Faith without works........is Faith.

[Qchan]

Not if I myself depart from the living God, by having a deceitful heart of unbelief.

If I like a dog that returns to its own vomit, decide to return to the pollutions of this world, that I escaped from through the knowledge of Jesus Christ, then it would have been better for me to never hear the Gospel and be set free, for the end will be worse for me.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 2 Peter 2:20

JLB

Sorry. You cannot lose your salvation

 

[JLB]

Sorry. You cannot lose your salvation

Sorry, your opinion does not over rule the clear and plain scriptures which you continually ignore.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:20-21

JLB

 

[Qchan]

Sorry, your opinion does not over rule the clear and plain scriptures which you continually ignore.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:20-21

JLB

Alright, I don't think you're going to win this one over. The bible is rather clear on eternal salvation. So, here's my question to you.

Do you NOT want there to be eternal salvation? Why do you fight this message so much?

 

[JohnD]

Faith without works is Faith.

I agree with your assessment. Faith without works is dead does not mean without salvation. It is an expression to convey the extreme uselessness of one who gets saved to only give back their own salvation when the Lord judges on the BEMA seat.

I may not be the tie grabbing evangelist I once was, but all my teaching is to build up the body Christian and to hopefully win souls to at least consider the faith. So, this is not (like the cults say) motivation to knock on doors every Saturday (but to some Christians it MAY be their calling).

Remember also, that ANY good you do (once you are a believer) is an act of righteousness (your act, but Christ's righteousness imputed to your account).

 

[Edward]

Alright, I don't think you're going to win this one over. The bible is rather clear on eternal salvation. So, here's my question to you.

Do you NOT want there to be eternal salvation? Why do you fight this message so much?

Brother, i know that you weren't addressing me, but I couldn't resist on this.

Wow, who wouldn't want there to be salvation without ever being able to lose it?! That'd be great! We've tossed this around before about OSAS. I used to believe in OSAS but someone whipped out a scripture on me that made me go hmm.

The scripture is

Revelation 22:19
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book./

It says if any man, so what we have here is a warning to all. Jesus said that there will be a day when people come to Him and say Lord Lord didn't I do things in your name and He says depart from me...

So some people think they are Christians (saved), but will not be on the day and will come as a genuine surprise to them probably. In another place in scripture it is written to...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling...What's that mean brother? What's to fear if you receive the Lord and are saved and can't lose it?

In fact, the thing He says most often in the bible is DON'T fear. Except for the parts which say the beginning of wisdom is the fear of God. So there's that, lol.

If OSAS is true then those things don't make sense. Fear God why?
If OSAS is not true then these passages make perfect sense.
There's another place in scripture where someone prayed that his enemies would be blotted out of the book of life (Psalm 69:28). Now him praying for this doesn't necessarily mean its true or happened but it expresses the thought and possibility so maybe he knew something we dont?

I find myself leaning towards fearing God since it pretty much told us that's the first thing to do, the beginning, of wisdom. and work it out with real fear and trembling because this is very real. It's a respect and honor thing to I believe.

 

[Kidron]

This is a principle.

Your master is the one you obey.

you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16


JLB

Thats true.
If you sin willingly and continue to reject Christ, then you are committing the sin that is leading to death.
If you by faith receive the "gift of righteousness", then God now sees you as justified and you have "obeyed" the gospel and your eternal life is now eternally secure "in Christ".

 

[Qchan]

Brother, i know that you weren't addressing me, but I couldn't resist on this.

Wow, who wouldn't want there to be salvation without ever being able to lose it?! That'd be great! We've tossed this around before about OSAS. I used to believe in OSAS but someone whipped out a scripture on me that made me go hmm.

The scripture is

Revelation 22:19
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book./

It says if any man, so what we have here is a warning to all. Jesus said that there will be a day when people come to Him and say Lord Lord didn't I do things in your name and He says depart from me...

So some people think they are Christians (saved), but will not be on the day and will come as a genuine surprise to them probably. In another place in scripture it is written to...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling...What's that mean brother? What's to fear if you receive the Lord and are saved and can't lose it?

In fact, the thing He says most often in the bible is DON'T fear. Except for the parts which say the beginning of wisdom is the fear of God. So there's that, lol.

If OSAS is true then those things don't make sense. Fear God why?
If OSAS is not true then these passages make perfect sense.
There's another place in scripture where someone prayed that his enemies would be blotted out of the book of life (Psalm 69:28). Now him praying for this doesn't necessarily mean its true or happened but it expresses the thought and possibility so maybe he knew something we dont?

I find myself leaning towards fearing God since it pretty much told us that's the first thing to do, the beginning, of wisdom. and work it out with real fear and trembling because this is very real. It's a respect and honor thing to I believe.

You're going to heaven, regardless of what you say. You believe in Jesus Christ, and for your faith, its been counted as righteousness. It's not based on anything you've done (Romans 4:5). Righteousness is a free gift (Ephesians 2:8-10). So, if its a free gift that's been given to you not based on anything you do, then why is it that this free gift can be taken away from you based on what you do? It's a contradiction.

You're preaching a perverted gospel, and the bible says you're cursed because of it (Galatians 1:8-9).

 

[Christ_empowered]

...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Philipians 2:12-13. I think salvation involves more than a sinner's prayer.

 

[Kidron]

...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Philipians 2:12-13. I think salvation involves more than a sinner's prayer.

Yes, continue to "work out"., to walk in the knowledge of the truth that you have been saved and are now a new creation, etc.
This does not mean to work FOR salvation.
And a "sinner's prayer", is exactly what God accepts and nothing less and nothing more for "salvation".
Salvation, is not what we do after we are saved....its what God does through Christ to SAVE us.
So, let be clear that its not a 2 part Blood atonement with Christ dying .....and then you working for it so that you get to run around talking about how you faith is not dead so that you can feel that you are helping God out to save yourself or make yourself righteous..
We dont add to the finished work of the Cross........we dont finish it for Christ, we only receive it by Faith.
Whats comes next, is "discipleship", which is the process of working out your salvation, but not the process of keeping it.

 

[Christ_empowered]

yeah, but...the Barna group (www.barna.org) keeps tabs on Christians in America. They have some seriously well-trained statisticians and social scientists on staff, as best I can tell.

There are apparently lots of Born Again Christians in America who don't have the Christian Worldview--Satan is real, salvation through Christ alone, Heaven is real, salvation is a gift,etc.--that seem fairly fundamental to any Protestant Christian worldview.

Is that a lack of discipleship, or is that a lot of people who simply aren't truly saved? Does it mean we now have lots of churches "proclaiming a form of godliness, but lacking the power thereof," maybe?

I know that believing upon Christ is the Big Step, but it seems that genuine conversion should be marked by changes in behavior, right?

Keep in mind, I'm not really debating--Baby Christian here--I'm just trying to put it all together.

 

[Deborah13]

If OSAS is true then those things don't make sense. Fear God why?

Because of His rod. I don't much like being chastised. Even so I am grateful He will do that.
When you were a kid did you fear your dad's disapproval and punishment. I don't believe OSAS but it wouldn't matter if I did. imo, that type of fear is respect, honor, and reverence, knowing what He could and will do to straighten us out so that we "fulfill His good purpose."
So I don't believe that verse supports that one can lose their salvation.

 

[JLB]

Alright, I don't think you're going to win this one over. The bible is rather clear on eternal salvation. So, here's my question to you.

Do you NOT want there to be eternal salvation? Why do you fight this message so much?

Because it's a false doctrine that breeds sin and immorality, while lulling people into the snare of death.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2 Peter 2:20-21


it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it,

Clear and plain irrefutable truth fro

Thats true.
If you sin willingly and continue to reject Christ, then you are committing the sin that is leading to death.
If you by faith receive the "gift of righteousness", then God now sees you as justified and you have "obeyed" the gospel and your eternal life is now eternally secure "in Christ".

These that Peter writes did not reject Christ, but had received the Way of righteousness and had escaped the corrupting pollutions of the world...

These that Peter writes about, had escaped the pollutions of the world and "knew" (experienced) the way of righteousness, but had turned from it, (repented back).

They knew and experience the way of righteousness, and turn back to the way of the world and its pollutions.

Peter says it would have been better for them to not have known the way of righteousness...

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2 Peter 2:20-21


it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it,

Paul also warns these Christians about practicing the works of the flesh and not inheriting the kingdom on the day of judgement.

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10


JLB

 

[Qchan]

Because it's a false doctrine that breeds sin and immorality, while lulling people into the snare of death.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2 Peter 2:20-21


it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it,

Clear and plain irrefutable truth fro



JLB

So... A man is justified by faith and not of works. Yet, a man can lose justification because of works? You don't see a problem with that?

 

[LovethroughDove]

So... A man is justified by faith and not of works. Yet, a man can lose justification because of works? You don't see a problem with that?

I'm gonna pop in here again. It is not because we are doing works, just to do them. Jesus says if you love him, you will do what he says.

John 14:23-24 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

We are doing "something" obeying what he has said. It is out of our love of Jesus that we (do).

 

[Qchan]

I'm gonna pop in here again. It is not because we are doing works, just to do them. Jesus says if you love him, you will do what he says.

John 14:23-24 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

We are doing "something" obeying what he has said. It is out of our love of Jesus that we (do).

Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV) says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

You are justified through faith and not of works, yet you can lose justification because of works? That doesn't make sense.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV) says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

You are justified through faith and not of works, yet you can lose justification because of works? That doesn't make sense.

I think you are not seeing that I said it is not doing works because you are doing works. You are doing things because you love him and you know that every word that comes out of his mouth is serious.

Luke 11:28 He (Jesus) replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word and obey it."

Right before he made this statement he told the parable about getting rid of an evil spirit in a person's house (body), and once the house is cleaned out (made holy).........and how that spirit that left goes to find even more evil spirits so it can get back in the house (body)

This is where you have to keep letting the Holy Spirit guide you in your steps, or even more evil spirit will try to get in.

There are people who snuff out the Holy Spirit.

 

[Qchan]

I think you are not seeing that I said it is not doing works because you are doing works. You are doing things because you love him and you know that every word that comes out of his mouth is serious.

Luke 11:28 He (Jesus) replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word and obey it."

Right before he made this statement he told the parable about getting rid of an evil spirit in a person's house (body), and once the house is cleaned out (made holy).........and how that spirit that left goes to find even more evil spirits so it can get back in the house (body)

This is where you have to keep letting the Holy Spirit guide you in your steps, or even more evil spirit will try to get in.

There are people who snuff out the Holy Spirit.

Ah, OK. Well, I agree that good works naturally springs forth due to faith. I'm a major proponent of that. However, JLB is not.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Ah, OK. Well, I agree that good works naturally springs forth due to faith. I'm a major proponent of that. However, JLB is not.

I think he may be?

 

[Chopper]

God counts your faith as Righteousness.
He counts your works as works.
If your good deeds could win heaven for you, then Jesus could have saved himself some trouble.
So, if you want to separate Salvation from Discipleship, then that is fine.....as one is something that God does for you for free, when you BELIEVE THE GOSPEL, that saves you, and the other is what you should do, as a disciple, subsequent to your being "born again".
However, being a disciple has nothing to do with Salvation, as the New Birth is an exclusive operation performed by the Holy Spirit in your inner man as a Gift from God, and is separate from your "works".
Salvation is God's work in you and for you, and it has not anything to do with you doing something to earn it or keep it.

Wow! I don't know what all the fuss is about. You are absolutely right when you say that works are not necessary for Salvation. Works are the result of Salvation. The righteousness that we receive from Christ Jesus shows up in righteous works, all inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is, FAITH in Jesus as Lord and Savior for the forgiveness of sins. Water Baptism as the first WORK of obedience. Faith in the Christ of God then leads us to follow God's will for our new life which leads to WORKS of righteousness....Quite simple really.

 

[Qchan]

I think he may be?

He claimed he simply didn't believe. This is what I honestly do not understand. I mean, if one believes in Jesus Christ, then one will naturally love him. When you love Jesus Christ, you can't help but do good works.