Faith AND Works-James 2...Again

[francisdesales]

I agree. I'm just not getting my point across very well. I don't believe that "the works" are something the faithful must consciously endeavor to accomplish. When we finally submit ourselves completely and let the Holy Spirit control our lives, the love of Christ envelops us so much and so completely that the works become a part of who we are, how we act, and what we think.

That doesn't happen automatically or overnight. The walk of faith is a struggle. Very rarely do people submit themselves "completely" to the Spirit - and that's the way it is. Perhaps we THINK we are, but once we get to know ourselves truly (few have real self-knowledge because they are 'too busy' with "life"), people begin to realize the many attachments and ways of thinking that we hold onto that prevents us from "completely submitting ourselves".

In other words, practically speaking, the scenario you suggest rarely comes to fruition without a long spiritual battle.

We don't have to step back and ask ourselves what we need to do next or if we should do this or that or decide between right and wrong.

I disagree. Self-knowledge is key to the spiritual life. We are not puppets who passively await God to "do something" within us. It doesn't work that way, WIP. We must sit in prayer and allow God to enlighten us on a variety of things about ourselves - our core failing, evil ways of thinking, vices that we pretend are not too bad, etc...

We no longer have to set goals to do good works, our actions and our life become the character reflection of Christ in our lives. Good works become an everyday occurrence without having to put forth any effort at all because we have been changed by Christ and its who we've become.

I would say that our walk is a reflection of our prayer life. A person who claims to be a good Christian but does not "do good deeds" has a poor prayer life. At THIS level, God acts upon us in a manner that might be parallel to how you describe it. But I don't think it is ever an "auto-pilot" situation. I think good deeds does become an extension of our prayer life.

The stronger our faith the more noticeable the works.

I would correct that and say the stronger our prayer life, the stronger our works of love. I recall when I first came to the faith, I had a strong faith, a faith that God existed. I didn't doubt it. But that didn't move me to love others, I still had a lot of issues (more than now, anyway...). It wasn't until my prayer life got better and my relationship improved and I experienced Christ in prayer (public and private) that my "works" became more noticeable.

Faith, the belief in God, does not necessarily make someone love another. It is experiencing God in our lives, through prayer, that enables us to love.

Christ was the example of perfect faith and his works were beyond our own comprehension and belief.

Again, note His prayer life and His experience of the Father throughout His life... Not His "faith". Christ's faith is not mentioned in the Gospels, is it? I don't think so. It is taken for granted that He believed in His Father in heaven. But it was His prayer life. Note He prays before every major event in His life. That is His "fuel" - and the Apostles note this - "teach us to pray, master"...

It's not a question of having to obey His commandments.

No one will enter the Kindgom UNLESS they obey the Father in heaven...

When we love Christ with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength we "will" obey his commandments without forethought or question.

Again, rarely to people ACTUALLY get to that point in life. ALL their heart, mind, soul, and strength? That means NOTHING comes between you and God. No attachments, complete dying to self. Very few people are that advanced in the spiritual walk. Many people THINK they are, but that is a lack of self-knowledge.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

The man and woman in Acts proved their false faith that cannot save by their actions. The only seeds that were actually saved were the ones on good ground who had actually been born again. Those coming to the supper without a proper garment were those not actually born again but who considered themselves to be christian. The servant who did not have correct faith acted out that incorrect faith and was not accepted because of it.

Good gravy, everything passes through the seive of "faith v works", even if the Scripture does not warrant it...

 

[Sam21]

Agreed, but you cant be grafted in by just having faith with no works, because then you wouldnt be following the Lord in obedience.

Which is what ive been saying the whole time, work by faith.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

You keep missing the point,you can ONLY be grafted in by faith with no works because the act of presenting works to God for salvation is disobedience toward God. BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED,God will never accept our works, God only accepts the works of Jesus Christ and we are accepted completely apart from works but by FAITH IN CHRIST AND HIS WORK ON THE CROSS. In order to be accepted into the family of God we come with nothing but faith in what God has provided for us,Jesus Christ and His sacrifice,faith in anything else at this point(baptism,church membership,good works)will result in A DENIAL of acceptance by God into the family of God. Folks, the most important thing is to actually be accepted into the family of God by God,that means that your sins were forgiven and God gives you His indwelling Spirit,if you don't get this part right you are in the "I never knew you"crowd. After we have truely been accepted by God THEN we follow the Lord in doing good works. If you are trying to do good works in order to be saved then you have missed the true gospel message,salvation is a gift,but it can be lost by refusing to actually follow Christ after receiving the gift.

 

[Sam21]

Good gravy, everything passes through the seive of "faith v works", even if the Scripture does not warrant it...

It really is not that hard to understand,we come to God with NO WORKS, and trust completely in the WORK OF GOD(Jesus on the cross),if we come to God in this way then God will accept us as His children,we are forgiven and have passed from death to life. Now AFTER we have become children of God by faith in Jesus Christ without any works on our part, THEN God requires us to follow Christ which definitely involves doing works,the following of Christ by doing works according to James is evidence that we truely were saved by faith in Christ(correct faith). So we are not saved by any righteous works on our part,however when we are truely saved and continue in that salvation then we will practice works.

 

[warfrog]

You keep missing the point,you can ONLY be grafted in by faith with no works because the act of presenting works to God for salvation is disobedience toward God. BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED,God will never accept our works, God only accepts the works of Jesus Christ and we are accepted completely apart from works but by FAITH IN CHRIST AND HIS WORK ON THE CROSS. In order to be accepted into the family of God we come with nothing but faith in what God has provided for us,Jesus Christ and His sacrifice,faith in anything else at this point(baptism,church membership,good works)will result in A DENIAL of acceptance by God into the family of God. Folks, the most important thing is to actually be accepted into the family of God by God,that means that your sins were forgiven and God gives you His indwelling Spirit,if you don't get this part right you are in the "I never knew you"crowd. After we have truely been accepted by God THEN we follow the Lord in doing good works. If you are trying to do good works in order to be saved then you have missed the true gospel message,salvation is a gift,but it can be lost by refusing to actually follow Christ after receiving the gift.

You think im missing the point i understand that very much so, you dont earn salvation, it is given and through faith you work with Salvation afterwards, because you cant be a faithful little servant if you dont follow the words of your Master, which involves works.

Therefore faith is nothing without works and works is nothing without faith.
Just because you had the faith in the salvation and then do no works, that is be obient to the work your Master has given you, which is the commandments Jesus the Son of God gave us from the Father, you will not be saved.

So you must work in faith.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[francisdesales]

It really is not that hard to understand,we come to God with NO WORKS, and trust completely in the WORK OF GOD(Jesus on the cross),if we come to God in this way then God will accept us as His children,we are forgiven and have passed from death to life. Now AFTER we have become children of God by faith in Jesus Christ without any works on our part, THEN God requires us to follow Christ which definitely involves doing works,the following of Christ by doing works according to James is evidence that we truely were saved by faith in Christ(correct faith). So we are not saved by any righteous works on our part,however when we are truely saved and continue in that salvation then we will practice works.

We are not talking about initial salvation, or what is called initial justification. Having that does not equate to going to heaven, since people fall away. We are talking (James as well) about salvation to heaven/ongoing justification.

Without those works, we cannot be saved (attain eternal life), for one is saved (James definition) by faith and works.

Regards

 

[Sam21]

We are not talking about initial salvation, or what is called initial justification. Having that does not equate to going to heaven, since people fall away. We are talking (James as well) about salvation to heaven/ongoing justification.

Without those works, we cannot be saved (attain eternal life), for one is saved (James definition) by faith and works.

Regards

Initial salvation IS SALVATION,one day I was lost and headed for hell without hope in the world and the next day I commited to God and accepted Jesus as my Saviour and in a moment of time I was born again and forgiven of my sins and became a child of God, if I had died the day before I would have found myself in hell,if I had died the day after I would have found myself in Heaven,salvation is a GIFT provided by God,all I did was BELIEVE and accept Jesus as Saviour...I did NO GOOD WORKS.
So I am now saved and on my way to Heaven because of a gift from God(Jesus), suppose in a week or so I decide that the whole thing is too hard and I turn my back on God and become a Hindu and live another 50 years before I die,do I make heaven,no,however it is God who decides to call back my gift of salvation...the Lord gave and only the Lord can take away.
The idea of being water baptized and then earning your way into Heaven by good deeds is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. The book of James is written in such a way that it can be misunderstood by those who believe one can work their way into Heaven,however I simply see James as warning those who are out of the leading of the Spirit not to feel justified because they are saying they believe in Jesus.

 

[Elijah674]

Re: Faith AND Works-James 2...Again

Originally Posted by Sam21
People who accept Christ as Saviour have to follow the Lord in obedience, however a Christian cannot earn their way with the Lord by doing good works.

Then this [TRUTH] comes along by another-->




Agreed, but you cant be grafted in by just having faith with no works, because then you wouldnt be following the Lord in obedience.

Which is what ive been saying the whole time, work by faith.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

__________

Elijah here: It sounds like this one keeps the Ten Commands? If not, then they are talking out of both sides of their mouth. And if they are totally Obedient, then it is to be documented as such. Or the [posted remarks] are blasphemy at best. 1 John 2:4 + Matt. 23:2-3

--Elijah
​

Me again: Eccl. 12:13-14 will document who will be saved. Who that Loves Christ, will not KEEP HIS FATHERS COMMANDMENTS as He calls them? [NO ONE!]

And when Christ comes again, He will BRING HIS REWARD WITH HIM, (Rev. 22:11-15) for we are prejudged according to the above. Have they been OBEDIENT or not?

 

[francisdesales]

Initial salvation IS SALVATION,one day I was lost and headed for hell without hope in the world and the next day I commited to God and accepted Jesus as my Saviour and in a moment of time I was born again and forgiven of my sins and became a child of God, if I had died the day before I would have found myself in hell,if I had died the day after I would have found myself in Heaven,salvation is a GIFT provided by God,all I did was BELIEVE and accept Jesus as Saviour...I did NO GOOD WORKS.

Well, Sam, you did. You repented, you believed, you made a decision to accept Jesus as your savior. This matters to God, since men are offered this decision and CAN reject it. That does not earn anything - but accepting God's gift is something that MUST be done to enter His rest.

So I am now saved and on my way to Heaven because of a gift from God(Jesus), suppose in a week or so I decide that the whole thing is too hard and I turn my back on God and become a Hindu and live another 50 years before I die,do I make heaven,no,however it is God who decides to call back my gift of salvation...the Lord gave and only the Lord can take away.

I don't believe God "calls back the gift". It is WE who reject it. One of the PRIMARY elements of our faith is that GOD IS FAITHFUL. He will NOT pull the rug out from under us. The Lord doesn't "pick up the seeds" He has planted. What prevents good fruit from growing is the soil (US), not the lack of seed.

The idea of being water baptized and then earning your way into Heaven by good deeds is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Agree. I hope you don't think that we believe that...An infant receiving baptism and then subsequently dying has been promised eternal happiness in heaven. Earning and doing absolutely nothing. Even less than how you came to the faith.

The book of James is written in such a way that it can be misunderstood by those who believe one can work their way into Heaven, however I simply see James as warning those who are out of the leading of the Spirit not to feel justified because they are saying they believe in Jesus.

I don't think most ancient Jews believed they could "work their way to heaven", so your concern is misplaced. The concern for the first Christian communities was whether a person had to become Jewish, not whether they could earn their way to heaven. Does a Gentile have to become Jewish and undertake obedience to the dictates of the Mosaic Law? The answer, of course, is no. But it is not about "earning your way to heaven". Not necessarily.

Of course, having faith alone without works does not justify. Merely saying something (having faith) does not save. James' examples are clear - that God does not just look upon our intellectual belief in Him. The good deeds don't earn heaven, but without them, you won't be saved. To continue to remain just in God's eyes, one must respond to God with the gifts man receives from God - love, not just faith.

Nothing else matters but faith working in love. Faith without love is nothing. Thus, faith alone is dead, according to Paul - Galatians/1 Corinthians.

Regards

 

[warfrog]

.The idea of being water baptized and then earning your way into Heaven by good deeds is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.QUOTE]

Sam i have not even been watered baptized, i grew up in a Catholic family, not my initial family they were not Catholic, but allowed the family practice of it because my dad would do anything to please his mother, but the overall part of my dads family (which is huge, my memere had 12 kids, 13 but one died right after birth) so when i was a baby i guess i was baptized as a child, i am unsure, i cannot recall it because i dont recall almost all of my very early childhood.

I was a persecuter of anything God or "religous" my whole life leading up to the grace of God through my Lord Jesus Christ, in other words i didnt beleive in anything and everyone who believed in anything other than nothing at all were fools and nut jobs and i had no problem letting them know that.

When the grace of God came upon me and the Lord was revealed to me as i sat in a homeless/food shelter watching people serve those in need and wondering why people would go through such great lengths for no reason at all. (i was there with my Aunt, who is a servant of the Lord Jesus Christ, i had to live with her because i worked in the city and didnt have $ to buy my own place and i knew noone else in the city, so i stayed with them until i saved enough $) so that day when i decided to go with my aunt and uncle to this place and Gods grace came upon me and the Spirit of the Lord manifested itself to me and shattered my hardened heart and i knew Jesus was the Christ and wept bitterly of what i did in my life and how i was so blind and the accounts of my life were revealed to me where He stood beside me and i didnt even know and times when i was attacked by Satan were revealed and He had the patience to stand by as I blasphemed God over His actions with the accounts in the O.T (I decided to read the bible for the sake of reading it once in my past, needless to say some very interesting things occured while i started doing this, dreams/visions and encounters, and i became absolutely enraged with God over my misunderstandings over the accounts of the O.T)

Long story short, i have not been baptised by water from man, since that day His grace came upon me in that food shelter.
Hope that helps you understand what im saying more regarding faith and works and even about water baptism itself in my own regards.

Faith is empty without works, works profit nothing without faith.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Elijah674]

Forum:
Are you not getting WORN OUT by these false GARBAGE postings of 'even hinting' that someone on these forums are claiming that [anyone on this FORUM] has [EVER] even suggested that ones works save them??? (and the bible talks of being a LIAR from the beginning?)

--Elijah

 

[dadof10]

Dad, you seem to be saying that dead faith and saving faith are one in the same. The very fact that any faith that does not produce works is dead means that it is not saving faith.

At the end of the chapter, James sums up, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

So, again, I have to conclude that James is indeed talking about the "kind of faith one must have"...not a simple "belief", but a true faith that will always produce works. The example of "a 'saved' person, with real, true faith [who] does not show charity to a person in need" is a bit of a false example, because no person with "real, true faith" would fail to show charity to a person in need.

We can go back to our Lord's example of the seed scattered amongst the rocky places and the thorns. For a while, the seed does produce growth, but it soon dies out. Either the roots have no purchase or the thorns choke out the life. These are different from those which fell by the wayside. Those by the wayside never sprouted at all, but those in the rocky places and the thorns sprouted, just never grew to fruition. There was a start to life, but life quickly died. Dead plants produce no fruit.

Dead faith produces no works. It cannot be called a "saving" faith, because it is dead.

Dora, I've been really busy lately, and the one day I finally have the time, my browser won't let me on due to security concerns. Are you having the same problem?

Ill try to respond after Mass on my phone. It's really clunky, takes a while and I can't quote. I'll stop whining now.

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[dadof10]

Forum:
Are you not getting WORN OUT by these false GARBAGE postings of 'even hinting' that someone on these forums are claiming that [anyone on this FORUM] has [EVER] even suggested that ones works save them??? (and the bible talks of being a LIAR from the beginning?)

--Elijah

Thanks for the well reasoned, intellectually stimulating response. How could anyone disagree with it?

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[Elijah674]

Originally Posted by Elijah674
Forum:
Are you not getting WORN OUT by these false GARBAGE postings of 'even hinting' that someone on these forums are claiming that [anyone on this FORUM] has [EVER] even suggested that ones works save them??? (and the bible talks of being a LIAR from the beginning?)

--Elijah

Dad of ten? (me thinks!;))



Thanks for the well reasoned, intellectually stimulating response. How could anyone disagree with it?

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.
_________

Hi again, I don't want to imply that I know anyone's 'maturity' or what only God know's of anothers motives.

And there can be NO DOUBT that many leader's of whole denomination's are a bunch of cheap talk with NO OBEDIENCE! Matt. 23:1-2 + Rev. 17:1-5 has a whole 'family' with some agreeing that there are to be 'works' done, yet some of the rest of their doctrines are false, & have been for long past any 120 years of the Holy Spirits Striving to the pre/flood ones, making these fold's Christless as well as prophecy fortold. Compare Josh. 7:12's last part of the verse.

But what bugs me is these ones saying that because one Loves their Master, and He tell's us in Phil. 4:13 that 'we together'.. 'I can do ALL things [through Christ which strengtheneth me.'] And here they come posting up that these ones are trying to work their way to heaven! (bottom/line)

--Elijah

 

[dadof10]

Dad, you seem to be saying that dead faith and saving faith are one in the same. The very fact that any faith that does not produce works is dead means that it is not saving faith.

I think James is saying that dead faith is still faith. He doesn't call it something else. Most of Protestantism equates "accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior" with "saving faith". The moment you do this, you are "saved". You don't have to DO ANYTHING. From that moment on, you are going to Heaven upon death. James says, "NO", because you are justified by your works. You MUST "work out you salvation with fear and trembling". The bottom line is our works affect our salvation.

He asks rhetorically, "Can (not) faith save him?" not "can this kind of faith save him?", not "can his dead faith save him?", and definately not "can his said faith save him?".

At the end of the chapter, James sums up, "For just as the body without the
spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

So, again, I have to conclude that James is indeed talking about the "kind of
faith one must have"...not a simple "belief", but a true faith that will always
produce works. The example of "a 'saved' person, with real, true faith [who]
does not show charity to a person in need" is a bit of a false example, because
no person with "real, true faith" would fail to show charity to a person in
need.

I don't understand. How could anyone with true faith deny God by intentionally "refusing" to do the good works? To do this requires a lack of faith. A believer doesn't do good works in order to prove their faith but because of their faith. The faithful don't just believe in Jesus, they have surrendered their pride and let Jesus take control of their lives. The result is depicted in the good works they do. They let their light shine for all to see.

I've been formulating my reply for about a week now and I probably have about 3 pages of stuff in my head. The best way to respond, I think, is to make two simple points.

Abraham is justified three times. According to Hebrews 11:8, Abraham had "faith" in Gen. 12:1-4. I'm sure you'll agree this was a "saving faith", especially noting your (Dora) high view on Hebrews. He was justified again in Gen 15:6 when he "believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness", and he was justified a third time when he offered Issac on the altar (Gen. 22).

This proves, beyond a doubt, that justification is an ONGOING PROCESS, not a one time event.

The question is, why did he need to be justified three times? The obvious answer is he somehow lost his initial justification through sin or lack of good works. After he offered his son Issac (works through faith, of course) he was once again justified by his faith and works.

Abraham had a SAVING faith, yet was justified by his WORKS.

That's point one.

Point two is a bit simpler. If it is a fact that a "saving faith" will always produce good works, why were these verses, and others like them written, verses that exhort BELIEVERS to refrain from sin and do good deeds? Why doesn't James (or someone else) simply say that "saving faith" will always produce good works? This is not found in Scripture, yet we are told over and over to "work out our salvation" and that "He will render to every man according to his works" and a whole bunch of other verses that you know and I don't need to post here.

This dovetails with the rest of Scripture on justification, namely that it is an ongoing process, not a onetime event, which is why Paul can say we are justified by faith, and James can say we are justified by works. This is what the example of Abraham tells us.

 

[dadof10]

I believe you have an error in your position,allow me,you said that believing in God is not false, I differ with you on that. Yes the demons believe that God is a reality,however that is not saving faith in the plan of God,so that would be non-saving faith or false faith. Again, it is incorrect faith that James is attacking,not correct faith in God. James is not saying that correct faith alone will not save you,for that would contradict Paul,James is saying that the kind of faith that is correct will have corresponding actions. "I will show you my faith by my works"James.

Sam, have you had a chance to study what Paul means by the word "works"? I think that might help you with your misunderstanding of seeming contradiction between James and Paul.

Also, on the topic of justification, look into Abraham's three justifications.



Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[tjw]

dadof10... I have a question for you... If someone is about to die and just before their last breath, they put their faith in Jesus and trust in Him alone. Is that person saved?

 

[dadof10]

dadof10... I have a question for you... If someone is about to die and just before their last breath, they put their faith in Jesus and trust in Him alone. Is that person saved?

Of course. And he is saved by faith. This is not the ordinary means of salvation. Now it's your turn. If he has a miraculous recovery and goes on with his life, (his situation changes) is faith enough? (Hint: read James 2).

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[warfrog]

Of course. And he is saved by faith. This is not the ordinary means of salvation. Now it's your turn. If he has a miraculous recovery and goes on with his life, (his situation changes) is faith enough? (Hint: read James 2).

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

Amen.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[tjw]

Of course. And he is saved by faith. This is not the ordinary means of salvation. Now it's your turn. If he has a miraculous recovery and goes on with his life, (his situation changes) is faith enough? (Hint: read James 2).

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

So salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus alone.

Now, the person that has saving faith in Jesus will perform works as a result. The person that has faith in Jesus just before their last breath and the person that has faith in Jesus long before their last breath are saved in the same way. The results of salvation will be shown more on earth in the person that had faith in Jesus long before their death.