[_ Old Earth _] Faith Healing and Medical Science

[Featherbop]

I've been looking into cases of medical miracles, and of testimonies of these miracles occuring because of Gods involvement. I could find some cases of medical miracles, and quite a bit of testimonies of faith healing. These ranged from claims of minor injuries, to addictions, to cancer all being healed by prayer and faith in God and the like.

I also looked in the Bible(most of what I found was testimony from christians), to see what I could find about God healing people by faith and prayer, and indeed found much: Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, John 14:14 and Mark 11:24 to name some. The basic message is ask/pray for something/healing and whatnot, believe you will receive, and you will then receive. Nothing ambiguous at all.

This is where I hit a snag and where medical science comes in.
I searched for particular miracles, but could only locate certain kinds of maladies being cured by faith/prayer. Finding a testimony of someone praying and being healed of cancer is fairly common, along with addictions, terminal diseases and whatnot. Medical science has also devised treatments for diseases and ailments. So treatments from medicine can explain these curings as well as faith healing. That doesn't mean faith healing doesn't work.

I came across some problems that cast a large shadow of dought over the power of prayer: I could not find anything significant that was cured by faith healing that medical science does not have a treatment for(few cancer survivors went without medical treatment, they relied on Medicine, and they survived cancer. Instances of non-treated cancer survivors do exist but are expectedly small).

The other big problem is that faith healing never does anything that is impossible. One of the miracles I searched for was natural regeneration of the limbs of amputees and could not locate any. That surprised me; people claim god healed cancer, yet no amputee was healed? Not one amputee asked and believed that God would restore a lost limb? If anyone can provide a documented case of limbs regenerated or restored by prayer/faith healing, let me know, btw. There may be something out there.

The Bible is very direct and clear that a person can pray and believe, and receive what they ask for. I began to read and study the Bible in my study of christianity first. This issue is one of the first things I've decided to tackle because it is either clearly correct, or it does not work. I'm leaning towards a certain conclusion based on what I have found and read so far, but before I decide on a conclusion, I am seeing what others may know or have found about this.

 

[Slevin]

I"m curious...how was it determined that praying actually caused that person to be healed? Were they aware they were being prayed for?

It seems most studies on the healing power of prayer have yielded zero positive results.

 

[Featherbop]

I"m curious...how was it determined that praying actually caused that person to be healed? Were they aware they were being prayed for?

It seems most studies on the healing power of prayer have yielded zero positive results.

From what I can gather, it is entirely subjective. From what I read of it, if a person is inclined to believe that God healed the illness, then that person will just believe it, without regarding anything evidence that anything else was the cure. God seems to get full credit for no apparent actions to heal. Belief alone seems to be the only means of determining if prayer is effective to heal. Another problem is that only the living get to share their stories of How God healed them, so no one that dies gets to say that God failed. I have read of experiments in which people are aware and others not aware that prayer is being done for them, leading to similar results-which is to say nothing.

As far as the studies, for every one suggesting a positive effect of prayer, there is one suggesting that prayer is ineffective for healing. So it seems to balance.

That is why I will rely on believers ability to produce evidence of something that would be impossible by natural means(naturally regenerated limb) in order to make a judgment on the validity on faith healing. So far, nothing.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

The other big problem is that faith healing never does anything that is impossible. One of the miracles I searched for was natural regeneration of the limbs of amputees and could not locate any. That surprised me; people claim god healed cancer, yet no amputee was healed? Not one amputee asked and believed that God would restore a lost limb? If anyone can provide a documented case of limbs regenerated or restored by prayer/faith healing, let me know, btw. There may be something out there. .

Here is your Biblical proof.

Luk 22:50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.
Luk 22:51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him. [/color]

In this story of the ten lepers, I have heard teaching that all ten of them were cleansed of leprosery,(no longer had the disease) but the one that turned and went back to give thanks was restored. (Verse 19)

Luk 17:11 ¶ And it came to pass, as he went to Jerusalem, that he passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee.
Luk 17:12 And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:
Luk 17:13 And they lifted up [their] voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.
Luk 17:14 And when he saw [them], he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
Luk 17:15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
Luk 17:16 And fell down on [his] face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
Luk 17:17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where [are] the nine?
Luk 17:18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
Luk 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

I have spent my life going from miracle to miracle. I can tell you from experience, that it is a matter of faith, and that faith, a matter of attitude. It amazes me that, even among believers, people believe that because God is able that He therefore, owes it to them. Walking around with a 'why doesn't He?' attitude, is a barrier to many miracles.

Things also to consider, is God's timing. While I have experienced many miracles, and many healings, there are others where God says "Not yet." Seeking Him with a humble attitude, being willing to accept anything from Him, and being willing to be used by Him are all keys.

 

[Slevin]

Here is your Biblical proof.

Luk 22:50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.
Luk 22:51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him. [/color]

In this story of the ten lepers, I have heard teaching that all ten of them were cleansed of leprosery,(no longer had the disease) but the one that turned and went back to give thanks was restored. (Verse 19)

Luk 17:11 ¶ And it came to pass, as he went to Jerusalem, that he passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee.
Luk 17:12 And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:
Luk 17:13 And they lifted up [their] voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.
Luk 17:14 And when he saw [them], he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
Luk 17:15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
Luk 17:16 And fell down on [his] face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
Luk 17:17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where [are] the nine?
Luk 17:18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
Luk 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

I have spent my life going from miracle to miracle. I can tell you from experience, that it is a matter of faith, and that faith, a matter of attitude. It amazes me that, even among believers, people believe that because God is able that He therefore, owes it to them. Walking around with a 'why doesn't He?' attitude, is a barrier to many miracles.

Things also to consider, is God's timing. While I have experienced many miracles, and many healings, there are others where God says "Not yet." Seeking Him with a humble attitude, being willing to accept anything from Him, and being willing to be used by Him are all keys.

And that's a funny little catch-22, isn't it?

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

And that's a funny little catch-22, isn't it?

Not at all.
A catch-22 is an impasse. A goal that can not be reached.

If it were a catch 22, I would be dead. :

 

[Featherbop]

Here is your Biblical proof.

I think you misunderstand what I am getting at. I am aware of what the bible says about healing/prayer/miracles. Ask and receive. God will give whatever is prayed for to the believer. The bible offers no ambiguity as I pointed out earlier.

The bible even contains examples of naturally impossible cures and healings taking place. What I cannot find is any evidence, no documented cases outside of the bible of such things happening, regardless of prayer or not.

What I am asking is this: Either believers provide evidence of normally impossible 'medical miracles' actually having happened(we need not even to begin determining if God was involved yet; we just need to establish that such things have and can happen first), or explain why God will apparently not do anything impossible as a miracle, despite the bible claiming God will answer any prayer if one believes and asks in his name.

Have sincere, believing christian amputees, for instance, never asked God/Jesus to restore their lost limbs? The bible claims God can and will answer any prayer the believer asks for.

I still cannot find any evidence of such miracles.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Hey Bop,
Are you in need of healing? Maybe someone you know is in need? I would be happy to pray. You would be amazed at the number of people that I know that I am praying for. (Most of them terribly wicked people. Others of them victims of the terribly wicked people. ) My hope and prayer is that healing will lead to salvation, or visa versa. I am praying that God will knock them off of their prosthetic legs one way or another. :

If the Lord chooses to do so, I will see if I can provide some sort of documentation for you.

 

[Featherbop]

No I am of decent health as far as I know ,Thanks. Just looking for this evidence. Let me know if you find anything.

 

[Slevin]

Not at all.
A catch-22 is an impasse. A goal that can not be reached.

If it were a catch 22, I would be dead. :

Your statement was a catch-22.

You offered "proof", but then stated that you'd have to believe it first in order for it to be proof.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Your statement was a catch-22.

You offered "proof", but then stated that you'd have to believe it first in order for it to be proof.

Truth is truth, even if it is not believed. God heals. Believe it or not. There are many examples in Scripture where He healed someone because someone else asked Him to.

In fact, I just realized that in the case of the man who had his ear cut off, we do not even have a record of anyone asking for that healing.

God is good. God loves mankind and wants them saved, delivered, and healed. God heals. God tells us a lot about the power of prayer and the power of faith. He gives us one example after another of His willingness to heal.

On order to analyse why any specific amputee had not been healed, I would have to sit down and talk with them on a case by case basis and ask about their relationship with God, their faith, find out why they are in the situation that they are in, and then pray for them and see if God would reveal answers to the questions. It is not an issue that has one stock answer, however, when stock answers are demanded by someone as to why God has not done something for them, it usually comes down to :
Lack of faith, doubt unbelief
Not asking
Sin in their life
Desire to be healed for selfish intent
Timing
The list can go on and on. It is the stuff that sells books. As for the research that Featherbop is looking for, I suppose God is searching his heart looking for his motives for asking and deciding how to lead him. Proverbs says that God gives His people the desires of their heart. As Featherbop continues in his research and seeks God, perhaps God will raise him up as a prayer warrior for those in need.

In my world, there are people seeking God because they love Him and are in need of His intervention in their lives. There is also another group of people that are wanting to find out what God has done so that they can quickly be about the business of trying to undo it. I am a living testimony to both of those groups of people that "I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the Lord". In that, I pray that the hearts of many are turned toward the Lord. Greater is he who is in me than he who is in the world. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

Slevin, where some look for reasons to believe in God and believe in miracles, it appears as if you are wanting reasons not to believe.

 

[Slevin]

Truth is truth, even if it is not believed. God heals. Believe it or not. There are many examples in Scripture where He healed someone because someone else asked Him to.

Claiming it to be true doesn't make it true, Gabby.

So what if there are many examples in Scripture? Those examples are even worse because they can't be verified to be true.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Claiming it to be true doesn't make it true, Gabby.

So what if there are many examples in Scripture? Those examples are even worse because they can't be verified to be true.

Hey Slevin,

I just did a quick search of some of your past posts, to get an idea of where you are coming from and what you believe.

In order to convince someone that God heals, there needs to be some common ground. Such as both of us believing Genesis 1:1. Both of us believing that Jesus Christ died on a cross to pay for our sin, and rose from the dead on the third day, etc. In other words.

I see no common ground. To continue this discussion I would need to be well versed in Monty Python logic, and...well, we have no common ground there either.

 

[Slevin]

In order to convince someone that God heals, there needs to be some common ground. Such as both of us believing Genesis 1:1. Both of us believing that Jesus Christ died on a cross to pay for our sin, and rose from the dead on the third day, etc. In other words.

Again, a catch-22.

I see no common ground. To continue this discussion I would need to be well versed in Monty Python logic, and...well, we have no common ground there either.

Excuse me?

 

[Veritas]

I've heard and read testimonies of people recieving back lost limbs. I'll dig around and find them for ya Featherbop.

 

[Featherbop]

Couldn't find anything? Me either. It has a been a few weeks, that should have been sufficient time.

I conclude for now that there are no medical miracles; everything found thus far is explainable by natural means with no evidence of the supernatural.

By all means, if anyone finds good evidence of something miraculous, please bump the thread...

 

[Slevin]

I've heard and read testimonies of people recieving back lost limbs. I'll dig around and find them for ya Featherbop.

Hehehe....having trouble?

 

[Atonement]

Would you consider Exorcisms to be a form of healing from the power of prayer etc? Oh I'm sure I could probably find something on that

 

[Featherbop]

Would you consider Exorcisms to be a form of healing from the power of prayer etc? Oh I'm sure I could probably find something on that

Nope, I need something tangible like a limb being regenerated naturally. Exorcism is too nebulous and easy to be faked, and even supposing that conditions that are called possessions exist and are corrected, that doesn't leave any room for showing something normally impossible being done.

For anyone who is interested, I am looking for tangible evidence of the miraculous(in this case, a medical miracle, something that defies physical possibility), such as

Naturally regeneration of limbs...because it shows something that the human body is not able to heal and opens up a possibility of the supernatural.

What is not helpful are examples such as

Cancer being healed...because the human body is able to defeat cancer on its own. This does not open up the possibility of the supernatural.

 

[Atonement]

Yeah.. Good luck with that

People have said there is scientific evidence to prove the 10 plaques in Egypt also. If I could provide evidence that it was a miracle from God, you would probably explain it in scientific terms.. What's the point here?

You remind me of Doubting Thomas, you won't believe until you see it. As I said though.. Good luck with that!