "inherent authority" because I am a child of the Living God

Only in your own mind.

If the dead come back to the living in anyway it's a demon. posted by RND...

Such statements from you do not bode well for OTHER people listening to your so-called "authority"...

Please forgive me, but I don't have anymore time to speak with an argumentative fellow who contradicts his own position and then is so proud of his own authority while posting such statements about coming back from the dead and demons... It seems obvious that you cannot be trusted.

Adios...

 

[RND]

Now, we know that this isn't true, if it is, we would have to rip out a large portion of the new testament and throw it away.

There is nothing in the NT that says man roasts, toasts, and fricassees forever.

There is indeed two separate fates for the righteous and for the wicked.

And both are resurrected.

Even if you believe in the annihilation of the wicked, you also believe in the resurrection and everlasting life of those who are saved, do you not?

Of course.

So, these words of Solomon, must be examined carefully to see why he is making this very false claim.

A "false claim" in the Bible? Perish the thought! You actually think God allowed that in light of the other scriptures I presented? Wow!

Now, why Solomon is going off on a nonfactual and depressing rant is interesting, but not the subject of this thread. Suffice it to say though, that although Solomon did rant and rave in Ecclesiastes, he still affirmed that after death the body returns to dust and the spirit returns to God.

Yeah, the breath we breath goes back to God, not a magical inner being. You are repeating the same anthropomorphic dualism that the Pharisees did Handy! No wonder you don't want to hear the truth about this parable.

If Eccl 9:5-6 were our only texts as to the ultimate fate of man, then I would be convinced that there is nothing for us but this life and this life alone, in which case, I wouldn't be a Christian. However, there are many, many texts which affirm that this is anything but true and that there is eternal reward for those who seek Him...and eternal punishment for those do not.

And yet Solomon believed in eternal life through Christ:

Ecc 3:11 He hath made every [thing] beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for [there is] a time there for every purpose and for every work.

 

[RND]

And so you then quote a verse from Eccl...

Yes I did.

Only in your own mind.

Nope, word of God. I put my pants on the same way your "papa" does. He is no better than me or anyone else.

If the dead come back to the living in anyway it's a demon. posted by RND...

Such statements from you do not bode well for OTHER people listening to your so-called "authority"...

Hmmm, then maybe God was mistaken when He outlawed witchcraft and divination.

Please forgive me, but I don't have anymore time to speak with an argumentative fellow who contradicts his own position and then is so proud of his own authority while posting such statements about coming back from the dead and demons...

Or you have nothing from the Bible to counter what I say.

It seems obvious that you cannot be trusted.

It seems to me that you have to leave because you cannot argue using the Bible

Adios...

Enjoy your pig.

 

[RND]

On Revelations, yes, that was what i was refering to - saints aware and "alive", speaking to God.

then if this notion is true then it makes the resurrection unnecessary and renders the OT useless and contradictory.

Well, I appreciate your openess to my opinion on this.

Opinion or false doctrine?

It does draw us closer to those members of the Body of Christ who have gone before us "marked with the sign of the faith".

How, they are in the grave awaiting resurrection day.

If I can ask you and Handy to pray for me, why can't I ask my dear saintly Grandmothers to pray for me.

Because they are resting in the tomb awaiting resurrection.

Some here would prefer to blindly dismiss it without even thinking about it, though...

And some will use the Bible to find the answer.

I also appreciate Handy's openess to the possibility...

False doctrine is alluring.

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Your blessed grandmother's next waking thoughts are basking in the wonderful light and immeasurable joy in the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

 

[handy]

I'm awaiting your response to the verses you asked for.

Meanwhile the Bible is riddled with the false claims of men. Aaron said of the golden calf, "This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt." David told Ahimelech "The king has commissioned me with a matter, and has said to me, "Let know one know anything about the matter on which I am sending you..." An outright lie, that. Many, many examples in the Scriptures of falsehoods.

Solomon was a man, like any other. A lot of what he said in Eccl was false. There is a reason for it, but again that's not the subject of this thread. Perhaps after this discussion, we can study the conundrums of Ecclesiastics.


Now, since I've shared those texts you asked for regarding coveting and spiritual infidelity, can you please share, from the Scriptures clear and concise texts that make your interpretation of the infidelity of the Pharisee's and the purely allegorical nature of the the parable the one that makes more sense than the clear message of the context?

 

[RND]

I'm awaiting your response to the verses you asked for.

I didn't see another post of yours.

Meanwhile the Bible is riddled with the false claims of men. Aaron said of the golden calf, "This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt." David told Ahimelech "The king has commissioned me with a matter, and has said to me, "Let know one know anything about the matter on which I am sending you..." An outright lie, that. Many, many examples in the Scriptures of falsehoods.

These are examples of the lies men tell. What you are stating is that Solomon was lying about doctrine. Two different things.

Solomon was a man, like any other. A lot of what he said in Eccl was false. There is a reason for it, but again that's not the subject of this thread. Perhaps after this discussion, we can study the conundrums of Ecclesiastics.

Perhaps. But to say Ecclesiastes is false is to claim the whole Bible is false.

Now, since I've shared those texts you asked for regarding coveting and spiritual infidelity, can you please share, from the Scriptures clear and concise texts that make your interpretation of the infidelity of the Pharisee's and the purely allegorical nature of the the parable the one that makes more sense than the clear message of the context?

See the OP.

 

[handy]

Here was the post I was referring to:

What I don't agree with is that spiritual infidelity always means following after pagan beliefs.

Great! Show me where it means something else.

James 4:1-4 “What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source of your pleasures that wage war in your members? You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. And you are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures.
You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God?

Here, James is equating worldly Christians with spiritual infidelity. Back to this one later.

Colossians 3:5 “Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry."

Idolatry is spiritual infidelity and in the list Paul provides greed is what amounts to idolatry, not “pagan beliefsâ€.

In this case, spiritual infidelity can be placing the love of money above the love of God.

That's called coveting. I'll tell you what, if you can show me one other place in the Bible where the love of money is equated with adultery/harlotry I'd consider it. Get to digging cause you won't find it.

Well, I didn't find one place where coveting is equated with adultery/harlotry/spiritual infidelity, I found three.

Going back to James 4:1-4, “you lust and do not haveâ€... “you are envious and cannot obtainâ€... sounds like coveting to me, coveting that spurs James to call these Christians adulteresses.

1 Timothy 6:9-10 “But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang.

...some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith...spiritual infidelity.

Ephesians 5:5 "For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

...or covetous man, who is an idolater...

I most likely could dig up some more, but it's after 1:00 am and I've a long day tomorrow. We're having family and friends over to bring in the New Year. I may or may not look in on this thread in the morning.

 

[RND]

James 4:1-4 “What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source of your pleasures that wage war in your members? You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. And you are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures.
You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God?

Here, James is equating worldly Christians with spiritual infidelity. Back to this one later.

Yeah, "worldly" Christians. James is actually calling those aligned with the world and the doctrines of the world adulteresses. He's not calling those that covet adulteresses.

Colossians 3:5 “Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry."

Idolatry is spiritual infidelity and in the list Paul provides greed is what amounts to idolatry, not “pagan beliefsâ€.

I think you are stretching quite a bit here frankly.

Idolatry is one aspect that led to the adultery of Israel. But this verse certainly doesn't equate "coveting money" with adultery.

Well, I didn't find one place where coveting is equated with adultery/harlotry/spiritual infidelity, I found three.

Going back to James 4:1-4, “you lust and do not haveâ€... “you are envious and cannot obtainâ€... sounds like coveting to me, coveting that spurs James to call these Christians adulteresses.

Acting like the world....

1 Timothy 6:9-10 “But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang.

...some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith...spiritual infidelity.

I'd read it again.

1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and [into] many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. 1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Notice the colon, which ends a thought but joins another.

Coveting money causes one to "err" from the faith and causes many sorrows. This is hardly equating coveting with adultery.

Ephesians 5:5 "For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

...or covetous man, who is an idolater...

Again, idolatry is merely one aspect of adultery.

I most likely could dig up some more, but it's after 1:00 am and I've a long day tomorrow.

I would hope you would use the OT and try to find better examples.

We're having family and friends over to bring in the New Year.

Happy New Year!

I may or may not look in on this thread in the morning.

Apparently you will...

 

[RND]

Here was the post I was referring to:

Found an answered.

 

[LaCrum]

I don't believe that this means that we are not cognizant after death. If we dissect the text a bit, we see that the Preacher is saying many things that cannot be true:

The Preacher states that "It is the same for all. There is one fate for the righteous and for the wicked; for the good, for the clean and for the unclean; for the man who offers a sacrifice and for the one who does not sacrifice. As the good man is, so is the sinner; as the swearer is, so is the one who is afraid to swear. This is an evil in all that is done under the son, that there is one fate for all men." vs 2-3

Now, we know that this isn't true, if it is, we would have to rip out a large portion of the new testament and throw it away. There is indeed two separate fates for the righteous and for the wicked. Even if you believe in the annihilation of the wicked, you also believe in the resurrection and everlasting life of those who are saved, do you not? So, these words of Solomon, must be examined carefully to see why he is making this very false claim.

Now, why Solomon is going off on a nonfactual and depressing rant is interesting, but not the subject of this thread. Suffice it to say though, that although Solomon did rant and rave in Ecclesiastes, he still affirmed that after death the body returns to dust and the spirit returns to God.

If Eccl 9:5-6 were our only texts as to the ultimate fate of man, then I would be convinced that there is nothing for us but this life and this life alone, in which case, I wouldn't be a Christian. However, there are many, many texts which affirm that this is anything but true and that there is eternal reward for those who seek Him...and eternal punishment for those do not.

Hey Handy I agree that we can not fully understand the OT without looking at the NT as well. The two books are related to each other and are meant to be studied as such.

As such, there are certain beliefs and practices which don't apply to us. It's also interesting that Solomon takes such a view as opposed to David who does speak of eternal life.

I think we also need to look at the tone of the book of Ecclesiates. Now, I haven't read this book in a while, but I remember having the impression that author seemed "over it". Solomon was a man who had more riches and pleasures then anyone of us could every dream about, yet he still felt an emptiness inside that all those material possessions couldn’t fill, and thus his view about earth and living was jaded to a certain extent.

RND: What is Jesus then referring to in Luke 23:43?

 

[RND]

RND: What is Jesus then referring to in Luke 23:43?

Well, for starters we must be willing to acknowledge that the Greek that Luke wrote in contains to grammar marks and punctuation.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So if we move the comma behind "today" the verse would mean something completely different.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

I believe it shows Jesus giving the thief assurance of eternal life, not that he would ascend to heaven that day. This is confirmed by the fact that Jesus Himself had not ascended to His Father at resurrection. We know this from when Mary tried to touch Him and Jesus said, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God. " - John 20:17

So if Jesus hadn't ascended to the Father why do we assume the thief got to the Father before the Son?

But taking it even further if we insist that the thief did ascend to heaven the we render the scriptures as being contradictory for Jesus said, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven." - John 3:13. Jesus is plainly telling us that no man has ascended to heaven except the Son of man.

 

[handy]

Apparently you will...

handy wrote:James 4:1-4 “What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source of your pleasures that wage war in your members? You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. And you are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures.
You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God?

Here, James is equating worldly Christians with spiritual infidelity. Back to this one later.

Yeah, "worldly" Christians. James is actually calling those aligned with the world and the doctrines of the world adulteresses. He's not calling those that covet adulteresses.

Come on RND, surely you can see that the "friendship with the world", the adultery, is the lusting and envy. Take off the blinders man, and see the full text here. James is not rebuking these Christians for following after pagan beliefs (going back to your assertion that "adultery in the spiritual sense is ALWAYS following after pagan beliefs"). He is rebuking them for envy and greed, two sins closely related to coveteousness.

Colossians 3:5 “Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry."

Idolatry is spiritual infidelity and in the list Paul provides greed is what amounts to idolatry, not “pagan beliefsâ€.

I think you are stretching quite a bit here frankly. (Same right back atcha! ;) )

Idolatry is one aspect that led to the adultery of Israel. But this verse certainly doesn't equate "coveting money" with adultery.

Nor does it equate following after false beliefs with the idolatry, either. As a matter of fact, the King James Version of the bible translates "greed" as "coveteousness" here, the Greek word being pleonexia which is defined as "greedy desire to have more, covetousness, avarice". The text stands as written, greed (coveteousness) amounts to idolatry. Next you're going to tell me that idolatry shouldn't be confused with the sort of adultery that means spiritual infidelity.

Well, I didn't find one place where coveting is equated with adultery/harlotry/spiritual infidelity, I found three.

Going back to James 4:1-4, “you lust and do not haveâ€... “you are envious and cannot obtainâ€... sounds like coveting to me, coveting that spurs James to call these Christians adulteresses.

Acting like the world....

Yes, by being covetous.

1 Timothy 6:9-10 “But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang.

...some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith...spiritual infidelity.

I'd read it again.

1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and [into] many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. 1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Notice the colon, which ends a thought but joins another.

Coveting money causes one to "err" from the faith and causes many sorrows. This is hardly equating coveting with adultery.

Oh, I believe it does. Again, we are discussing "spiritual infidelity" here. The word here is apoplana?, meaning to "stray away". It's the same word Jesus used to tell us that false teachers will seduce us. If I am being seduced and stray away from my husband, I am committing infidelity.

Ephesians 5:5 "For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

...or covetous man, who is an idolater...

Again, idolatry is merely one aspect of adultery.

...or covetous man, who is an idolater... Again, idolatry is merely one aspect of adultery.

Next you're going to tell me that idolatry shouldn't be confused with the sort of adultery that means spiritual infidelity.

O my goodness, you actually did. So now RND, are you in all intellectual honesty going to try to wiggle out of the fact that I have shown in several places that covetousness is equal to idolatry, by saying that idolatry isn't the same as spiritual adultery. Idolatry IS spiritual adultery. Even in the old testaments, when God was calling the Israelites adulteress and whores, He as doing so because they were committing idolatry.

Sorry buddy, put I've made the point. Seeking after other gods is adultery towards God. So is seeking after wealth via greed and coveteousness, which was the sin of the Pharisees in Luke 16. If you want to keep denying this, then there is really no more point to this discussion.

We're having family and friends over to bring in the New Year.

Happy New Year!

And, Happy New Year to you as well. I truly must get off this computer and start getting things ready.

 

[RND]

Come on RND, surely you can see that the "friendship with the world", the adultery, is the lusting and envy.

That's not what the verse says.

Take off the blinders man, and see the full text here.

Your reaction to me indicates you know the verse doesn't say what you think it says.

James is not rebuking these Christians for following after pagan beliefs (going back to your assertion that "adultery in the spiritual sense is ALWAYS following after pagan beliefs"). He is rebuking them for envy and greed, two sins closely related to coveteousness.

Let's see in again.

Jam 4:1 ¶ From whence [come] wars and fightings among you? [come they] not hence, [even] of your lusts that war in your members? Jam 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Jam 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume [it] upon your lusts. Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

The "adulterers and adulteresses" are called that because of their "friendship of the world". They are called "adulterers and adulteresses" not because of "coveting".

This was a huge stretch Handy.

I think you are stretching quite a bit here frankly. (Same right back atcha! ;) )

Well, that's why they are called opinions.

Nor does it equate following after false beliefs with the idolatry, either.

Yes it does. Read the OT.

Jer 3:6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen [that] which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.

This verse describes what the COI did in worship ping other Gods and thus committing harlotry.

As a matter of fact, the King James Version of the bible translates "greed" as "coveteousness" here, the Greek word being pleonexia which is defined as "greedy desire to have more, covetousness, avarice". The text stands as written, greed (coveteousness) amounts to idolatry.

But that's not what the verse is saying. It lays out the atributes of the world, and what the world does.

Next you're going to tell me that idolatry shouldn't be confused with the sort of adultery that means spiritual infidelity.

No, I won'r tell you that. What I will say is that you aren't reading James 1 very well.

Yes, by being covetous.

Acting like the world.

Oh, I believe it does. Again, we are discussing "spiritual infidelity" here.

Right, read the OP.

The word here is apoplana?, meaning to "stray away". It's the same word Jesus used to tell us that false teachers will seduce us. If I am being seduced and stray away from my husband, I am committing infidelity.

Right, which is what the Pharisees were doing by ignoring God and His word and accepting false pagan beliefs.

Next you're going to tell me that idolatry shouldn't be confused with the sort of adultery that means spiritual infidelity.

As I said before idolatry is one aspect that led to the adultery of Israel. But this verse certainly doesn't equate "coveting money" with adultery.

O my goodness, you actually did. So now RND, are you in all intellectual honesty going to try to wiggle out of the fact that I have shown in several places that covetousness is equal to idolatry, by saying that idolatry isn't the same as spiritual adultery.

I never said idolatry/adultery were different, I said coveting/adultery are never compared in the Bible. You've been stretching.

Idolatry IS spiritual adultery.

Right, coveting is not idolatry.

Even in the old testaments, when God was calling the Israelites adulteress and whores, He as doing so because they were committing idolatry.

Exactly. But as I was saying idolatry is not the aspect of covetousness.

Sorry buddy, put I've made the point.

Nope. You may think you have but you haven't.

Seeking after other gods is adultery towards God.

Which was stated in the OP.

So is seeking after wealth via greed and coveteousness, which was the sin of the Pharisees in Luke 16.

Nope. Adultery and coveting are never compared as the same thing. Never.

If you want to keep denying this, then there is really no more point to this discussion.

You have attempted to use three verses that say nothing about adultery being compared to coveting.

 

[LaCrum]

RND: What is Jesus then referring to in Luke 23:43?

Well, for starters we must be willing to acknowledge that the Greek that Luke wrote in contains to grammar marks and punctuation.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So if we move the comma behind "today" the verse would mean something completely different.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

I believe it shows Jesus giving the thief assurance of eternal life, not that he would ascend to heaven that day. This is confirmed by the fact that Jesus Himself had not ascended to His Father at resurrection. We know this from when Mary tried to touch Him and Jesus said, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God. " - John 20:17

So if Jesus hadn't ascended to the Father why do we assume the thief got to the Father before the Son?

But taking it even further if we insist that the thief did ascend to heaven the we render the scriptures as being contradictory for Jesus said, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven." - John 3:13. Jesus is plainly telling us that no man has ascended to heaven except the Son of man.

I’m sorry, even with the comma removed, it the verse does not make sense as you are describing it. Jesus had been tortured and was nailed to cross, slowly dying. Why would he make a statement such as you’re trying portray it and use a needless extra word such as “todayâ€? Obviously he was speaking to him today, he wasn’t making a statement in a grand speech such as “Today as I stand before you!â€. He was dying and even breathing was excruciating, he would not have added a needless “today†into what he was saying.

I don't believe paradise and heaven are synonymous in the sense I view the Heaven Jesus ascends to as the throne room of God while we go to another part of Heaven aka “paradise†to await our resurrected bodies, where we are both aware and can communicate freely with each other and God.

The problem with your interpretation of John 3:13 is it is in direct contradiction then to both Enoch’s and Elijah’s ascensions into Heaven in the OT. How could they have gone up to Heaven if Jesus says, “And no man hath asceded up to heaven�

 

[RND]

I’m sorry, even with the comma removed, it the verse does not make sense as you are describing it.

OK. For me, as with most folks, there would be a distinct difference in meaning.

Jesus had been tortured and was nailed to cross, slowly dying. Why would he make a statement such as you’re trying portray it and use a needless extra word such as “today�

I told you. He was giving assurance to the thief that he would be in paradise with Jesus.

Obviously he was speaking to him today, he wasn’t making a statement in a grand speech such as “Today as I stand before you!â€. He was dying and even breathing was excruciating, he would not have added a needless “today†into what he was saying.

The "today" sets the tone for the assurance.

Here's a simple example:

I promise today, I'm going to give you $100.00. (This sentence gives no definite period as to when the $100.00 will be given. It does give the assurance that a promise has been made).

I promise, today I'm going to give you $100.00. (This sentence gives an exact period of time as to when the $100.00 will be given - it will be given today).

So as you can see, the comma, does make a difference.

Furthermore, it is mere speculation as to where the comma goes because the Greek has no punctuation and the comma was added much later.

I don't believe paradise and heaven are synonymous in the sense I view the Heaven Jesus ascends to as the throne room of God while we go to another part of Heaven aka “paradise†to await our resurrected bodies, where we are both aware and can communicate freely with each other and God.

Then surely you have scripture that describes paradise being a different place than heaven.

The problem with your interpretation of John 3:13 is it is in direct contradiction then to both Enoch’s and Elijah’s ascensions into Heaven in the OT.

Neither died first. They were translated as alive beings, not dead in the ground. So as we can see translation and ascension after death are two different things.

How could they have gone up to Heaven if Jesus says, “And no man hath ascended up to heaven�

Again, ascension is different than translation.

Actually, I would have thought you would have brought up Moshe instead of Enoch or Elijah. Deuteronomy tells us that Moshe died and was buried by "he".

Deu 34:5 ¶ So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. Deu 34:6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

Who's he?

Yet we know Moshe appeared with Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration. But we also know that Michael did not give Satan a "railing accusation" and instead rebuked Satan when contending for the bones of Moshe.

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

If you had brought this up I would have simply told you that I believe it is God's prerogative to raise whomever He chooses whenever He chooses and that I have no problem believing that God has resurrected a few souls prior to the first general resurrection at Christ's second coming.

 

[LaCrum]

OK. For me, as with most folks, there would be a distinct difference in meaning.

But, since you take the comma out of the context in which it was supplied in, you are changing the meaning to something it was never meant to be.

Do you believe the scriptures are the inerrant Word of God?

If yes, then you would not question whether the comma was placed in the correct spot since the Holy Spirit was guiding the translators.

If no, then you are going in direct opposition of everything the Bible is.

So which is it?

I told you. He was giving assurance to the thief that he would be in paradise with Jesus.

Then why didn’t he just say “Assuredly I say to you, you will join me paradise� Why inject “today� There’s no reason for it.

Then surely you have scripture that describes paradise being a different place than heaven.

The story of the poor man Lazarus and the man on the cross are two of them.

Here’s a breakdown of it:

Heaven: Where God, Jesus, and angels are
Paradise: Heavenly, near God, an “Intermediate†stage before the final judgement and resurrection where we are aware, interact with one another, interact with God, can view events occurring. ie “surrounded by a cloud of witnesses†Hebrews 12:1
New Earth: Where humans, in their resurrected bodies, and Jesus rule together forever.

For other Christians out there who might hold that Heaven and Paradise are the same thing, I think their different only in the sense that God describes the creation of the new Heaven and New Earth, and speaks of us living and ruling on Earth, not in Heaven because we are physical as well as spiritual. So, although we reside there temporarily of sorts, it’s not where we are ultimately supposed to be. Feel free to input any additions or contradictions in my understanding of the matter you know of or recognize.

Neither died first. They were translated as alive beings, not dead in the ground. So as we can see translation and ascension after death are two different things.

But Jesus ascended as a live human in a physical body. If he’s risen and alive, then it’s no different.

Again, ascension is different than translation.

Not if they’re both alive, in physical human bodies when it occurs.

If you had brought this up I would have simply told you that I believe it is God's prerogative to raise whomever He chooses whenever He chooses and that I have no problem believing that God has resurrected a few souls prior to the first general resurrection at Christ's second coming.

This might lead us off topic, but I think it will be interesting to discuss.

Why do you think Satan wanted Moses’s body?

 

[RND]

But, since you take the comma out of the context in which it was supplied in, you are changing the meaning to something it was never meant to be.

You seem content on not understanding that in the original Greek there was no comma there. That comma, in my mind, was misplaced accidentally which changes the meaning to the point that it doesn't fit with the theme that the scripture consistently tell.

Do you believe the scriptures are the inerrant Word of God?

Of course. I do not however believe the translators were.

If yes, then you would not question whether the comma was placed in the correct spot since the Holy Spirit was guiding the translators.

Um, I don't necessarily believe that the HS spirit was in the hearts of many of the translators.

If no, then you are going in direct opposition of everything the Bible is.

So which is it?

I side with the majority of texts that tell us conclusively that man does not have a dual nature.

I told you. He was giving assurance to the thief that he would be in paradise with Jesus.

Then why didn’t he just say “Assuredly I say to you, you will join me paradise� Why inject “today� There’s no reason for it.

You'll have to ask Jesus when you see Him. I can't answer for why He did or din't say something.

[quote:31j5b5sj]Then surely you have scripture that describes paradise being a different place than heaven.

The story of the poor man Lazarus and the man on the cross are two of them.

Here’s a breakdown of it:

Heaven: Where God, Jesus, and angels are
Paradise: Heavenly, near God, an “Intermediate†stage before the final judgement and resurrection where we are aware, interact with one another, interact with God, can view events occurring. ie “surrounded by a cloud of witnesses†Hebrews 12:1
New Earth: Where humans, in their resurrected bodies, and Jesus rule together forever.

For other Christians out there who might hold that Heaven and Paradise are the same thing, I think their different only in the sense that God describes the creation of the new Heaven and New Earth, and speaks of us living and ruling on Earth, not in Heaven because we are physical as well as spiritual. So, although we reside there temporarily of sorts, it’s not where we are ultimately supposed to be. Feel free to input any additions or contradictions in my understanding of the matter you know of or recognize. [/quote:31j5b5sj] Um, it's a parable and is not a picture of life after death.

[quote:31j5b5sj]Neither died first. They were translated as alive beings, not dead in the ground. So as we can see translation and ascension after death are two different things.

But Jesus ascended as a live human in a physical body. If he’s risen and alive, then it’s no different. [/quote:31j5b5sj] Correction. Jesus rose n a "glorified" body. It was certainly physical but it was also able to go through walls of locked rooms.

[quote:31j5b5sj]Again, ascension is different than translation.

Not if they’re both alive, in physical human bodies when it occurs.[/quote:31j5b5sj] You seem to want to argue unnecessarily. "Translation" occurs to the living. "Ascension" occurs to the resurrected.

[quote:31j5b5sj]If you had brought this up I would have simply told you that I believe it is God's prerogative to raise whomever He chooses whenever He chooses and that I have no problem believing that God has resurrected a few souls prior to the first general resurrection at Christ's second coming.

This might lead us off topic, but I think it will be interesting to discuss. [/quote:31j5b5sj] It would be better in another thread.

Why do you think Satan wanted Moses’s body?

Honestly? This is purely my opinion for I have no authority for this view but I believe Satan knew God was planning on resurrecting Moshe and felt that if he had Moshe's body that somehow God would be unable to resurrect him.

This from the pen of Inspiration:

The life of Moses was marked with supreme love to God. His piety, humility and forbearance, gave him influence with the host of Israel. His zeal and faith in God were greater than those of any other man upon the earth. He had often addressed his people in words of stirring eloquence. No one knew better than he how to move the affections of the people. He conducted all matters connected with the religious interests of the people with great wisdom.

Satan exulted that he had succeeded in causing Moses to sin against God. For this transgression, Moses came under the dominion of death. If he had continued faithful, and his life had not been marred with that one transgression, in failing to give to God the glory of bringing water from the rock, he would have entered the promised land, and would have been translated to Heaven without seeing death. Michael, or Christ, with the angels that buried Moses, came down from Heaven, after he had remained in the grave a short time, and resurrected him, and took him to Heaven.

As Christ and the angels approached the grave, Satan and his angels appeared at the grave, and were guarding the body of Moses, lest it should be removed. As Christ and his angels drew nigh, Satan resisted their approach, but was compelled, by the glory and power of Christ and his angels, to fall back. Satan claimed the body of Moses, because of his one transgression; but Christ meekly referred him to his Father, saying, "The Lord rebuke thee." Christ told Satan that he knew Moses had humbly repented of this one wrong, that no stain rested upon his character, and that his name in the heavenly book of records stood untarnished. Then Christ resurrected the body of Moses, which Satan had claimed.

At the transfiguration of Christ, Moses, and Elijah who had been translated, were sent to talk with Christ in regard to his sufferings, and be the bearers of God's glory to his dear Son. Moses had been greatly honored of God. He had been privileged to talk with God face to face, as a man speaketh with his friend. And God had revealed to him his excellent glory, as he had never done to any other.

Moses was a type of Christ. He received the words from the mouth of God, and spoke them to the people. God saw fit to discipline Moses in the school of affliction and poverty, before he could be prepared to lead the armies of Israel in their travels from Egypt to the earthly Canaan. The Israel of God who are now passing on to the heavenly Canaan have a Captain who needed no earthly teaching, as did Moses, to perfect him for the work of a divine teacher and leader to guide his people into a better and heavenly country.

He manifested no human weakness or imperfection; yet he died in order to obtain an entrance for us into the promised land. Moses pointed the people forward to Christ. He said, "The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet, from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken." He continues, "The Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet, from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." -- Ellen G. White, The Spirit of Prophecy, Chapter Title: Chapter XXXI. - Death of Moses.

 

[glorydaz]

Then why didn’t he just say “Assuredly I say to you, you will join me paradise� Why inject “today� There’s no reason for it.

You're correct. The verse makes sense with or without the comma. It's obvious he was speaking that day...not yesterday or tomorrow, and He was in no condition to add needless words just to point out when He was saying what He said. That's just silly. Talk about getting the poor thief's hopes up for something that wasn't going to happen that day.

Jesus told the thief he would be with him in Paradise that day, because Jesus took him to Paradise...which is another name for the place of waiting where Abraham and the OT saints were held until the resurrection. That is where He preached to the prisoners while His body was in the grave.
Paradise is Abraham's bosom in the Luke 16 portion. Paradise (Abraham's bosom) was moved to the third heaven after our Lord's resurrection. Paul speaks of it here...

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

This "hell" is correctly translated Hades, the other side of Sheol. The underworld and place of waiting until Christ had ascended to the Father, and brought Sheol up to the heavenlies.

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Isaiah speaks of it here...

Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Here are the same verses in Young's. Whenever you read hell or grave, it pays to check the translations.

Sheol beneath hath been troubled at thee, To meet thy coming in, It is waking up for thee Rephaim, All chiefs ones of earth, It hath raised up from their thrones All kings of nations. All of them answer and say unto thee, Even thou hast become weak like us! Unto us thou hast become like! Brought down to Sheol hath been thine excellency, The noise of thy psaltery, Under thee spread out hath been the worm, Yea, covering thee is the worm.

Jesus descended to preach to the prisoners who were being held...the disembodied spirits of the righteous and the unrighteous.

[To] the parts of Sheol ye go down, If together on the dust we may rest.

`I -- I said in the cutting off of my days, I go in to the gates of Sheol, I have numbered the remnant of mine years.

We know the OT saints were not in heaven...they were waiting for the atonement.

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jacob when mourning for Joseph...who he thought had been eaten by lions (so was not in a grave as KJV translates it. )...said this...

and all his sons and all his daughters rise to comfort him, and he refuseth to comfort himself, and saith, `For -- I go down mourning unto my son, to Sheol,' and his father weepeth for him.

I sure hope I haven't gone over the length limit on this post. I couldn't help myself.